You promised us communication, where is it?

[razark]

8 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

ignoring the dates

Nate's update: 15:55 30 June 2023

Dakota's clarification: 16:21 30 June 2023

Less than half an hour.

 

Some post complaining that they did exactly what they said they would: 21 September 2023

Almost 3 months to come to terms with it... and yet, here we are.

[regex]

21 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

This is you assuming their work pace and productivity.

No, not at all. I have no idea what their work pace is but considering the amount of vacation being mentioned I think it would be pretty nice to work there, comparable to my job at least.

21 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

Maybe if people stopped constructing arguments from erroneous facts [snip] then people would stop bringing those things up.

God, that sure would be great, wouldn't it?

21 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

You talk as if deadlines and spec sheets are things of the devil.

As a software developer myself, yes, deadlines absolutely are the devil. They completely ignore reality and ruin the quality of my work/life balance.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Vanamonde

[PDCWolf]

Just now, razark said:

Nate's update: 15:55 30 June 2023

Dakota's clarification: 16:21 30 June 2023

Less than half an hour.

 

Some post complaining that they did exactly what they said they would: 21 September 2023

Almost 3 months to come to terms with it... and yet, here we are.

Good, this clearly means you didn't look at a single one of the sources I linked.

Hotfix 1.3.1 was posted on June 27. You can see some people in that thread hoping hotfixes are a continued practice, and of course this feeling was echoed on twitter and Reddit, and dare I say the discord without being there. Only 3 days later would they clarify.

Just now, regex said:

No, not at all. I have no idea what their work pace is but considering the amount of vacation being mentioned I think it would be pretty nice to work there, comparable to my job at least.

God, that sure would be great, wouldn't it?

As a software developer myself, yes, deadlines absolutely are the devil. They completely ignore reality and ruin the quality of my work/life balance.

I can agree on the first and second. The third one... yeah, from my experience outside devving, developing software seems probably the only place where you can say no to deadlines. Other jobs get you fired.

[regex]

1 minute ago, PDCWolf said:

developing software seems probably the only place where you can say no to deadlines. Other jobs get you fired.

Which is hilarious because the last thing I want (for instance) is someone rushing to complete a structure that needs to be mechanically sound.

[razark]

1 minute ago, PDCWolf said:

Good, this clearly means you didn't look at a single one of the sources I linked.

Sigh.

Ok, so the phrase "Hotfix Summer" was used on the 30th, which is what you referenced in your post earlier.  Less than half an hour later, it was clarified that only two hotfixes were expected.  Yet you still posted today that there were only two hotfixes released during "Hotfix Summer".

 

That's what this is about.  Not about anyone else's expectations prior to the use of "Hotfix Summer" and the clarification about it.  That's completely irrelevant to the subject.  It's about your expectation or desire for more hotfixes after being told there weren't, as well as complaints that the company isn't clearly communicating while demonstrating the exact problem of ignoring what they say and inserting your own meaning.

[Stoup]

22 minutes ago, regex said:

Which is hilarious because the last thing I want (for instance) is someone rushing to complete a structure that needs to be mechanically sound.

Well, it's wandering into off-topic, but...

They had many years to work on this game, and it seems to be that (while you can argue that there is quite a bit of content in the KSP2 EA release) NOT rushing doesn't leave us with a mechanically sound structure either.

To get more to a reasonable point, maybe some of the community managers could spice things up every now and again and give us their attempts to fulfill the challenges they put out, or engage with the community in some way by playing the game and sharing it! In whatever form that may take. I feel sarcastic saying that given the state of the game but I do mean it genuinely

[PDCWolf]

19 minutes ago, regex said:

Which is hilarious because the last thing I want (for instance) is someone rushing to complete a structure that needs to be mechanically sound.

Ah yes, gamedev compares his job to one where lives are a stake. I've seen this one before.

14 minutes ago, razark said:

Sigh.

Ok, so the phrase "Hotfix Summer" was used on the 30th, which is what you referenced in your post earlier.  Less than half an hour later, it was clarified that only two hotfixes were expected.  Yet you still posted today that there were only two hotfixes released during "Hotfix Summer".

 

That's what this is about.  Not about anyone else's expectations prior to the use of "Hotfix Summer" and the clarification about it.  That's completely irrelevant to the subject.  It's about your expectation or desire for more hotfixes after being told there weren't, as well as complaints that the company isn't clearly communicating while demonstrating the exact problem of ignoring what they say and inserting your own meaning.

The phrase

5 hours ago, razark said:

You're unhappy that they said they didn't expect to do more than two hotfixes, and then did two hotfixes.

does not suggest to me the argument should be contained to that one post by Nate, after all we're already considering a clarification by Dakota as well. They did one post about a hotfix, then 3 days later made a post about hotfixes, then half an hour later they clarified that they weren't gonna do more than 2 hotfixes.

Even if we do stick to that 30 minute timeframe, there was already people expecting more hotfixes [1][2][3]

[razark]

2 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

does not suggest to me the argument should be contained to that one post by Nate

Ok, read through this post:

7 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

Welcome everyone to Fall! Hotfix Summer is over!

Stats:

• Hotfixes launched during Hotfix Summer: 2
• Time from update 1.3.0 to hotfix 1.3.1: 5 days.
• Time from hotfix 1.3.1 to hotfix 1.3.2: 14 days.
• Total bugs fixed with hotfixes launched during Hotfix Summer: 4

Thank you all for participating on what's been yet another PR stunt with next to nothing to show for it.

The post references the "Hotfix Summer" post.  It does not refer to any of the posts from the preceding three days, three months, three years, three hour tours, whatever.  It references a single post.

The clarification came within half an hour, after three posts expressing a desire for more hotfixes and one question if there would be more.  I'd say that's working pretty quick to handle expectations.

 

But that's still beside the point that all of this was said months ago, well before you complained about them releasing two hotfixes when they said they were going to release hotfixes.

 

 

9 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Even if we do stick to that 30 minute timeframe, there was already people expecting more hotfixes [1][2][3]

Actually, none of those state any expectation that there will be more hotfixes, simply that they would like more, and one direct question of whether there would be more.  But again, those were within the half hour before the clarification, and not almost three months later, so, kind of not really relevant to keep bringing up.

[regex]

17 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Ah yes, gamedev compares his job to one where lives are a stake. I've seen this one before.

Where the hell did that happen? Maybe read what I wrote again and try parsing it, I'm all in favor of people NOT getting fired in professions other than development for refusing or bucking deadlines.

I'm no game dev, I do business software where mistakes can cost money in real time and get fixed in real time, and I've done my share of "62 hours in four days"-style crunches where my kid is asking if I'm still actually working to meet a deadline some idiot in product management thought was a good idea to promise to our customers but failed to prioritize in the normal sprints, and I do work extra on occasion to get stuff out the door. My point is that kind of stuff isn't sustainable; it gets people looking for other jobs, leads to burnout very quickly, and quite frequently results in even more bugs due to inattention fatigue that a game like KSP2 really doesn't need any more of.

Edited September 21, 2023 by regex

[Alexoff]

1 hour ago, MechBFP said:

If your complaint is that they haven’t released any videos for any major features when they haven’t released any major features yet, well….

Yes, that’s exactly what I wrote and gave an example of a video on a feature that they are still preparing to release in December. This is a million times better than one obscure screenshot and blurry phrases.

58 minutes ago, regex said:

As a software developer myself, yes, deadlines absolutely are the devil. They completely ignore reality and ruin the quality of my work/life balance.

Deadlines? Maybe managers who know nothing about who will do the work and how?

[PDCWolf]

3 minutes ago, razark said:

I'd say that's working pretty quick to handle expectations.

I said it too. THAT is managing expectations. Sad that it had to be a clarification instead of a well worded original post.

3 minutes ago, razark said:

But that's still beside the point that all of this was said months ago, well before you complained about them releasing two hotfixes when they said they were going to release hotfixes.

Ok, let's word it this way: Should we take that one clarification from Dakota as meaning no more hotfixes ever (even during summer)? Because that's what it looks like even though I'm sure we agree there's still pretty critical bugs in, and the K.E.R.B. lists some bugfixes (not the same) as already implemented.

3 minutes ago, razark said:

Actually, none of those state any expectation that there will be more hotfixes, simply that they would like more, and one direct question of whether there would be more.

Lmao, good to know we now have a "they didn't say promise" but for the community's posts.

Just now, regex said:

Where the hell did that happen? Maybe read what I wrote again and try parsing it, I'm all in favor of people NOT getting fired in professions other than development for refusing or bucking deadlines.

I'm no game dev, I do business software where mistakes can cost money in real time and get fixed in real time, and I've done my share of "62 hours in four days"-style crunches where my kid is asking if I'm still actually working to meet a deadline some idiot in product management thought was a good idea to promise to our customers, and I do work extra on occasion to get stuff out the door. My point is that kind of stuff isn't sustainable; it gets people looking for other jobs, leads to burnout very quickly, and quite frequently results in even more bugs due to inattention fatigue that a game like KSP2 really doesn't need any more of.

I worded it wrong, my fault. Meant to say gamedev in general, not by any means a personal attack.

As for bringing KSP2 into the discussion of crunch, I really don't think anyone believes IG to be working at full capacity and nearing or being crunched. If they really are, and if what we're seeing now is really the maximum output of a crunched Intercept Games... the implications are certainly not good for the public eye.

[razark]

6 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Should we take that one clarification from Dakota as meaning no more hotfixes ever...? Because that's what it looks like...

No, we should take it as they don't intend to release any more hotfixes.  They intend to release patches with updates and bugfixes as development proceeds.  Intending to release more hotfixes would imply that they are also planning to release more broken patches, which is clearly absurd unless one takes the position that they are doing whatever they are doing out of malice.

10 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Lmao, good to know we now have a "they didn't say promise" but for the community's posts.

"I want cheese" does not in any way equate to "I expect someone is going to bring me some cheese".

 

But anyway, the original point was the complaint that they did exactly what they said they would and now we're here spinning in circles again, so... have a nice day.

[regex]

17 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

As for bringing KSP2 into the discussion of crunch, I really don't think anyone believes IG to be working at full capacity and nearing or being crunched.

Probably not and IMO that's a really good thing. I'd much rather they take their time to ensure we don't get additional bugs and that future features have as few hiccups as possible, and ensure that the team stays fresh so when they run into an obstacle or need to issue a hotfix it gets done quickly by attentive developers. Naturally that's just me, I'm pretty patient about all this, but the bottom line is that IG is going to work the way they think is best, the only people they ultimately have to answer to is Take Two and no one in the community should really have any say over IG's jobs or pace (beyond whether you buy or not, or refund).

Edited September 21, 2023 by regex

[MechBFP]

19 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

Yes, that’s exactly what I wrote and gave an example of a video on a feature that they are still preparing to release in December. This is a million times better than one obscure screenshot and blurry phrases.

How about having that complaint when the next major feature actually has a scheduled release date and they don’t release any video before it is released instead?

Seems more reasonable than getting upset at make believe scenarios. 

[Alexoff]

9 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

How about having that complaint when the next major feature actually has a scheduled release date and they don’t release any video before it is released instead?

Seems more reasonable than getting upset at make believe scenarios. 

Maybe then we can imagine that the same game from 2019 has been ready for a long time and T2 and Nate are just mocking us? They take the same game, remove features from it, add bugs and laugh evilly at the whole of Seattle! But I'm afraid I won't be able to drink enough alcohol to believe this.

And I have no doubt that there is a deadline. It just might give some fans a heart attack. It’s good that the developers take care of us and don’t say that science will only come out in ***er 202...

[MechBFP]

19 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

Maybe then we can imagine that the same game from 2019 has been ready for a long time and T2 and Nate are just mocking us? They take the same game, remove features from it, add bugs and laugh evilly at the whole of Seattle! But I'm afraid I won't be able to drink enough alcohol to believe this.

And I have no doubt that there is a deadline. It just might give some fans a heart attack. It’s good that the developers take care of us and don’t say that science will only come out in ***er 202...

Not sure how any of that is relevant to what you quoted?

[Alexoff]

6 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

Not sure how any of that is relevant to what you quoted?

This is about as relevant as releasing videos after features are released, rather than before.

[Stephensan]

1 hour ago, Stoup said:

Well, it's wandering into off-topic, but...

They had many years to work on this game, and it seems to be that (while you can argue that there is quite a bit of content in the KSP2 EA release) NOT rushing doesn't leave us with a mechanically sound structure either.

To get more to a reasonable point, maybe some of the community managers could spice things up every now and again and give us their attempts to fulfill the challenges they put out, or engage with the community in some way by playing the game and sharing it! In whatever form that may take. I feel sarcastic saying that given the state of the game but I do mean it genuinely

couldn't say it any better.

[PDCWolf]

35 minutes ago, regex said:

Probably not and IMO that's a really good thing. I'd much rather they take their time to ensure we don't get additional bugs and that future features have as few hiccups as possible, and ensure that the team stays fresh so when they run into an obstacle or need to issue a hotfix it gets done quickly by attentive developers.

This sounds reasonable and even obvious... Until you remember where we are now. These kind of statements will always elicit the always repeated argument as it is the clear consensus of the most people that updates have been either slow, late, or broken, and in some cases all 3. Mind you this isn't me supporting or enabling crunch, since again, we don't know.

For example, I think telling them they can take even longer is laughable, specially since it's become clear that for them, time does not translate into a better product (i.e. the 3 delays).

You are obviously free to have your patience, I even commend it.

37 minutes ago, razark said:

Intending to release more hotfixes would imply that they are also planning to release more broken patchesso... have a nice day.

The game and its updates already are broken. There's nothing to imply.

Not launching more hotfixes also doesn't mean they'll take the time to make better patches, that clearly goes against reality. Let me remind you the update that had the hotfixes is the first one since they said they were slowing down for more QA and better updates.

[MechBFP]

7 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

This is about as relevant as releasing videos after features are released, rather than before.

I literally have no idea what you are talking about since you are not making any sense  

Can anyone translate who does understand?

[Pthigrivi]

I have this coworker who has a few roles because we're a small firm and part of it is IT and and he really seems to relish in loudly berating tech support folks who are trying to help him, to little effect.  Everyone else in the office has to have real conversations about actual business while rolling our eyes at the stream of expletives from the other room. Sidebar:  One time I had a Macbook that was 3 years and 2 weeks old, but Apple had (possibly deliberately) failed to notify older owners that laptops have a humidity problem that in the end compromises monitors and the motherboard. It took a couple of weeks of calling, but eventually I was able--with determined, polite conversations with tech support, to have the recall covered under Applecare. Im sure there's a macro-strategy of waging a social media campaign against a particular company which might raise the heat enough to make its way into an actual upper-management meeting. Maybe Im more cynical than some imagine but I don't think they much care. At that level your [complaints] about bugs and communication is weighed against investor demands and you will absolutely lose. There's a famous scene in the life-lesson that is The Wire wherein Bunny Colvin declares: “Middle management means that you got just enough responsibility to listen when people talk, but not so much you can't tell anybody to go [snip] themselves.”

For those of you using fellow forum members as a prop in a theatrical pressure campaign against a subsidiary of a multi-billion dollar multinational corporation this is who you actually want to direct your attention to. Please don't waste your time bickering with hopeful fans. We have our own campaign: to as best we can accurately and conceptually  convey to the actual makers of this game what real meaning, quality, and value translates to in concrete deliverable terms in the context of KSP. 
 

Edited September 22, 2023 by Vanamonde

[Alexoff]

45 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

I literally have no idea what you are talking about since you are not making any sense  

Can anyone translate who does understand?

Remember that?

  

3 hours ago, MechBFP said:

If your complaint is that they haven’t released any videos for any major features when they haven’t released any major features yet, well….

 

[Superfluous J]

13 hours ago, Alexoff said:

How interesting, you are active on the forum and have your own opinion, but you haven’t even played KSP2?

I do both of the first two, yes, while not having done the third.

If you read back though you'll see I have no opinions of KSP2. Just of how to treat other human beings.

Edited September 21, 2023 by Superfluous J

[AtomicTech]

On 9/16/2023 at 1:06 PM, Alexoff said:

What do we owe to the developers? Should we be polite, courteous and patient with them?

That's the expectation; they've undertaken a monumental task.

5 hours ago, Stoup said:

ive us their attempts to fulfill the challenges they put out, or engage with the community in some way by playing the game and sharing it

That would be amazing 

Imagine tuning into @DakotaTV?

I'd gladly do so

[didkodidko]

10 hours ago, AtomicTech said:

That's the expectation; they've undertaken a monumental task.

Reminder that Starship was a metal sketch when KSP2 was about to be released. Starship is monumental task, KSP2 is based on something that was already done and had a great community feedback, yet they don't how to do it.

It's pure incompetence.