Air Superiority Fighter Competition

[Piatzin]

3 minutes ago, exbyde said:

@Earthlinger i keep seeing people advertise "better radar", what do you mean by that? Also all Aim-120s is a bold move

Idk. But I forgot to actually put any radar on the last plane with missiles, so any radar is an improvement than no radar

As for the missiles, they can be mixed around to add variety. Six AMRAAM's is just the default armament.

[exbyde]

@Earthlinger oh, LMAO.  Just was wondering, ive noticed the AIM-120s are fairly easy to counteract at a distance, aim-9s are something not everyone is prepared for. I ran a few tests on an earlier vulcan-only mod of the Berkut against bryntrolls and noticed the berkuts could jink 120s without fail, but would usually get shredded by aim-9s before the bryntrolls could get guns on, so i upgraded to flares.

Edited December 2, 2017 by exbyde

[drtricky]

6 hours ago, [INDO]dimas_1502 said:

*snip*

Even though I haven't tested your fighter, having only AIM-9's will place it at a tactical disadvantage if the enemy has radar-based missiles like the AIM-120, or rarely the PAC-8 (normally not used to hit fighters due to poor accuracy). If your fighter doesn't have any radar-based missiles, I'd highly recommend adding them.

15 hours ago, exbyde said:

*Snippity snip snip*

Did the GAU-8 have accuracy problems? In my tests it did.

Edited December 2, 2017 by drtricky

[exbyde]

16 minutes ago, drtricky said:

Even though I haven't tested your fighter, having only AIM-9's will place it at a tactical disadvantage if the enemy has radar-based missiles like the AIM-120, or rarely the PAC-8 (normally not used to hit fighters due to poor accuracy). If your fighter doesn't have any radar-based missiles, I'd highly recommend adding them.

Did the GAU-8 have accuracy problems? In my tests it did.

In my testing the Avenger had a smaller spread than the pair of vulcans. I think that pinpoint accuracy is a weakness, you need a CEP to hit a maneuvering aircraft, or else you are accurately shooting where the aircraft was and not where it was and is. Something to consider, the vulcan had a bead on thr avenger 1/8 of a second early on turning head-to-head passes, so the 600kg weight does make a difference even on already heavy aircraft.

Edited December 2, 2017 by exbyde

[exbyde]

@HeroBrian_333 what woud the procedure be if i wanted to run battles to help speed things up?

[NotAnAimbot]

1 hour ago, drtricky said:

rarely the PAC-8 (normally not used to hit fighters due to poor accuracy)

It's for another reason tho. PAC-3s are about as precise as AIM-120s, but require a constant radar lock. Planes usually turn after launching missiles unlike in 1.3.0 where they kept tracking the target, so it leads to the PAC always losing lock.

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, exbyde said:

@HeroBrian_333 what woud the procedure be if i wanted to run battles to help speed things up?

PM him first.

[exbyde]

1 hour ago, NotAnAimbot said:

It's for another reason tho. PAC-3s are about as precise as AIM-120s, but require a constant radar lock. Planes usually turn after launching missiles unlike in 1.3.0 where they kept tracking the target, so it leads to the PAC always losing lock.

Would putting radar receivers on the aircraft (especially in 3v3 and beyond) aid this in any way?

[NotAnAimbot]

1 hour ago, exbyde said:

Would putting radar receivers on the aircraft (especially in 3v3 and beyond) aid this in any way?

It wouldn't, as a radar receiver has to be manually set up and usually all planes turn away.

[exbyde]

So, for my reference, i am going to be making a list of currently submitted fighters, in order of their submission. If i miss you, let me know.

Bryntröll - @Thor Wotansen

Fighter 2 - @53miner53

Monstron (SUPER)- @Eidahlil

Be Gentle - @FleshJeb

Fighter 3 - @53miner53

Sanngrior - @Thor Wotansen

Berzerker Drones - @Earthlinger

Fighter 2 MKII - @53miner53

Kryfoon - @AeroGav

F-38 Super Bullet - @dundun93

AB-17 Moses (SUPER) - @drtricky

X-02 Taisch - @SuicidalInsanity

Dr. Dorito's The Cool Ranch Dorito - @drtricky

Thwop-Thwop (helicopter) - @FleshJeb

T-50s Ronser (MOD) - @Mukita12

IAIO Qaher f-313 - @[INDO]dimas_1502

Ordinance Drone - @Earthlinger

Berkut 1AT - @exbyde

If i missed anyone, let me know. This list is intended as a general reference.

[HeroBrian_333]

Thank you @exbyde!

[drtricky]

11 minutes ago, exbyde said:

If i missed anyone, let me know. This list is intended as a general reference.

Who's this Dr. Dorito? They sound like quite an accredited medical professional!

[Joseph Kerman]

Here is my entry: the F-44 Swing Wing fighter. Use IR to toggle the two modes.

https://kerbalx.com/The_Kerbal_Way/F-44

 

[loki130]

Alright, I'll throw my pachy in here. It requires just BDA and Airplanes Plus.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8jzccbfufenrwwh/F-9C Pachycephalosaurus.craft?dl=0

[exbyde]

@53miner53 I am conducting a flight test on Fighter 3. I will be using a rank system, so all fighters will go up the current rankings list. As such, you will be going up against @FleshJeb's "Be Gentle". All fights are conducted at 15k intercept ranges.

1v1- Be Gentle, 2-1

Be Gentle- Fired first shot at 7k, seems to have radar issues. Got in close and used guns at under 1k.
Fighter 3- After initial missile volleys, Fighter 3 showed off its impressive maneuverability, sticking to be gentle's tail for a good 20 seconds before getting the kill with guns
Be Gentle- Both aircraft fired missiles at 7k, Fighter 3 went on the defensive, Be Gentle got a gun kill at 1.6k

3v3- Be Gentle, 3-0
Be Gentle- 3-0- Be Gentle was anything but. Fighter 3 formation started going after and launching missiles at enemy missiles. All 3 aircraft were wiped out by second missile volley.
Be Gentle- 3-1- Again, formation went after missiles. One fighter got a missile kill, all 3 fighter 3s taken down by gunfire. Battle lasted roughly 5 minutes, final fighter 3 endured having one wingtip clipped, then the other, while still posing a threat with AIM-120s and vulcan. Have video, will post later
Be Gentle-3-1- First kill was pyrrhic, an F3 got a kill with a combined missile/vulcan run, while a second Be Gentle got behind the F3, knocking out an engine and wing. Final kill was a 1.5km Vulcan

5v5- Be Gentle, 3-0
Be Gentle- 5-3- Noticed a trend of the F3s liking to use missiles more than guns, despite supermaneuverability, and Be Gentles LOVE guns, firing at absurd ranges (as far as 2km). Final f3 got a kill with only cockpit section and vulcan.
Be Gentle-5-2- F3 AI's need a bowl of wheaties. Saw 4 AIM-120s being shot at an opposing AIM-120, getting a successful interception, but horrendously wasteful. F3s got an initial gun kill, but Be Gentles murdered all. Final F3 ran itself into the ground.
Be Gentle-5-3-Go F3's, show that unlocked AIM-120 who's boss with vulcan fire and more AIM-120s (facepalm). Again, F3s got an initial gun kill, but the Be Gentles seem to be the samurai of the fighter world, using their guns almost to a fault.

Winner was the Be Gentle, so the Fighter 3 gets #4 placement if @HeroBrian_333 endorses it, and also the "my pilot needs a second helmet" award for borderline moronic flying. While the F3 clearly has better handling at times, something is off with the AI.

 

Edited December 3, 2017 by exbyde

[exbyde]

@Thor WotansenI am conducting flight tests on your Sanngrigor drone. You will be fighting with the current #4, @53miner53Fighter 3. 

1v1-Sanngrigor, 3-0

Sanngrigor- Jinked an AIM-120, streaked into gun range and shot to kill. Extremely maneuverable.
Sanngrigor- Perhaps this aircraft is too fast? Streaks in at ~400m/s, proceeds to go way too fast to keep guns on target for more than half a second. F3 got a shot off that knocked out one of the Sanngrigor's AIM-9s, after a 5 minute duel Sanngrigor shot down F3.
Sanngrigor- After an initial head-to-head pass, Sanngrigor showed off its superior maneuverability and shot down the opposing f3 after 2 long bursts.

3v3-Sanngrigor, 3-0

Sanngrigor- 3-1 - Fights are drawn out due to the Sanngrigor's extreme speed. Sanngrigors eventually gunned down their opponents.
Sanngrigor- 3-0- Securing their "my pilot needs a second helmet" award, a pair of F3's flew into the VAB and an adjacent building, destroying them and any chance of their victory. I wish i had this on video.

@53miner53 what the hell are you feeding your pilots???
DQ ROUND- An F3 flew into another F3's wing on the turnout from formation, destroying an aircraft. First time i have seen this happen. Round was disqualified.
Sanngrigor- 3-1. The Sanngrigors continued their reign of high speed and maneuverability, killing all 3 f3s with guns to a single loss of their own. Video will be up soon of this round

I really don't think a 5v5 round is required at this time, due to the F3's self-destructive tendancies. If @HeroBrian_333 endorses it, F3 falls to the #5 slot on the list and Sanngrigor gets the #4 slot. The Sanngrigor could use some more batteries or a solar panel, however, to prevent uncommanded shutdowns while preparing matches

 

Edited December 3, 2017 by exbyde

[exbyde]

1 hour ago, Joseph Kerman said:

Here is my entry: the F-44 Swing Wing fighter. Use IR to toggle the two modes.

https://kerbalx.com/The_Kerbal_Way/F-44

 

Just so you are aware, all dogfights are completed automatically by BDA's AI Pilot. I'm not sure if they will be able to toggle, and we will not test both modes for varying performance.

[drtricky]

@exbyde It's great you're running some of the rounds! I just wanted to suggest BDA camera tools for good camera angles. 

This video is a bit old, but is a demonstration of what it looks like.

Edited December 3, 2017 by drtricky

[Joseph Kerman]

7 hours ago, exbyde said:

Just so you are aware, all dogfights are completed automatically by BDA's AI Pilot. I'm not sure if they will be able to toggle, and we will not test both modes for varying performance.

Well, here's what I'd like to do:

Get two of the craft, set one on stability, the other on maneuverability. That way, I'd be able to see both in action.

[exbyde]

1 hour ago, Joseph Kerman said:

Well, here's what I'd like to do:

Get two of the craft, set one on stability, the other on maneuverability. That way, I'd be able to see both in action.

Here's the issue: These dogfights take about an hour to conduct a full range of testing, i do a minimum of six flights if it is exceedingly obvious of the result, though nine are what the ver batim rules say, and that is per aircraft. The way I do things, it could be five hours if you have a worldbeater that needs to get to the top of the list. Since this change doesn't affect any aspect of the flight envelope other than cg, i will suggest running wings forward on all testing, and once we conclude that testing, have a flight with wings swept back. If there is a significant performance change, we can evaluate, and get you a result on both aircraft, but i don't think the addition of a swing wing is enough to test the aircraft twice.

@Earthlinger the links to your aircraft seem to not be working for me, i'd like to test fly your drones.

[HeroBrian_333]

@exbyde great job! You managed to get two battles done, and have the patience to set them up! Thank you for being such a big help. All results will be endorsed. Also, anyone feel free to nominate a plane for honorable mention.

[exbyde]

1 minute ago, HeroBrian_333 said:

@exbyde great job! You managed to get two battles done, and have the patience to set them up! Thank you for being such a big help. All results will be endorsed. Also, anyone feel free to nominate a plane for honorable mention.

Actually will have a third within 30min, Sanngrior vs Be Gentle. and thanks!

[Piatzin]

1 hour ago, exbyde said:

@Earthlinger the links to your aircraft seem to not be working for me, i'd like to test fly your drones.

Berzerkers: https://www.dropbox.com/home?preview=Berzerker+Drone.craft

Ordnance Drones: https://www.dropbox.com/home?preview=Ordnance+Drone+-+Fighter.craft

Better?

[NotAnAimbot]

12 hours ago, exbyde said:

So, for my reference, i am going to be making a list of currently submitted fighters, in order of their submission. If i miss you, let me know.

 

If i missed anyone, let me know. This list is intended as a general reference.

Yep, add me with the F-25BK

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fen1hff367oyd1b/MDL_F-25BK_Fencer.craft?dl=0

1 hour ago, exbyde said:

These dogfights take about an hour to conduct a full range of testing,

Timewarp works very well with BDAI, so you can timewarp till just before the turning point to save lots of time.

[exbyde]

@Thor Wotansen I am testing your Sanngrior drone against @FleshJeb's Be Gentle for the #3 spot on the boards. All dogfights are conducted at 15k intercept. This battle is sponsored by BattMann, who forgot to put batteries on the Sanngrior.

1v1-

Be Gentle - hit with a heat seeking missile during initial pass
Be Gentle - Got the first shot off, Sanngrior moved to evade, be Gentle put guns on and killed.
Sanngrior- It seems as though if the Sanngrior survives the initial pass, it will win. It is clearly more agile than the Be Gentle due to its low weight and high, thrust-vectored t/w ratio. Be gentle missed with a missile shot, and dueled with guns for a good minute or so. The Sanngrior had sights on the Be Gentle a full second before the Be Gentle had Sanngrior due to maneuverability.
 

3v3- Sanngrior, 2-1
I quickly found that the Sanngrior, being both too light for a pilot or batteries, lasts about 2 minutes without the engines on, which is mildly problematic.

Sanngrior- 3-0 - Both aircraft closed the 15k gap quickly. First Be Gentle was shot down by a missile, the second two hit by guns
Sanngrior- 3-0 - One Be Gentle was disqualified after losing a wing to guns and flying in a straight line 30km away at full burners. The other two got into a long gunfight with the three sangrigors and were put out of their misery soon after.
DQ- The Sanngrior seems to be unable to cope with time warp, two aircraft lost to water collisions. 
Be Gentle- 3-1- Of course this is the fight i recorded. In a surprise move, the Be Gentle won one of the dogfights. All kills appear to be guns, with a single Sanngrior being DQed for running away. ( @drtricky i did download the camera angles mod, cant figure out how to use it.)

5v5- Sanngrior - 2-1

Be Gentle - 5-0 - Well...The first Sanngrior splashed down attempting to evade a missile, and the other four were quickly shot down by missiles and guns. This was very brief, unlike other encounters i'd seen between these aircraft. 
Sanngrior- 5-1 - There was another low-level encounter but no crashes when trying to evade the first wave of Be Gentle's missiles. The ensuing dogfight was won primarily with guns, though a single AIM-9 kill was noted.
Sanngrior- 5-2 - This was a drawn-out brawl. While the Be Gentles took the lead at first, the Sanngriors eventually clawed out a victory.

Conclusions: The Sanngrior and Be Gentle are pretty closely matched, a slim 5-4 match just barely going in the Sanngrior's favor.. The Be Gentle's superior weapons loadout immediately puts the Sanngrior on the defensive, but the Sanngrior's maneuverability wins the day, so long as it can survive long enough to shake the Be Gentle. With the results of this fight, the Sanngrior should rise to the #3 spot, while the Be Gentle retains a respectable #4 @HeroBrian_333

32 minutes ago, Earthlinger said:

Berzerkers: https://www.dropbox.com/home?preview=Berzerker+Drone.craft

Ordnance Drones: https://www.dropbox.com/home?preview=Ordnance+Drone+-+Fighter.craft

Better?

Much, thank you!

 

16 minutes ago, NotAnAimbot said:

Yep, add me with the F-25BK

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fen1hff367oyd1b/MDL_F-25BK_Fencer.craft?dl=0

Timewarp works very well with BDAI, so you can timewarp till just before the turning point to save lots of time.

Can do, did you already submit this before, or are you just adding now?
Also, i do use timewarp, it does on occasion affect aircraft. If i run timewarp on the Sanngrior, it runs into the water 100% of the time before combat. Even when i can, battles take a few minutes, followed by recording results and uploading a youtube video.

Edited December 3, 2017 by exbyde