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Allow us to have at least some action groups for every level of the VAB/SPH


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While I love the new progression with the upgradeable buildings, I was not thrilled to learn that action groups are also gated in this same progression. I decided to keep an open mind, however, but after doing a full playthrough (and three partials), I have to say I did not enjoy that aspect one little bit.

Action groups are just UI shortcuts - they really shouldn't be a gameplay item at all. It would be like buying an in-game camera to be able to do F1-style screenshots or to F2 the HUD away.

So my proposal can take either one of two forms:

Plan A

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Remove action groups from progression, restore classic action groups entirely.

Plan B

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Keep the progression, but ensure that even the first VAB/SPH can have at least a couple of user-defined action groups (at least groups 1-3 for the starter models, unlocking more groups as progression happens).

I'd strongly recommend Plan A, as anything else sort of smacks of having to pay to unlock the use of the mouse or something, but at least with Plan B, we can always have a handful available to us so we don't have to put 'extend ladder' on abort~

(New feature for KSP 0.27/0.91: Mousewheel! Only 5.25 million space bucks!)

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Add to that tracking options. Nothing worse than trying to play without action groups and zero tracking options. Is there not a way to better implement transitional ability than "we are taking away ALL your toys" option which the current building upgrade route gives? :(

(Just found out no tracking on career at start, so really really confused in playing right now, spoilt career IMO :( ).

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I aint gonna lie action groups are shortcuts in most cases. But in a decidable few situations they are NEEDED. Take for instance the handling of an SSTO, you want to turn off both engines/rockets at the same time otherwise you may meet a flat spin or something nasty.

So not having action groups DOES keep you from performing some tasks that can only be done efficiently with action groups. So it does hinder you as does much of the other functions that are locked early. Yes it is an issue for those who are just to lazy to click around. But they do hold purpose for more advanced designs (SSTOs are the prime example) that really need action groups to function on larger scales (single engine designs obviously need just a right click)

There always is the abort button function, which basically allows 1 action group.

Even throwing in 3 action groups is enough for me most of the time. Only in the most convoluted designs have i ever went over 3 or 4. In both cases the ships part number is more of a limiting factor than the lack of action groups.

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I like it the way it is.

The challenge is great.

Most early rockets are simple enough.

I can see aspects of aircraft being very challenging.

I have had to learn to place items like aerials and solar pannels in places easy to find to allow clicking them manually.

It makes me negotiate my designs and jump rope ...

Maybe I'm a lonely opinion.

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I agree that limiting action group availability is contrived. There should be no limit to the number of groups or availability to them regardless of progression level. The part count and mass limitations could be easily balanced more effectively to change difficulty in a more sensible manner. Limiting access to action groups is like arbitrarily locking out the W key at the start of the game. Senseless. I think it was the Devs taking a lazy shortcut without properly thinking it through. Easily fixed I suppose.

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I think it's perfectly justified. Action groups are player convenience functions. The same as SAS options, or orbit tracking. People are used to having them, but they aren't necessary at all. The rockets you start with in career mode are supposed to be simple. You have a limit of what, 30 parts in the first level of VAB? And 20 tons on the launchpad? There's no way you need action groups for craft that small. If you need to build bigger and more complex things, then upgrade your facilities.

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Supported.

I like most of the new limitations; SAS-less Stayputniks and launchpad weight limits and such are fun. But the action group thing is nothing but irritating; all it causes is a frantic mid-flight battle with finicky right click menus. It isn't fun, it isn't interesting, and it isn't realistic. Ditch it.

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Regarding some of the points brought up here:

- Being necessary or not being necessary isn't a reason to progression lock something (for example, your display for the former, or your mouse during flight for the latter). What's next, saves being unlocked by second tier admin building? I'd like to re-iterate tntristan12's excellent point that the existing progression already limits action groups.

- Right clicking isn't challenge, it's tedium.

- Cpt Kipard addressed the 'engineering' issue for manned, but for unmanned, it isn't all that much engineering at all, considering the Commutron 16 is already unlimited range and FTL to boot.

- I'm not opposed to the other progression things. (Although I do think they need to insert an extra tier between the starting tier and the first upgrade tier)

Don't give them any ideas! :D

Uhoh, don't let them see above then ;)

I think a progression like:

  1. 1
  2. 2
  3. 4
  4. 6
  5. 10

would be fine, or 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 10 if there are 6 levels in the end.

I'd be fine with that too. I'm not wedded to the progression I outlined in 'Plan B'. It's just a placeholder. (And unlike Squad, getting me to address a placeholder isn't like pulling teeth)

...an object millions of miles away.

Are you sure you're a Canadian vending machine? :P

I like most of the new limitations; SAS-less Stayputniks and launchpad weight limits and such are fun. But the action group thing is nothing but irritating; all it causes is a frantic mid-flight battle with finicky right click menus. It isn't fun, it isn't interesting, and it isn't realistic. Ditch it.

Key point here in this excellent summary highlighted.

The other limits bring fun and interesting to the table, the action group thing brings irritation only.

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I don't suppose it'll matter if I point out that there were no action groups in this game until a certain point? Just like there was no map, no EVA, etc. And the game was still fun back then. What this limitation does is make you experience the same thing early KSP players had, with the difference that here you can just play on and unlock the more fun possibilities, rather than have to wait for them.

edit: You know, one thing I would agree with is that tying action groups to VAB/SPH upgrades is silly. For one, having action groups in one should allow having action groups in the other.

Therefore, counter-proposal: instead of tying action groups to VAB/SPH level, have them gradually unlocked by science! At some later point that can even be used to upgrade internal views to RPM-style glass cockpits, just pushing the "pilot interface" research branch further.

Edited by Sean Mirrsen
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I don't suppose it'll matter if I point out that there were no action groups in this game until a certain point? Just like there was no map, no EVA, etc. And the game was still fun back then. What this limitation does is make you experience the same thing early KSP players had, with the difference that here you can just play on and unlock the more fun possibilities, rather than have to wait for them.

Eeeh.. we already do that with maneuver nodes and patched conics :/

One thing I'd like to add is that even in all-up stock play, I generally don't need the final tier VAB anyhow (I can usually get 'er done in 255 parts or less, in fact, that's a design goal for me), so I'm basically paying millions of space bucks for numbered action groups after the game is practically over.

You know, one thing I would agree with is that tying action groups to VAB/SPH upgrades is silly. For one, having action groups in one should allow having action groups in the other.

Yes, that is unequivocally silly. You can build a spaceplane in the VAB and roll it down the ramp and taxi to the runway (or take off from any flat area) to bypass SPH limitations, or just plain well launch rockets from the runway to bypass VAB limitations.. having them as separate upgrades is silly overall (and not just in terms of action groups).

Therefore, counter-proposal: instead of tying action groups to VAB/SPH level, have them gradually unlocked by science! At some later point that can even be used to upgrade internal views to RPM-style glass cockpits, just pushing the "pilot interface" research branch further.

I could go for that under "Plan B", but I insist that there's at least one numbered action group available from early on... As in, somewhere in the first, second, or third tier..

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I don't suppose it'll matter if I point out that there were no action groups in this game until a certain point?

No, it doesn't matter. You could also argue based on that, that you should have to buy upgrades for Mun, Minmus, and other planets to appear. And biomes. Heck, you could require an upgrade to a building that unlocked the ability to buy upgrades!

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No, it doesn't matter. You could also argue based on that, that you should have to buy upgrades for Mun, Minmus, and other planets to appear. And biomes. Heck, you could require an upgrade to a building that unlocked the ability to buy upgrades!

I would definitely make you unlock the ability to do most things. You could be required to build an SPH and a runway before you can use them, not to mention the tracking station if it weren't the only way to resume flights in progress right now. Having to discover other planets and moons besides those readily visible with the naked eye has long been a proposed thing. You wouldn't be prevented from going there, but you wouldn't have them or their orbits on the map. Biomes are fiddlier, but having to scan the surface from above to distinguish one biome from another prior to sample collecting sounds reasonable. And no to the last one, heh, I'm not quite that evil. Besides, upgrading buildings is not a function of the space center, you have subcontractors for that. :P

Yes, you are lonely opinion, Mars Mullo. For me even that 10 is even far less than needed for an interplanetary mission...
Do you regularly do interplanetary missions in less than 30 parts? If not, then you don't need action groups in the first tier of the VAB.

And for reference, we got patched conics and Minmus (and the SPH) in .15, and the large rocket parts in .16. We got most of the rest of the Kerbol system in .17. We only got the user-defined action groups in .18, months later, together with docking and the last two planets. Somehow people have been coping. ;)

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  • 1 year later...

I agree with @Renegrade, @tntristan12, @Technical Ben, @CaptainKipard, @5thHorseman, @NWM, @MKI, @Wallygator, and @Wanderfound.

I support Rengrade's Plan A: Remove action groups from progression, restore classic action groups entirely.  Ie. Stock & Custom Actions Groups should be completely available from the start of career games without any facility upgrades or other progression.

Limiting Custom Actions groups early in career games is an unnecessary and petty limitation, especially considering many actions have to be taken at short notice or together, even on smaller rockets.  And even with a few parts, it's easy to have parts buried and their right-click menus inaccessible.

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I played the game for a long, long, embarrassingly long time before I even realized action groups existed.

I made a lot of complicated crafts like VTOL's and controlled them without realizing such shortcuts were available. (Switching from horizontal to vertical flight takes some quick fingers! Lol.)

Plus, the VAB is like one of the first things you are going to upgrade and it's not terribly expensive. If you are building something that needs all these custom action groups but still using the level 1 VAB...I'm not sure what's going on?

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7 minutes ago, Rocket In My Pocket said:

I played the game for a long, long, embarrassingly long time before I even realized action groups existed.

I made a lot of complicated crafts like VTOL's and controlled them without realizing such shortcuts were available. (Switching from horizontal to vertical flight takes some quick fingers! Lol.)

Plus, the VAB is like one of the first things you are going to upgrade and it's not terribly expensive. If you are building something that needs all these custom action groups but still using the level 1 VAB...I'm not sure what's going on?

There's plenty of examples given above why Custom Action Groups are wanted and wanted early in a career game, even for the rockets built with a level 1 VAB, as well as why restricting them does little but frustrate players who understand and want them.  Doesn't matter that you or anyone else can get by without Custom Action Groups.  You can get by without many features in the game.  Does it make sense to do so with Custom Action Groups?  No it doesn't.

And to get Custom Action Groups in a career game, you need to raise the VAB from level 1 to level 3.  That's 225,000$ plus 845,000$, for a total of 1,070,000$.  That is terribly expensive, especially if you're playing a Hard career game for a challenge in gathering Science and Funds.  Not a challenge fighting a petty control restriction.

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2 minutes ago, Jacke said:

There's plenty of examples given above why Custom Action Groups are wanted and wanted early in a career game, even for the rockets built with a level 1 VAB, as well as why restricting them does little but frustrate players who understand and want them.  Doesn't matter that you or anyone else can get by without Custom Action Groups.  You can get by without many features in the game.  Does it make sense to do so with Custom Action Groups?  No it doesn't.

And to get Custom Action Groups in a career game, you need to raise the VAB from level 1 to level 3.  That's 225,000$ plus 845,000$, for a total of 1,070,000$.  That is terribly expensive, especially if you're playing a Hard career game for a challenge in gathering Science and Funds.  Not a challenge fighting a petty control restriction.

It may also be a classic case of Squad not wanting to "overwhelm" new players with too many systems at once. Slowly introducing the idea of action groups to a newer player does have merit.

Seems like the only people who want custom action groups from the start are the players who are more experienced, I say make it an option when you start your career game.

We already have loads of options to tweak it to our liking, I can't see the harm in a few more.

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