ZootinZack

Is MechJeb hate still a thing?

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6 hours ago, The Dunatian said:

Who needs mechjeb? I don't wish to sound boastful, but truthfully I am a better pilot than mechjeb. Flying manual is more challenging and more fun.


Oh, here we go again.  You may be a better pilot than Mechjeb - but not everyone is.  You may find flying manually more challenging and fun - but not everyone does.

For better or worse, I'm over on the left hand side of the bell curve when it comes to eye-hand and twitch reflexes, Mechjeb is a much better pilot than I.  (And don't pull that "all you need is practice" nonsense.  Practice can no more correct my slow reflexes and poor eye hand coordination than it can cure my nearsightedness.)  Without MechJeb, I literally could not play KSP.

In the same vein, I don't find flying much fun at all.  I get my fun planning and designing the missions (I'm about sixteen hours into planning and testing detailed mission architecture for a Dres expedition.  I figure I'm about one third to half done.)  The only reason I fly at all is to prove that my planning and designing produced the desired results.

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My only "hate" is when people list mechjeb as a "must have", and tell new/prospective players to get it.

If you use it, that's fine... but don't go around telling other people (especially new players) that its a needed feature. Such a statement risk cheating new players out of a learning experience and a sense of accomplishment. They can always decide on their own if they need it, but let them try without it first... most will succeed.

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Personally, I’ve never used it. I prefer flying manually.

However, I can see why some people use it. IRL, spacecraft are controlled by computers similar in function to MechJeb. And an autopilot for a long plane flight is certainly very useful.

I always urge new players to learn how to play the game properly before they install an autopilot like MechJeb, however.

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MechJeb might have its uses - "perfect" accuracy burns being most notable - but more often than not I'd rather fly my crafts manually (unless I'm really really bored). The reason is that MJ disables SAS while it does things (at least with default settings), so anything with thrust offset will wobble off the target marker even if there is enough engine gimbling and reaction wheel torque to keep it pointed straight there -- I should probably start installing RSC thrusters, but my poor PC oftentimes struggles even with crafts that don't have those "extras".

Not spending hours fiddling with maneuver node controls to get a burn that gets you to an exact pe/ap / inclination is another useful feature of MJ, but I do set  any and all SOI-change maneuvers up manually. More wasteful? - Probably, but I tend to overengineer (often, by a factor of 2) anyway, so why not?

As for actual auto-pilots? Ascent one might be finding some use with me, but fine-tuning it to fly more or less efficiently takes more time than launching everything manually anyway. So, unless I'm really really bored AND it's a "Standard Satellite Launcher #XXX", it's a manual flight for me.

Overall, MJ is an assist tool for me.

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12 hours ago, katateochi said:

I think MechJeb is misunderstood by the haters. "It's an autopilot and you're missing out on the fun" (and other similar remarks) is, I think, a rather flawed statement.

The autopilots for launch, landing and docking are just three features in a tool with so many features it would make a swiss-army knife feel insecure about itself. There is so much to MechJeb and while I consider myself a seasoned user of it, there are still features that I've never tried (or have and am still puzzled by). 

 

(A long and very well thought out argument ensues that I have not pasted in its entirety...)

So yeah, there are those to hate (or look down on) MJ use. But there are also those of us how absolutely love it.

Having never used it, I appreciate this great explanation of what it is and what it does.  I can say as a player that began last year, I stayed away from it because of the negative press in forums.  This is a more balanced explanation of what it does.

 

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8 hours ago, RealKerbal3x said:

I always urge new players to learn how to play the game properly before they install an autopilot like MechJeb, however.


There is no such thing as "a" proper way to play KSP.  None.  Zero. Zip. Nada.

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1 minute ago, DerekL1963 said:


There is no such thing as "a" proper way to play KSP.  None.  Zero. Zip. Nada.

This ^^

If you bought it to test yourself on learning the ins-and-outs of space travel with launching, transfers, orbits, and landing, then that's your proper way to play.

If you bought it to build neat rockets and take screenshots while MJ flies them around, then that's your proper way to play.

If you bought this game to specifically see how far you could catapult a kerbal using the exhaust from a Mammoth engine, then..well, that's your proper way to play.

Some of you know me to be absolutely against part clipping of any kind when it comes to moving parts.  I will constantly see crafts build with plane control services, retractable antennas, solar panels, wheels, etc that are inside other parts while moving.  Drives me crazy.  Literally bothers me to look at them.  I can't play that way. 

But you can.  And you're not wrong.

I won't use MJ.  But you can.  And you're not wrong.

It's a single player game, people.  How Bill plays doesn't affect Bob's experience.  And if Bob has a problem with the way Bill plays, then Bob can just ignore Bill.

 

Telling people that they need to learn how to fly properly first is like telling a kid that just got a brand new Lego set for their birthday that they need to build what's on the instruction sheet before they build their own creations.  You wouldn't do that, would you?

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On 10/21/2018 at 7:24 AM, Rocket In My Pocket said:

Is MechJeb hate still a thing?

I think the only thing that bothers me is when I see a new player post a question about how to launch / rendezvous / dock and an MJ proponent responds "it's really, really hard. Just install MJ" or some variation of that. It's a great tool for those who want to use it, but it's not really fair to a new player who actually wants to learn something.

22 hours ago, Xavven said:

But then... but then I got into archery IRL and learned that there are many, many different styles of shooting bows and arrows. All of them count as "archery", and because some modern bows are inherently more accurate than others, the scoring standards are different for different kinds of bows.

Comparing MJ to a compound bow isn't quite a fair comparison. Whether you're using a yew bow or a modern one there's a huge amount of skill required to hit a target. I'd say MJ is more like an automatic arrow launcher that only requires you to load an arrow and point it in the general direction of the target.

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1 hour ago, Tyko said:

I think the only thing that bothers me is when I see a new player post a question about how to launch / rendezvous / dock and an MJ proponent responds "it's really, really hard. Just install MJ" or some variation of that. It's a great tool for those who want to use it, but it's not really fair to a new player who actually wants to learn something.

How is it not fair to point towards something that makes a task easier?  Why do you assume that they want to learn docking rather than viewing it merely as a tedious chore in service of a larger goal?

 

1 hour ago, Tyko said:

Comparing MJ to a compound bow isn't quite a fair comparison. Whether you're using a yew bow or a modern one there's a huge amount of skill required to hit a target. I'd say MJ is more like an automatic arrow launcher that only requires you to load an arrow and point it in the general direction of the target.


[snip]  MJ doesn't design vehicles, if you don't have enough D/V or a t/w greater than unity... MJ won't make up that lack.  MJ doesn't design missions.  It's up to you to choose LOR or EOR (for example), design the appropriate vehicles, and make the decision what to tell MJ to do and when.  Etc... etc...

MJ is a tool, and no different than any other tool it depends on the player's hand to make use of it.

Edited by Snark
Redacted by moderator

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25 minutes ago, DerekL1963 said:

How is it not fair to point towards something that makes a task easier?  Why do you assume that they want to learn docking rather than viewing it merely as a tedious chore in service of a larger goal?

First...I'm not trying to get in an argument here...second...I didn't assume anything. I specifically stated that my opposition was when someone tells a newbie something is too hard and they should just load MJ instead of trying. 

25 minutes ago, DerekL1963 said:
1 hour ago, Tyko said:

Comparing MJ to a compound bow isn't quite a fair comparison. Whether you're using a yew bow or a modern one there's a huge amount of skill required to hit a target. I'd say MJ is more like an automatic arrow launcher that only requires you to load an arrow and point it in the general direction of the target.


[snip]  MJ doesn't design vehicles, if you don't have enough D/V or a t/w greater than unity... MJ won't make up that lack.  MJ doesn't design missions.  It's up to you to choose LOR or EOR (for example), design the appropriate vehicles, and make the decision what to tell MJ to do and when.  Etc... etc...

MJ is a tool, and no different than any other tool it depends on the player's hand to make use of it.

Please note that I specifically said "Load an arrow" meaning I understand the MJ doesn't "make the arrow" please read more carefully before randomly attacking others. I also didn't say that you could put the target a 100 miles away. I said "point it in the general direction of the target"

[snip]

Edited by Snark
Redacted by moderator

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Some content has been removed from this thread because discussion was becoming heated to the point of people making personal remarks about others.

Just a reminder to keep it friendly, folks.  We're all pals, here.

I know you all know this already (right?), but just in case a brief refresher is in order:

  • Do not accuse other people of ignorance.
  • Do not accuse other people of deliberately exaggerating.
  • Do not accuse other people of being unreasonable.
  • Do not claim moral high ground over others-- e.g. "I'm just trying to be reasonable here, I'd appreciate it if you do the same."

Different people like different things.  Different people have widely diverging opinions.  We're all just sharing our personal opinions here.  The fact that someone else has a different opinion than yourself is fine; please don't personally attack them.

And for goodness' sake, please address the post, not the poster.  There's no need to stoop to personal remarks.

Thank you for your understanding.  I trust we can continue this conversation in civil fashion?

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I don't use MechJeb or even KER, in fact the only mod I use is Stockalike Surface Lights.

I also don't hold it against anyone who does use MechJeb or KER or anything else, because as long as they're having fun, how does that affect me?

That said, I always do implore MechJeb users to try the game without it. I did used to use MechJeb myself, years and years and years ago, and the game became a lot more fulfilling to me when I stopped. I'm a lot more proud of my accomplishments now than I was back then, and the screw-ups that happen are just a way for me to mount a fun rescue mission. So if you do use MechJeb, try a new save without it some time, you might like the game even more.

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2 hours ago, DerekL1963 said:


There is no such thing as "a" proper way to play KSP.  None.  Zero. Zip. Nada.

As in, flying manually.

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10 hours ago, Cubivore said:

. So if you do use MechJeb, try a new save without it some time, you might like the game even more.

Nah I just regularly forget to put the ffing module on the craft. And as long as it's simple L/HKO mission i don't even bother to revert and try again.

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It's your own decision if you want to use a particular mod. Nobody can make you or not make you use it, it's entirely up to you. Sure, everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but if you want to use Mechjeb then I see no reason why anyone should stop you.

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There's a few things I could see myself use it for, such as driving on a relatively flat and very big planet (eve/tylo) or flying a plane and not wanting to adjust attitude every 2 minutes.

Where it becomes a problem is when ppl make a Let's play, and they abuse [snip] MJ for everything.  Like, I want to see you play, not have the computer play for you.
If you're going to do it on repeat launches then okay, but just cut the content straight to orbit... It keeps your videos interesting to boot.

I don't hate it per say, it has it uses, but I believe learning how to do docking, rendez-vous, good ascent profiles on worlds you get from and to shouldn't be automated.
It's up to everyone, but you kind of lose the bragging right f MJ does these things for you.
 

Edited by Vanamonde
Mind the language, please.

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On 10/21/2018 at 11:41 PM, katateochi said:

 MJ is also a great instructor for new players; showing them how to launch, land or dock. I much prefer to do those things manually, but MJ taught me a lot at the beginning.

That's an important point. I've no shame to say that without MJ i would have stopped to play because of the progression curve required by KSP. MJ has been an instructor for the gravity burn, Hohmann transfer, docking ... what i can do myself now, i learned it by looking what did MJ and understanding the reason it did it.

MJ allowed me to have some fun in the game as beginner, to orbit Kerbin, to land for the fist time on the Mun, to reach Duna ... :)

The willing to do that by myself came after.

Edited by ndiver
Update from smartphone

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Eh, what the heck... I'll throw in my two Spesos.

I'm fine with MechJeb as long as it's not being used as a crutch. 

Personally, I used it to get a feel for certain things at first, like rendezvous & docking as well as how to do a proper gravity turn. Now, it's mostly used only to automate in system maneuver plotting and for precise attitude control & orientation (particularly for docking).

Honestly though, there are thousands of playstyles and preferences for every player of KSP. There is no one right one, so who am I to judge?

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On 10/22/2018 at 2:25 PM, Snark said:

Some content has been removed from this thread because discussion was becoming heated to the point of people making personal remarks about others

Or in other words, to answer the OP's question... Yes.

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On 10/23/2018 at 1:54 AM, The Aziz said:

Nah I just regularly forget to put the ffing module on the craft. And as long as it's simple L/HKO mission i don't even bother to revert and try again.

If you're a MJ user, the mechjeb for everybody or everything or all or something mod changes every command pod and probe core to already have the MJ module included.   The only time you'll need to add the MJ module to a craft is if you plan to fly a command pod without any crew.    It helps save on part count. 

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24 minutes ago, Gargamel said:

The only time you'll need to add the MJ module to a craft is if you plan to fly a command pod without any crew.


Much easier to just stick a probe core somewhere on the vehicle.  Since pretty much every unmanned command pod I fly has the capability to dock, I generally just tuck it under the Clamp-o-tron.  You can also stick it in a service bay. 

I haven't used an MJ case in ages...  The oldest surviving copy of KSP I have is 090, and the MM script a friend wrote is still sitting there in the Gamedata directory and has been faithfully copied forward with each new release.

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2 minutes ago, DerekL1963 said:

Much easier to just stick a probe core somewhere on the vehicle.

Case weighs far less than a probe core.  And I mainly do this for rescue missions, where the mass of the vessel I have to return is variable, and I might need all the extra dV i can get....

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2 hours ago, Gargamel said:

Case weighs far less than a probe core.  And I mainly do this for rescue missions, where the mass of the vessel I have to return is variable, and I might need all the extra dV i can get....


Makes sense, I rarely have missions that tight on d/v.  (But I play largely in Science mode.)

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I’ve never used it but Mechjeb is fine because it makes the game more accessible to more people.

Some kids need training wheels.  It’s great they make biking more accessible.  Some never outgrow them.  Again it’s great they are biking.  Some people even prefer training wheels because “pick your reason here.”  It’s still great they are biking.

So my advice is to not worry about other people on training wheels because it’s what makes them happy.

 

 

 

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