What happened to increased communication?

[Fizzlebop Smith]

6 hours ago, MechBFP said:

It is hard to put into words what exactly I am feeling regarding their communication to date, but the terms “consistency”, “accuracy”, “reliability”, “lip-service”, “honesty”, “quality”, and “intentions” would all play into a rather lengthy post if I was going to get into it over the years. I think the main point is that their overall communication has been all over the map that it is pretty difficult to take anything they say at face value anymore and that won’t change without them maintaining a base level of consistency. 

This esse tially sums up my inner dialogue.. no debate.

I have sooo much love for the original KSP1 and want to have patience.

 

I just have to keep telling myself. My favorite features of KSP1 were 3rd party editions. 

I don't think the developers truly want feedback. I feel there is a desire for accolades & recognition. 

 

For Science brought the steam reviews up...but there is a clear break on those in the community that feel disappointed & those that feel KSP2 is already superior.

I think they were hoping for a more resounding "great job". 

I could be wrong and it could all boil down to a lack of firm & clear leadership.

[Icegrx]

By the time anything gets done, there will be no one left to get excited about it. 
 

I’ll come back here in 6 months to checkup I guess. 

[Stephensan]

 

just a small thing dakota has done this week alone, communication requires more people a decent talk today with them on discord (dakota and darrin) they wish to have more CM's to help workload but he would rather have the resources spent elsewhere.

and finally, dakota somewhat ratio of workload he has to do until April 1st (then it MIGHT change)

 

hopefully there will be less stuff on dakotas plate when mike is back..

 

 

also

 

Just because dakota said he is working on it doesn't mean its coming soon

just shows what is needed for a single person in a week, and there is more that is missing from that list.

 

why none of this was in dev tracker...

 

and finally dakota said he will do this once in a while telling what he did that week

 

increased communication

 

[RaBDawG]

19 minutes ago, Stephensan said:

 

just a small thing dakota has done this week alone, communication requires more people a decent talk today with them on discord (dakota and darrin) they wish to have more CM's to help workload but he would rather have the resources spent elsewhere.

and finally, dakota somewhat ratio of workload he has to do until April 1st (then it MIGHT change)

 

hopefully there will be less stuff on dakotas plate when mike is back..

 

 

also

 

Just because dakota said he is working on it doesn't mean its coming soon

just shows what is needed for a single person in a week, and there is more that is missing from that list.

 

why none of this was in dev tracker...

 

and finally dakota said he will do this once in a while telling what he did that week

 

increased communication

 

Found Dakota's burner :0)

[Stephensan]

32 minutes ago, RaBDawG said:

Found Dakota's burner :0)

doing dakotas work :3

[The Aziz]

There will still be people who'd say "so how long it's all gonna take, two hours in a week?"

[Casellina X]

20 hours ago, Stephensan said:

Just because dakota said he is working on it doesn't mean its coming soon

just shows what is needed for a single person in a week, and there is more that is missing from that list.

I dunno man... I look at this and I can't help but take any of this as Dakota is working on it, so it's coming soon.

[Flush Foot]

Soon™

[Dakota]

28 minutes ago, Casellina X said:

I dunno man... I look at this and I can't help but take any of this as Dakota is working on it, so it's coming soon.

pls

[Stephensan]

18 minutes ago, Dakota said:

pls

pov you 

 

[Scarecrow71]

I originally posted the following in the April Fool's Day thread about converting to imperial units.  However, to avoid turning that thread into another one like this, I'm moving the post here so, in the event people want to discuss it, they can do so in this thread, where it belongs.

 

A lot has been made of the development teams (coders, artists, etc.) not having anything to do with communicating with the community, and I'll say up front that I agree with that statement.  No, I do not want the developers to sit around and talk on the forums or Discord all day long; they have a game to write, for pete's sake.  I'd rather they spend their time on the clock coding, or drawing, or whatever it is they need to do to get the game done.  Go.  Please.

With that said, it is the job of the Community Managers to interact and engage with the community.  As far as EA goes, it should be their job to engage with us and let us know exactly what is happening with the development of the game.  Yes, this involves interviewing the developers, and compiling lists of bugs, and all the other stuff that goes along with that.  But it is their literal job to interact with the community, and the issue here is that instead of the CM's doing this, they are worrying about things that the community quite frankly as a whole doesn't care about.  This leads me to believe that one of the following 2 situations is true:

1. The CM's are understaffed and overworked to the point where they simply cannot interact in meaningful ways.  Dakota is on his own right now as Mike is off on paternity leave (and coming back this month, I think?), and the organization either hired but has not trained the new person they posted for months ago OR they simply decided not to do it.  And this is on top of all of the vacation and time off that was taken over the holidays.  If this is the case, if it is a situation where Dakota simply does not have the time to effectively do his job and interact with the community in thoughtful and meaningful ways, then I have to ask why he has the time to come up with weekly challenges and joke threads.  I get that those things may be part of his job, but we have begged for more meaningful communication and have not gotten it.  Does he not have time to ask the developers where they are at?  Do the CM's not have the ability or authority to ask the artists what they have drawn up lately?  Has Nate decided that he doesn't need to give interviews to the CM's or host AMA's any longer?  And if this is all the case, why hasn't the company hired more CM's to help alleviate the strain on Dakota?  It's either this, or...
2. The developers honestly have nothing to show or discuss at this point.  And if this is the case, there's a whole box of Lego's that need to be unpacked with this.  Because, quite frankly, how can you be 6 years into development, and 1 year+ into early access, and have nothing to discuss?  We have bugs that have been persistent since launch, promises made both before and during launch that haven't been met, and yet they have nothing to divulge?  Bug reports that aren't discussed but end up in the archive with no explanation, and no talking about them?  The company hired 2 of the best and brightest minds from the KSP1 mod community to help write this game, and you've got nothing to show at this point?  For Science! dropped almost 4 months ago, and since then we've seen like 1 or 2 images of what might be in colonies, but you have no words to go with that?  Where are we at on the road map as far as colonies goes?  I know you can't give any dates, but are we even close?  And those images of gigantic parts in space - are they going to be in the game, and if so, how do we get them up into space?  Where are we at with all those bugs for months you just keep saying "Researching"?  On those bugs you are looking for additional feedback on - what do you need from us to help you?  What information are you looking for that we haven't already provided?  And what do you say to those people - like myself - who have mid-range equipment and are supposed to see performance increases but aren't?  (Side note - anything greater than 200 parts on my rig drops my FPS to 10.  In orbit.  32 GB RAM, 2060 Super, Ryzen 9 3900 12 core.  Tell me again how performance has gotten better.)

It's no secret that I have been very vocal about where I think the game is at, and where it is headed.  I've complained enough, so I'm trying not to do more of the same here (even though I'm sure this will all still be seen as complaining).  But I want this game to succeed.  I want this game to outplay, outperform, and outlast the original.  I do not want to have to see the community come together and have the modders create KSP3.  Nobody wants that.  We shouldn't even have to float that idea, to be honest.

But enough.  Enough of the joke threads.  Enough of the weekly challenges.  Enough of the silence.  We have held up our end of the bargain here in EA by not only shelling out the cost of the full release game, but we've been up front and honest with you about bugs, feedback, and telling you what it is we want.  We are simply asking for the company to hold up their end.  Too much damage has been done over this, but we are still willing to overlook that and give you back our trust if you would simply communicate with us and let us know where this whole thing stands.  No corp-speak, no double meanings, no half-truths.  Just be honest.  We will understand.  Heck, we've been understanding for the better part of a decade now; honesty will only help to repair the relationship.

[Presto200]

The real problem is that the developers have NDAs when it comes to the future additions to the game, I think this is the main reason we don't get the communication we want. I think that our concern that there is "nothing to report" is more like there's nothing they CAN report. I think intercept games needs to rethink how strict their NDAs are on the developers so that the hype for the game can continue and the trust with us players can build strong again. I speculate  closer to 65-70% of work on the day to day are on future features (colonies/interstellar/resources) since the majority of completely game breaking bugs have been squashed (not to say there aren't any left). Sadly the new things are what they can't release information on even the smallest things because of NDAs. I think the KERBs used to be an okay way of showing the bugs they were working on but it would be nice to get more even short dev diary videos just of what they are trying to do to deal with them. Even getting a rundown on what the process is when going through bugs so we could understand why they take so long to release each patch. Just knowledge of how day to day works around the office would be nice so we dont just think everyone is sitting on their hands. Idk just my thoughts 

P.S. this is very badly typed sorry, just trying to be quick

 

[Presto200]

I saw that @Nerdy_Mike is back on the team after paternity leave. I wasn't active on the forums before he left but I'm glad to see another CM to help out Dakota. I do hope there is a bigger emphasis on being on the forums. Discord seems to get engagement everyday and I would love to see that on the forums too. Even if that engagement isn't necessarily about development, it would make the gap between player and developer feel smaller. Also the on the forums are easier to go back and see what was said while you were away, when I try to go to discord to see what might have been said by Dakota it's difficult to go back even one day sometimes. Anyway I am hopeful for the community engagement now that Mike is back. So all that being said welcome back Mike and can't wait to get to know you like Dakota   

[Flush Foot]

10 minutes ago, Presto200 said:

the forums are easier to go back and see what was said while you were away, when I try to go to discord to see what might have been said by Dakota it's difficult to go back even one day sometimes

I know there is the Dev_Tracker 'feed' on Discord, but it seems to have fewer instances of Dakota's messages than if you sifted through the never-ending avalanche of 'general' messages. 

[Presto200]

23 minutes ago, Flush Foot said:

I know there is the Dev_Tracker 'feed' on Discord, but it seems to have fewer instances of Dakota's messages than if you sifted through the never-ending avalanche of 'general' messages. 

agreed, I would appreciate more activity on the forums. Even if it was just a simple post saying "heard" on a popular thread that day. I would even settle for a cold "this is /is not part of the current plan" to at least get an idea of where we are going

1 hour ago, Presto200 said:

I think the KERBs used to be an okay way of showing the bugs they were working on but it would be nice to get more even short dev diary videos just of what they are trying to do to deal with them. Even getting a rundown on what the process is when going through bugs so we could understand why they take so long to release each patch.

I also wanted to come back to this point I made a little bit ago. I think the best example of this would be this video from the KSP YouTube channel. It's a quick 5 min video talking about reentry heating which a lot of the community had questions about, even just the quick look at it and talk from an actual person working on it was great to see at the time. This in my opinion is the perfect amount of communication and is exactly what the community needs. Maybe once a month on a feature or a bug that there has been a lot of questions about.

 

[mc04]

2 hours ago, Presto200 said:

The real problem is that the developers have NDAs when it comes to the future additions to the game, I think this is the main reason we don't get the communication we want. I think that our concern that there is "nothing to report" is more like there's nothing they CAN report. I think intercept games needs to rethink how strict their NDAs are on the developers so that the hype for the game can continue and the trust with us players can build strong again. I speculate  closer to 65-70% of work on the day to day are on future features (colonies/interstellar/resources) since the majority of completely game breaking bugs have been squashed (not to say there aren't any left). Sadly the new things are what they can't release information on even the smallest things because of NDAs. I think the KERBs used to be an okay way of showing the bugs they were working on but it would be nice to get more even short dev diary videos just of what they are trying to do to deal with them. Even getting a rundown on what the process is when going through bugs so we could understand why they take so long to release each patch. Just knowledge of how day to day works around the office would be nice so we dont just think everyone is sitting on their hands. Idk just my thoughts 

P.S. this is very badly typed sorry, just trying to be quick

 

NDAs have nothing to do with official communications. Yes, they are presumably not allowed to randomly share whatever they're working on.  But that doesn't stop a dev from seeking approval to share something, or from people in charge/whoever's running PR from getting WIP material from them to share.

[Presto200]

39 minutes ago, mc04 said:

NDAs have nothing to do with official communications. Yes, they are presumably not allowed to randomly share whatever they're working on.  But that doesn't stop a dev from seeking approval to share something, or from people in charge/whoever's running PR from getting WIP material from them to share.

Youre absolutely right, maybe I put too much emphasis on the NDA but I think my point still stands that it is likely that whatever entity has final say is not wanting/allowing for these things to be shared. 

[Fizzlebop Smith]

Regardless of how strict the NDA is... there is a procedure in place for a CM to request to do an interview. 

Or drop something of worth. 

Even if this is due ONLY to the effectiveness of the NDA, accountability for  lack of communication is still on those responsible for communication.

 

Put Some Polls up --

How happy are you with communication?

It's Great

Meh

None

They left the Building

 

And email this up the chain. Even if no on can agree on what content to add or features to keep... we ALL want something.

Fight for us..

Let us know you are fighting for us to have a voice..

 

Otherwise we will continue to be sad and angry.

I want KSP2 to be the most amazing game on Earth. What Made KSP1 so friggin' beyond amazing is a player with a 100% different approach to me on the game... could agree ot was a superb game.

 

Please fight to make KSP2 the same

[uglyduckling81]

On 3/24/2024 at 6:49 AM, Fizzlebop Smith said:

those that feel KSP2 is already superior.

That’s just a few people gripping to copium. 
No one  really thinks this. 
KSP2 is simply a worse game on every level currently.  There’s no finer points to debate or quibble over. It’s just worse. 
Personally I’d call KSP2 utterly unplayable. It has so many issues that make gameplay unenjoyable. 
im hoping in 2-3 years they will be getting close to a finished product. 

Edited April 3 by uglyduckling81

[The Aziz]

58 minutes ago, uglyduckling81 said:

No one  really thinks this. 

Thank you for thinking for everyone, hope your mind reading capabilities will serve you well

59 minutes ago, uglyduckling81 said:

KSP2 is simply a worse game on every level currently.

Except visuals, level of detail on celestial bodies, science system, tech tree, progression, maneuver system taking burn time into account,  procedural parts, overall part list, slowly but steadily stepping into near future and more extensive resource count than just 3, interface layout, loading times, assembly system, audio, music, ease of approach for new players...

But it has bugs (like if KSP1 didn't have any even to this day) and some performance issues, so it's inferior. Mhm.

¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

[TickleMyMary]

There aren't many aspects of ksp2 that I think it does better than the original imo... It's not even like I can put my finger on it and tell you exactly what it is about the game that makes me not want to play it, there's just nothing about the game that currently makes me want to open it. It feels hollow and devoid of actual fun, maybe I've played ksp1 for far too long but I'm still playing that so I don't know how else to take it. Everything just feels like a simplified version of what we've already got.

 

Visuals - I'd expect it to look better than the original, over 10 year old game... With mods you can get pretty damned close.

LoD on celestial objects - See above point.

Science system - It's terrible. The variety of parts is what made craft unique, tailored specific parts for tailored specific mission proifles you wanted to achieve... What we have currently is watered down button pressing at best and has zero longevity beyond initial missions imo.

Tech tree - What about it? It's a tree you unlock to gain parts and I fail to see what ksp2 does that ksp1 didn't.

Maneuver system - Simply inferior to the original in it's current form, nowhere near as useful.

Procedural parts - A whole host more of them available in ksp1.

Parts List - Equally as underwhelming in stock form as the game made over 10 years previous is.

Resources - Extra resources are great but, again, mods more than bring parity between the two games.

Interface layout - I never had an issue with the ksp1 layout or menu system as a whole, I like whaere they're aiming with ksp2 but it's too inconsistent and hard to read in parts to be considered 'better' imo.

Loading times - Both stock versions of the game load at the same speed for me.

Assembly system - Trying to fix what wasn't broken. It needed an update but, again, what we have now can in no way be considered superior to me.

Audio - Mods bring parity but ksp2 nudges this one.

Music - Nothing will ever beat the ksp theme to me but I give ksp2 the nod for giving us more.

New Players - A vital step to prolonging the life of any franchise... Shame it has come at the cost of enjoyability for a selection of loyal fans of the game.

 

Just my opinion anyway.

[Scarecrow71]

1 minute ago, TickleMyMary said:

Science system - It's terrible. The variety of parts is what made craft unique, tailored specific parts for tailored specific mission proifles you wanted to achieve... What we have currently is watered down button pressing at best and has zero longevity beyond initial missions imo.

We were told they wouldn't dumb it down...and that's exactly what they did.  The community told them that the whole "click this button and get stuff" wasn't doing it and needed to be overhauled, so the organization decided we only needed to click 1 button instead of many.

And I wholly agree that replayability beyond initial missions is lacking.

1 minute ago, TickleMyMary said:

Tech tree - What about it? It's a tree you unlock to gain parts and I fail to see what ksp2 does that ksp1 didn't.

Although it's a mod, I think the community tech tree in KSP1 is far superior to what we have in KSP2.

1 minute ago, TickleMyMary said:

Procedural parts - A whole host more of them available in ksp1.

And yet we still don't have and probably won't get procedural fuel tanks.  Juno has it, so the argument we get that it isn't possible doesn't fly.  (pun not intended, but hot dog is that funny to me!)

1 minute ago, TickleMyMary said:

Resources - Extra resources are great but, again, mods more than bring parity between the two games.

I'll hold comments on resources until after we actually get them in the game.  Which, if I'm not mistaken, isn't probably going to happen until well after colonies (which begs the question as to what exactly colonies are good for beyond being able to launch from somewhere other than the KSC).

1 minute ago, TickleMyMary said:

Interface layout - I never had an issue with the ksp1 layout or menu system as a whole, I like whaere they're aiming with ksp2 but it's too inconsistent and hard to read in parts to be considered 'better' imo.

It took a while, but I am finally getting used to where things are in KSP2.  I don't like it, but I'm getting used to it.  Still wish we could get something that allowed for moving the different pieces around, or recoloring them, or rescaling them.  Oh, how I miss having the altimeter dead center at the top of the screen.

On that note, I really wish they'd bring back being able to recover a vessel without having to bring up the escape menu first.

[Flush Foot]

21 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I really wish they'd bring back being able to recover a vessel without having to bring up the escape menu first

Would certainly make it safer to do so without accidentally reverting your mission instead

[The Aziz]

40 minutes ago, TickleMyMary said:

LoD on celestial objects - See above point.

If you can show me any place in og Kerbol system having better ground resolution - no, I'm not talking about textures, I'm talking about the heightmap res - then I may agree, but I don't think you'll find it, mods or not.

42 minutes ago, TickleMyMary said:

The variety of parts is what made craft unique, tailored specific parts for tailored specific mission proifles you wanted to achieve...

Congrats, you just described KSP2. How's a bunch of tiny boxes that you can squeeze into the smallest cargo bay, better than a bunch of parts that you have to think of where and if to place because they won't just fit anywhere on your basic lander or whatever? Tailored to mission profiles you want to achieve or something?

46 minutes ago, TickleMyMary said:

It's a tree you unlock to gain parts and I fail to see what ksp2 does that ksp1 didn't.

Can't complete the entire tree without leaving Kerbin neighborhood. Encouraging further exploration. And you (mostly) can avoid parts you don't need, with few exceptions.

48 minutes ago, TickleMyMary said:

Simply inferior to the original in it's current form, nowhere near as useful.

I'm not gonna link to my Moho encounter the 30th time.

49 minutes ago, TickleMyMary said:

Procedural parts - A whole host more of them available in ksp1.

Fairings... Engine plates... And...?

51 minutes ago, TickleMyMary said:

Loading times - Both stock versions of the game load at the same speed for me.

Funny how you refer to mods in your entire post but not here. How's your modded instance, hm?

53 minutes ago, TickleMyMary said:

Assembly system - Trying to fix what wasn't broken. It needed an update but, again, what we have now can in no way be considered superior to me.

I enjoy having the option to break my station project into pieces to launch them separately without having to save each segment separately or using ghost subassemblies that can only be attached by root part.

55 minutes ago, TickleMyMary said:

Nothing will ever beat the ksp theme to me

Which you can hear for 30 seconds in main menu and nowhere else.

 

[Fizzlebop Smith]

To continue and suggest that mod content should not be consider when evaluating parity of KSP2 is incredibly harmful to the continuation of this project.

KSP1 embraced the modding community and resulted I  a game that maintained relevance for over a decade as a result.

Mods were incorporated into base game. 

Everyone I have every spoken to that is a die hard KSP1 fan for any length of time uses mods. 

To continue to suggest that the KSP1 mod scene has some how fostered unrealistic expectations in the community is ridiculous. Did they not hire two of those modders to increase KSP2 chance of success?

There is still an all time recommendation rating of less than 60% 

To say a majority of people are pleased with the way this is going is not substantiated by the evidence of that metric. 

Many want to point the the *recent* reviews as some evidence of success.  There has to be a great deal of weight added by  those with no prior KSP experience.

If you consider even a fraction of those positive reviews as those that are "new" to the community.. it suggests even more dissatisfaction among of those cheering & praising PD / KSP  for so long.

 

"Avoiding Parts you Don't really Need"

Corp Speak for 

"Risk soft locking yourself when wanting to try cool stuff if you don't follow the unsterstellar advancement plan"