Take Two Interactive (Rockstar, 2K, Private Division) canceling games, ending projects and laying off 5% of its workforce

[Ker Ball One]

1 minute ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Show me exactly where we were told what is going to happen.  If you can't, then all you are doing is speculating, which then means my statement about us not knowing what is going to happen is true.  You can believe, or speculate, or hope all you want.  You can try to read clues or what-have-you.  The only fact is that we have NOT been told what is going to happen.  Period.  Anything other than that is pure speculation.

You seem to be stuck on repeat.  And stuck waiting at a bus stop for a ride that will never come.

While you are waiting loyally for someone to tell you what will happen... I am saying that it's already happened.  

I'm sorry he left you.  But honey, he ain't coming back.

 

[Scarecrow71]

Just now, Ker Ball One said:

You seem to be stuck on repeat.  And stuck waiting at a bus stop for a ride that will never come.

While you are waiting loyally for someone to tell you what will happen... I am saying that it's already happened.  

I'm sorry he left you.  But honey, he ain't coming back.

 

While the analogy might be valid, we aren't talking about some guy who left us at the altar.  We're talking about a billion dollar company whose product we purchased.

And I'm not stuck at some bus stop waiting for something to happen.  Whatever is going to happen is going to happen, no matter what you or I think.  My point is that we haven't been told anything, so anything you are thinking is pure speculation.  Just because I happen to not buy into it doesn't make my point of view invalid.

[TLTay]

2 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

While the analogy might be valid, we aren't talking about some guy who left us at the altar.  We're talking about a billion dollar company whose product we purchased.

And I'm not stuck at some bus stop waiting for something to happen.  Whatever is going to happen is going to happen, no matter what you or I think.  My point is that we haven't been told anything, so anything you are thinking is pure speculation.  Just because I happen to not buy into it doesn't make my point of view invalid.

I bet there's a small group of fans behind every abandoned EA title just hanging in there waiting patiently and hoping...

[Ker Ball One]

Just now, Scarecrow71 said:

While the analogy might be valid, we aren't talking about some guy who left us at the altar.  We're talking about a billion dollar company whose product we purchased.

And I'm not stuck at some bus stop waiting for something to happen.  Whatever is going to happen is going to happen, no matter what you or I think.  My point is that we haven't been told anything, so anything you are thinking is pure speculation.  Just because I happen to not buy into it doesn't make my point of view invalid.

Oh no sugar, he didn't leave you at the altar.  You were engaged to be married sometime in the next 5 years, maybe.  Your mom and auntie have been telling you he's no good for a long time now.  There was always something fishy about someone with commitment issues talkin about a long-term engagement. 

It's not speculation, it's just common sense and wisdom.  You paid the money.  That got you invested so deeply that you'll never see anything as evidence to the contrary.

Again, take momma's advice.  Don't sit around waiting for him to tell you what is going to happen.  It's already happened.  It's just time to open your eyes and see that it's already been done.  You can't heal and move on until you have reached acceptance of the things that have already happened.

 

*strained analogy requires imagining it being spoken with a southern accent

[Fizzlebop Smith]

I think a semantic argument could be made for both sides.

It is like telling the Atheist they must be a person or faith because you cannot prove the negative.

An argument can absolutely be made for either side.. despite an abundance (or lack) of information simply because corporate entities strive to master noncommittal communications.

Coming right out and saying the Game is canned would be one of the few things they could do to make KSP2 cost them even more..

I am leaning toward an extended limbonperiod while things shake out financially in the gaming sectors. Minimal cost associated with the IP but continue to think about ways to leverage the IP and current sunk costs for future gains.

However.. I will say few things beyond death are certain and nothing is absolute. Just much more likely we won't hear excrements for a couple months & then just a circle speak send off from IG.

 

 

[Ker Ball One]

13 minutes ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

Coming right out and saying the Game is canned

That's the issue.  What is it exactly that people are saying?  Words have different meanings.  Canned, cancelled, supported, bankrupt, abandoned, etc.

For those clinging to hope, they might straw man the claim as "cancelled".  Because that word requires definitive and affirmative acknowledgement from the company, which they can rightly say isn't given.

But really, nobody claims that these single player, offline local games that don't rely on active cloud services, are being "cancelled".  Nobody thinks that they'll pull it from the store or have Steam uninstall the game. 

Now, if they specify that plans for future feature releases are being "cancelled", that's a different claim.  But again, the need for some people to have a definitive statement is unnecessary.  If the game as a whole is abandoned, then that automatically implies that future future updates not already in the release pipeline, are already canceled.

But I agree that it's somewhat of a semantic argument.  I just don't believe in corporate speak like, "not canceled, just indefinitely suspended".

I prefer to use the term "abandoned", because this term is used in software development all the time to show how developers can simply stop work and stop communicating with the community all together. No official statements needed.  The silence is a definitive answer in itself. 

I think it's a fallacy to demand or require an official statement at this point.  Their lack of response tells all. 

 

Edited May 17 by Ker Ball One

[steveman0]

1 hour ago, TLTay said:

Why even come back to it later when you can just, you know... not?

K^2's various posts have touched on this already so this is probably redundant, but it comes down to we're in a high interest rate economy and T2 is burning money very fast right now. They don't have enough cash cows lined up to fuel new development.

The return on investment for KSP2 is longer term. They're better off putting it on hold to slow their cash burn rate until something like GTA6 comes out putting them in a position where they are so flush with cash they'll need to find ways to invest it with a good RoI. At that point, it would make much more sense to invest more heavily in finishing KSP2 in light of what they know now in terms of the scope of remaining work. This is much more sensible financially than to continue racking up debt on it now when the return on investment is further out than originally hoped.

[Fizzlebop Smith]

That's the I'm leaning essentially as well... they have way too much invested combined with potential... to walk away. 

I have had to cut back on some side projects I've been doing but I still have plans to finish the brick oven when interest rates drop a bit or I am more flush... but doesn't look like it will be any time soon unless the economy magically improves where I am located.

Edited May 17 by Fizzlebop Smith

[Ker Ball One]

3 minutes ago, steveman0 said:

K^2's various posts have touched on this already so this is probably redundant, but it comes down to we're in a high interest rate economy and T2 is burning money very fast right now. They don't have enough cash cows lined up to fuel new development.

The return on investment for KSP2 is longer term. They're better off putting it on hold to slow their cash burn rate until something like GTA6 comes out putting them in a position where they are so flush with cash they'll need to find ways to invest it with a good RoI. At that point, it would make much more sense to invest more heavily in finishing KSP2 in light of what they know now in terms of the scope of remaining work. This is much more sensible financially than to continue racking up debt on it now when the return on investment is further out than originally hoped.

That's an interesting point. I'm not sure the accountants at T2 could squeeze any more blood from this stone though.  Even if they come back when they have more money to burn, it's still a bad investment given how sour the community is at this point. 

They would definitely have to ditch early access and produce a completed game before trying to sell it though.  

I think it's just as likely they will sell the IP to someone else.  Because if they tried to develop it themselves, people will remember the name Take Two.

They should sell the rights to Juno: New origins.  They could slap some Kerbals in there and add a little bit of the history and lore.

 

[steveman0]

7 minutes ago, Ker Ball One said:

That's an interesting point. I'm not sure the accountants at T2 could squeeze any more blood from this stone though.  Even if they come back when they have more money to burn, it's still a bad investment given how sour the community is at this point. 

I disagree. I think you put too much weight on how much community sentiment matters. The vast majority of sales will be to people who never step foot in this forum nor the discord. When they have a good product, marketing and word of mouth will overpower any remaining whispers about the rough start and delays.

9 minutes ago, Ker Ball One said:

They would definitely have to ditch early access and produce a completed game before trying to sell it though.  

The bulk of the sales was always likely dependent on this as it wouldn't be ported to console until after it hit 1.0.

[Ker Ball One]

11 minutes ago, steveman0 said:

The vast majority of sales will be to people who never step foot in this forum nor the discord.

But what about the Steam community reviews?  I don't buy a game that has poor reviews.

Even before I found this forum, the Steam reviews of KSP2 turned me off it. That's why I say that they'll need a completed game, because a buggy EA game will just get the same negative reviews and poor ROI.

It'll be the definition of insanity if they simply repeat the same EA mistakes hoping that this time people will just forget and give them money.

[MechBFP]

Just now, Ker Ball One said:

But what about the Steam community reviews?  I don't buy a game that has poor reviews.

Even before I found this forum, the Steam reviews of KSP2 turned me off it. That's why I say that they'll need a completed game, because a buggy EA game will just get the same negative reviews and poor ROI.

It'll be the definition of insanity if they simply repeat the same EA mistakes hoping that this time people will just forget and give them money.

The majority of console customers aren't terminally online and aren't even aware of Steam reviews.

[cocoscacao]

28 minutes ago, Ker Ball One said:

Even if they come back when they have more money to burn, it's still a bad investment given how sour the community is at this point. 

2 minutes ago, Ker Ball One said:

But what about the Steam community reviews?  I don't buy a game that has poor reviews.

Steam community = community here

?

[Bej Kerman]

10 minutes ago, cocoscacao said:

Steam community = community here

?

Yeah, well I doubt a wider pool of buyers is gonna be aware of a relatively niche forum. This forum is not nearly as important as it's made out to be.

[Ker Ball One]

12 minutes ago, cocoscacao said:

Steam community = community here

?

I would say the steam community is even more sour on KSP2 than here.  Reviews there are very negative.

 

13 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

The majority of console customers aren't terminally online and aren't even aware of Steam reviews.

Game pass reviews, whatever.

Is KSP2 even on console? 

It really depends on the asking price.  KSP 2, being $60, people are definitely looking at reviews before they purchase.  If this game were properly priced at below $20 for early access, then many people could just skip the reviews.

 

But that's my point, that there is no way to have their cake and eat it too. They can't make profit with a full priced game that is in early access.  There ROI is not going to be worth it because they literally have to develop the entire game to completion, with a really compelling game, in order to charge full price.  Or else they risk repeating the exact same thing that happened here.

Marketing hype helped, but could not save them.  They actually have to produce a real game that is good enough to justify the price.

 

Edited May 17 by Ker Ball One

[cocoscacao]

2 minutes ago, Ker Ball One said:

I would say the steam community is even more sour on KSP2 than here.  Reviews there are very negative.

I'm pretty sure everyone here would be happy if game development is continued. If future updates fixed current mess, reviews would go up. As @Bej Kerman noted, I believe majority of reviews are from the people who played KSP 1. But even if this game gets good reviews, it doesn't guarantee it will sell outside of established player-base. Investing further would be a risk. I don't know if their hopes were to expand it.

[TLTay]

1 hour ago, steveman0 said:

K^2's various posts have touched on this already so this is probably redundant, but it comes down to we're in a high interest rate economy and T2 is burning money very fast right now. They don't have enough cash cows lined up to fuel new development.

The return on investment for KSP2 is longer term. They're better off putting it on hold to slow their cash burn rate until something like GTA6 comes out putting them in a position where they are so flush with cash they'll need to find ways to invest it with a good RoI. At that point, it would make much more sense to invest more heavily in finishing KSP2 in light of what they know now in terms of the scope of remaining work. This is much more sensible financially than to continue racking up debt on it now when the return on investment is further out than originally hoped.

Nah.

They've got 2 years worth of development left to do on this. They can scrape something off the bottom of someone's shoe that will reap more sales than this dumpster fire would after its ratings drop to 25% after 2 years in hibernation.

You just reeeeaaallly want it not to be over, but it's pretty obvious it's over. And no, they're not going to say as much because they want a "future release" on their books due to the GTA delays.

[Scarecrow71]

2 hours ago, Ker Ball One said:

Don't sit around waiting for him to tell you what is going to happen.  It's already happened.

Prove it.  Prove that it's already happened.  Show me where it has been stated the game is cancelled, or dead, or abandoned.  You do that and I'll join your side.  Until then, I'm of the mind that it's all speculation.

[Fizzlebop Smith]

 

 

13 minutes ago, TLTay said:

Wait.. what? Someone is on repeat?

Edited May 17 by Fizzlebop Smith

[TLTay]

9 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Prove it.  Prove that it's already happened.  Show me where it has been stated the game is cancelled, or dead, or abandoned.  You do that and I'll join your side.  Until then, I'm of the mind that it's all speculation.

If it's not any of those things, they would have had Nate come out RIGHT AWAY and spell out in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that it wasn't over, development is continuing, here's our plan, etc.

Instead, they're being "cute" about it and dodging direct questions with legally precise language that doesn't inform one to the future of this product.

You want closure, but closure has legal and financial implications that management evidently is unwilling to accept.

I can't think of a game that was released to early access just to be shelved for a year or two and then was resumed later, can you? Sounds like wishful fantasy.

Edited May 17 by TLTay

[Ker Ball One]

You want divorce papers, signed by a notary.  You want a clear statement on company letterhead.

But you were never married.  Early Access players don't get any guarantees or apologies.  They get GHOSTED.  Players, unfortunately, don't rate high enough to warrant a response.  They don't owe you an explanation or even an acknowledgement.  You paid them money, and they gave you what?  Their word?

And yet. You remain patiently devoted to the last thing they said before they skipped town.

Honey, he went out for milk and cigarettes 2 weeks ago.  He's not coming back.  Don't expect a postcard as "proof" that he's gone run off.

Edited May 17 by Ker Ball One

[herbal space program]

4 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

AFTER ALL OF THAT, the game only got 1% the sales of the original, and a dubious rating, which is now even lower.

That statement is demonstrably untrue: https://steamdb.info/app/954850/charts/.  Estimated KSP2 sales were about 10% of the similar estimates for KSP1, not 1%. Still nothing to crow about, but I have to ask myself, why the tenfold exaggeration on your part?

Edited May 17 by herbal space program

[Lisias]

47 minutes ago, herbal space program said:

That statement is demonstrably untrue: https://steamdb.info/app/954850/charts/.  Estimated KSP2 sales were about 10% of the similar estimates for KSP1, not 1%. Still nothing to crow about, but I have to ask myself, why the tenfold exaggeration on your part?

Fact check. Let's munch the numbers so everybody can see by themself:

https://steamdb.info/app/220200/charts/ vs https://steamdb.info/app/954850/charts/

• Steam Spy
  • KSP¹ : 3.58M
  • KSP2 : 590K
  • Ratio: 0.164804469273743 , or ~16.48%
• Play Tracker
  • KSP¹ : 6.24M
  • KSP2 : 240.7K
  • Ratio: 0.03857371794871795 , or ~3.85%

You see, given this margin for errors, 1% is not that off.

Mainly because we don't know how these trackers handle refunds. Users that got a refund are removed from the tracking? Because, if not, the numbers for KSP2 are highly inflated.

Edited May 17 by Lisias
Tyops are cosnpiring agaisnt me!!!

[Scarecrow71]

1 hour ago, TLTay said:

If it's not any of those things, they would have had Nate come out RIGHT AWAY and spell out in NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that it wasn't over, development is continuing, here's our plan, etc.

Instead, they're being "cute" about it and dodging direct questions with legally precise language that doesn't inform one to the future of this product.

You want closure, but closure has legal and financial implications that management evidently is unwilling to accept.

I can't think of a game that was released to early access just to be shelved for a year or two and then was resumed later, can you? Sounds like wishful fantasy.

You must have me confused with someone who believes the best is yet to come.  I don't.  I don't for one minute believe anything else is happening with this game.

However, that doesn't mean we've been told anything.  That is just a simple fact.  Has nothing to do with what will happen.  It is just a fact.

Now, unless you can actually prove that the game is dead, any thing you say is speculation.  Again, that is just fact.  It isn't hope, or belief, or anything like that.  It is just facts.

And @Ker Ball One, that applies to everything you said.  You both have this belief that I am not giving up hope here.  All I'm stating is the facts..  whether you choose to accept that or not is your choice.

[Ker Ball One]

You still sound hopeful beneath the agnostic exterior.

What do mean by "dead"?  That's not the same as "abandoned", which is what I'm saying already has all the proof you need to conclusively say it's abandoned. 

It's like you want proof that something is black, so I go, "the lack of color, duh". 

An Abandonment is easy to prove by the absence of communication and stewardship.  That's already proven for the last two weeks.  Combine that with the facts about the lay offs from the WARN order... And that's so much proof of abandonment, that it just looks like delusional hope when you deny that there is no evidence and that we have no clues.

You've painted yourself into a corner, by waiting for an official statement that will never come.  You will never get the evidence you demand, because it isn't coming.  Nor is needed.

Edited May 17 by Ker Ball One