[Minimum KSP version - 1.11] Kerbal Attachment System (KAS) v1.12

[taniwha]

@Xithyl515 @chris-kerbal The problems you describe about vessels jumping is partly explained in the Base Kraken section of the Extraplanteary Launchpads manual (4.2.1). Essentially, it comes down to the base layout and how sections move about relative to the base's root part (the part with the target icon when you target the whole base and not just a docking port). EL's manual includes some tips that might help, even without the use of EL (and thus launch clamps).

[Tonka Crash]

@chris-kerbal @Soda Popinski @Xithyl515 @darthgently Attaching things to the ground is never permanent in KSP. Using "Docked" mode for connections between vessels on the ground is also likely to eventually break.  Explosions are common. Search this thread for "Ground"  there are lots of complaints about it and some rationalizations about why it doesn't work in the long term.  The only way I've found to permanently anchor things to the ground is to build bases on launchclamps with Extraplanetary Launchpads.  

[infinite_monkey]

2 hours ago, Tonka Crash said:

The only way I've found to permanently anchor things to the ground is to build bases on launchclamps with Extraplanetary Launchpads.  

Did you experience any problems with bases being too high up? I never tried something like this. But since sometimes when editing a vessel with KCT, it's suddenly placed much higher than my original build. I thought something similar might happen with your approach...

If there are no such problems (or not that serious), this looks like a job for @AlphaMensae  - just a platform with adjustable size and color with a ladder and maybe a handrail? In KSP 2, bases look like that anyway...

[Tonka Crash]

3 hours ago, infinite_monkey said:

Did you experience any problems with bases being too high up? I never tried something like this. But since sometimes when editing a vessel with KCT, it's suddenly placed much higher than my original build. I thought something similar might happen with your approach...

If there are no such problems (or not that serious), this looks like a job for @AlphaMensae  - just a platform with adjustable size and color with a ladder and maybe a handrail? In KSP 2, bases look like that anyway...

It hasn't been a problem yet.  They could be a bit closer to the ground, but I haven't seen issues with them being too high.  Ping me in a couple weeks.  The red shape under construction has drills to replace a lander that brought the first drills to the site.  If the drills don't reach dirt then I have a problem.  I just try to set the height in the VAB/SPH to be as low to the ground as possible before saving.  

[AlphaMensae]

3 hours ago, infinite_monkey said:

Did you experience any problems with bases being too high up? I never tried something like this. But since sometimes when editing a vessel with KCT, it's suddenly placed much higher than my original build. I thought something similar might happen with your approach...

If there are no such problems (or not that serious), this looks like a job for @AlphaMensae  - just a platform with adjustable size and color with a ladder and maybe a handrail? In KSP 2, bases look like that anyway...

The reworked Flat Launch Bases in v2.1 of Modular Launch Pads would work for that purpose.  I just have to add a plug for the smallest square exhaust hole to provided a solid deck option, and long downward extensions to the footings to make them reach uneven terrain.  

[infinite_monkey]

37 minutes ago, AlphaMensae said:

The reworked Flat Launch Bases in v2.1 of Modular Launch Pads would work for that purpose.  I just have to add a plug for the smallest square exhaust hole to provided a solid deck option, and long downward extensions to the footings to make them reach uneven terrain.  

Yay   The legs already extend to the ground, the ladders don't (but I think they're still long enough). Plus maybe an option to disable the railings, so you can place the bases next to each other.

Is there a way to disable staging? Fortunately, the generator can already be turned off - for stock launch clamps, you'd have an infinite amount of EC, right?

[AlphaMensae]

17 minutes ago, infinite_monkey said:

Yay   The legs already extend to the ground, the ladders don't (but I think they're still long enough). Plus maybe an option to disable the railings, so you can place the bases next to each other.

Is there a way to disable staging? Fortunately, the generator can already be turned off - for stock launch clamps, you'd have an infinite amount of EC, right?

I meant extend the footings downward, so something would still be visually connected to the ground if the base was placed on the side of a hill.  

The ladders do have a short and tall setting; the railings would require a mesh modification to make toggleable.

I have no idea if launch clamps can have their staging disabled.

[Mitchz95]

I've been away from the game for a while and am just starting to get back into it. I've noticed that the part that worked like a strut (i.e. you could place the two ends, then drag a strut between them) appears to be missing now. Was it removed or am I encountering a bug? Would love to have that functionality back. All I see are the cable and pipe attachments.

EDIT: I think this is a KIS issue, actually. Never mind.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Mitchz95

[Tonka Crash]

@Mitchz95 The parts in this picture are the only parts in the current KAS.  Review the videos in the first post of this thread.  The old pipes no longer exist in this mod.  If you need to know why read through this thread it's been explained over and over, again and again. It seems someone complains about it every couple of pages.

[IgorZ]

@Soda Popinski @chris-kerbal @Xithyl515

TL;DR; The KIS pylons (and one from KAS too) that can attach to surface are no more working properly in KSP. With all the physics improvements and changes during the course of the year, the static attach to the surface became a very dangerous practice. Avoid doing it if you don't want to awake Kraken. Afaik, there is an alternative "anchor" part in USI. It works differently and strictly speaking doesn't fix the vessel position, but it more or less does what's needed - fix the vessel position on the surface.

In nutshell, when the scene is loaded, the vessel in it are placed independently. And the placement is approximate. I.e. there could be exactly 1m distance between the vessels on save, but on load it will be 1.2m. It's not a big deal in the stock game, but if you tether two vessels, then there can be a physical effect. I do not recommend using winches to connect station modules on the surface. Use RTS instead. The latter part does not apply physics on the rope.

[chris-kerbal]

2 hours ago, IgorZ said:

@Soda Popinski @chris-kerbal @Xithyl515

TL;DR; The KIS pylons (and one from KAS too) that can attach to surface are no more working properly in KSP. With all the physics improvements and changes during the course of the year, the static attach to the surface became a very dangerous practice. Avoid doing it if you don't want to awake Kraken. Afaik, there is an alternative "anchor" part in USI. It works differently and strictly speaking doesn't fix the vessel position, but it more or less does what's needed - fix the vessel position on the surface.

In nutshell, when the scene is loaded, the vessel in it are placed independently. And the placement is approximate. I.e. there could be exactly 1m distance between the vessels on save, but on load it will be 1.2m. It's not a big deal in the stock game, but if you tether two vessels, then there can be a physical effect. I do not recommend using winches to connect station modules on the surface. Use RTS instead. The latter part does not apply physics on the rope.

Thanks for the clear answer and all others that helped!

This is probably worthwhile to put into the description of the part, as for noobs like me this seems to be the prime usage for the pylons. ;-)

[pmoffitt]

I am sure this has been addressed somewhere but I have spent several hours trying to find it in the forums.  (Found all sorts of other information of interest while searching the forums, so not a real waste of time.)  When I attach parts using KAS, they tend to slide around not staying with the part they were attached to when the vessel moves (part of a ground base on Minimus docked using RTS1).  This doesn't happen with the same parts if they were built in place using EL (using the pads) or attached in the VAB/SPH and these parts on not the spring attached robotics parts.  (Now that I think about it, they may not be stock parts but KIS / EL parts but I don't think it matters.)  It is almost like the part isn't part of the vessel and physics is moving them it independently of the part it was attached to.  It isn't breaking the connection, the parts are just separating (or it doesn't normally break the connection, it might if they get too far apart).  There are no other parts attached to the part just attached that is moving (relative to the part it was attached to) so the forces on it should be minimal.

Is there a way to control the connection when a Kerbal attaches a part using the Screw Driver or Wrench (is there a difference?) to make it a more solid connection? 

I have seen references to USI's welding of parts, not sure I want to load more mods as I have seen some strange issues with a few mods stepping on each other (specifically,  Restock+ removes stackable from some KIS parts, I should probably post that in the Restock and KIS topics in the forums if it isn't already known).  And I am already getting annoyed with how long it takes to load the game (this laptop shouldn't have such issues as it is an I7, 16 GB ram, SSD, RTX 2060 video running Win 10 Home).

[Tonka Crash]

6 hours ago, pmoffitt said:

I am sure this has been addressed somewhere but I have spent several hours trying to find it in the forums.  (Found all sorts of other information of interest while searching the forums, so not a real waste of time.)  When I attach parts using KAS, they tend to slide around not staying with the part they were attached to when the vessel moves (part of a ground base on Minimus docked using RTS1).  This doesn't happen with the same parts if they were built in place using EL (using the pads) or attached in the VAB/SPH and these parts on not the spring attached robotics parts.  (Now that I think about it, they may not be stock parts but KIS / EL parts but I don't think it matters.)  It is almost like the part isn't part of the vessel and physics is moving them it independently of the part it was attached to.  It isn't breaking the connection, the parts are just separating (or it doesn't normally break the connection, it might if they get too far apart).  There are no other parts attached to the part just attached that is moving (relative to the part it was attached to) so the forces on it should be minimal.

Is there a way to control the connection when a Kerbal attaches a part using the Screw Driver or Wrench (is there a difference?) to make it a more solid connection? 

I have seen references to USI's welding of parts, not sure I want to load more mods as I have seen some strange issues with a few mods stepping on each other (specifically,  Restock+ removes stackable from some KIS parts, I should probably post that in the Restock and KIS topics in the forums if it isn't already known).  And I am already getting annoyed with how long it takes to load the game (this laptop shouldn't have such issues as it is an I7, 16 GB ram, SSD, RTX 2060 video running Win 10 Home).

Can you take some before/after pictures?  It's not something I've ever heard of as being a common problem.

Over the years I've seen a few parts move for some reason, KIS attached or not.  For me it's rare and usually drastic, like a rocket suddenly getting getting a 15 degree kink between tanks that used to be inline.  Or a part that's still attached, but now meters away from where it was originally located and usually pointed at some weird angle.   I usually go to a backup and figure out how to reset the location.

The USI welding is using a special docking port that removes itself from the craft when you tell it weld.  I highly recommend it.  I use it to join modules to space stations and station, but it won't fix randomly moving parts, never for something I can place with KIS.

[pmoffitt]

3 hours ago, Tonka Crash said:

Can you take some before/after pictures?  It's not something I've ever heard of as being a common problem.

Over the years I've seen a few parts move for some reason, KIS attached or not.  For me it's rare and usually drastic, like a rocket suddenly getting getting a 15 degree kink between tanks that used to be inline.  Or a part that's still attached, but now meters away from where it was originally located and usually pointed at some weird angle.   I usually go to a backup and figure out how to reset the location.

The USI welding is using a special docking port that removes itself from the craft when you tell it weld.  I highly recommend it.  I use it to join modules to space stations and station, but it won't fix randomly moving parts, never for something I can place with KIS.

Ok, I can't seem to insert a picture directly into the forum.  Here is a link to the file on google drive:  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ADXZYjRT11LWiAL6Ct_J5YdfOumTe0it/view?usp=sharing hope you can actually view it (ksp2.png is the file name).

This shows a 6 way connector (size 2) that has non-stock clamp attaching it to the ground.  I had attached the EL Survey Module, the adapter and the disposable pad via KAS and they were all vertically aligned (by eye at least).  Now they are not aligned.  It is a pain to get a Kerbal up there to grab and reattach it so I haven't done it as it would probably just wander around again anyway.  I just checked to ensure that autostrut was not enabled.

Most movement issues are with ships that I have docked and can be corrected by saving and reloading.  They pop into the correct place as the base goes on rails. But this isn't the same.

 

[Tonka Crash]

42 minutes ago, pmoffitt said:

Most movement issues are with ships that I have docked and can be corrected by saving and reloading.  They pop into the correct place as the base goes on rails. But this isn't the same.

I've never seen something that bad.  Can you post a log?  Do you see the parts moving in game or do they just load in the wrong spot when you do a scene change? 

You have something really weird going on.  I don't see how this could be due to KIS or KAS or lots of people would probably be reporting issues. After you place a part with KIS it should behave just like any other part in the game. KAS shouldn't be affecting part positions either. 

 

[pmoffitt]

8 minutes ago, Tonka Crash said:

I've never seen something that bad.  Can you post a log?  Do you see the parts moving in game or do they just load in the wrong spot when you do a scene change? 

You have something really weird going on.  I don't see how this could be due to KIS or KAS or lots of people would probably be reporting issues. After you place a part with KIS it should behave just like any other part in the game. KAS shouldn't be affecting part positions either. 

 

I am not sure if you can catch it moving in these logs.  Here is a link to the Google drive folder containing logs, save files etc. related to this Sandbox game if you really want to dig into it:  https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/18RqHToXs1bbFKRMgzHVxfVkut7foSUNH?usp=sharing  CKANList.txt is an exported list of the mods I have installed right now.  I am running Kerbal Space Program - 1.10.1.2939 (WindowsPlayer x64) en-us as reported in the KSP Log.  Do you want to unity or player logs?

Please ignore errors related to ZZZZPatch as I am playing with modifying the OSE Workshop to get the converter to make RocketParts as well as MaterialKits. Just seems a shame that OSE Workshop and ExtraplanetaryLaunchpads use 2 different materials to create essentially the same process. I am trying to see if I can correct that. It isn't working at all yet. (Ok, I can't seem to keep myself from looking under the hood with KSP and mods.) 

I suspect, if this is not normal behavior for KAS / KIS then, it is probably caused by another mod I have installed. I don't believe I have seen it move.  It just seems to move between loads or when switching focus to the the ground base (Ground Base Root).  I swear I can see the Harvester Move, it has popped the RTS connection at least once.  I have had issues with the ELRocketBuilder, it once threw all the Kerbals I had on it into space (that sucked).

I think I should try a clean install of KSP and just put in the minimum modes for running KAS/KIS and see if that has the same issues.

[Tonka Crash]

@pmoffitt try it without Kerbal Joint Reinforcement and see if it's any better. Your mod list isn't too different than mine and that's one mod I've never used and specifically messes with part attachment.

[IgorZ]

4 hours ago, pmoffitt said:

Ok, I can't seem to insert a picture directly into the forum.  Here is a link to the file on google drive:  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ADXZYjRT11LWiAL6Ct_J5YdfOumTe0it/view?usp=sharing hope you can actually view it (ksp2.png is the file name).

I never seen issue like this before. It still can be (hypothetically) an issue of KIS, but there must be other factor affecting it. I bet it's something about another mod compatibility. Btw, when you were assembling the vessel, have you used node attach or surface attach mode?

[pmoffitt]

6 hours ago, IgorZ said:

... Btw, when you were assembling the vessel, have you used node attach or surface attach mode?

Excuse my ignorance, but, how does one switch modes?  Is it just a matter of where you are trying to attach the parts? 

I was attempting to attach to the standard connection nodes at the bottom of the part above it using KAS as I had removed the parts from a separate ship and was attaching them to the new location (trying to save RocketParts for other things).  (Grab and remove then attach with H.)  I was cleaning up and trying to make the base not look like a bunch of separate ships that I landed there and then connected using RTS1 (which it kind of was/is).  I was hoping to reduce or control relative movement of the base and also see if I could reduce some the the physics latency that was starting to show up.

Oh, I wonder if this laptop is getting warm and slowing down the video card causing some of the lag. (You try to figure out a good way to remove heat off an RTX-2060 that's in a laptop, it isn't easy.  Yes, I was once a thermal analysist.) More things to look at.

[Tonka Crash]

1 hour ago, pmoffitt said:

Excuse my ignorance, but, how does one switch modes?  Is it just a matter of where you are trying to attach the parts? 

'R' key toggles between attachment nodes and/or surface attachment depending on what's defined in the part.

[pmoffitt]

3 hours ago, Tonka Crash said:

'R' key toggles between attachment nodes and/or surface attachment depending on what's defined in the part.

I have never noticed a difference using that key.  Any easy way to tell which mode you are in?

Never mind, open eyes, it tells you when you have the part in your hand which node is being used. 

I have removed the joint reinforcement mode.  I got the parts reattached (even right side up this time cause R works).  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1erW8dnS12vrmOhKFMuYwiwI86ZTbO-3f/view?usp=sharing

Let's see if they stay that way.

And it already has moved.  I stopped after putting those parts back into place and now just started the game again and they have already moved.  https://drive.google.com/file/d/15zp_YOceZUg-UZmF7fS_aucRNGsJmCJg/view?usp=sharing

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by pmoffitt

[taniwha]

@pmoffitt youch. I got some weird shifting of parts (in 1.9.1), but not that bad. However, they had been placed using EL's micro-pad. Also, that particular vessel seemed to be quite cursed: I remember having a terrible time with it trowing itself into space (off the surface of Minmus) on scene load until I managed to hack something (I don't remember what) in my save file. However, I am not using KJR or any robotics parts (IR or BG).

I do remember a couple of times in KSP 1.6 my entire base shifting several meters (despite using launch clamps) when starting/stopping (don't remember) timewarp, but it happened only the one time to each of two bases. The first time, the "damage" was minor and I needed only to fix the placement of a bunch of small parts (drills, batteries, fuel cells, etc). The second time, the base actually broke in two and I had to bolt them together using the old KAS pipe (that is now gone, grrr @IgorZ).

Also, recently, I've had a lot of trouble with vessels landed on an EL landing pad popping up on scene load, falling back to the pad, then KSP thinking the vessel is still sub-orbital until I actually fly the ship up about a meter and let it land again (I've now got test code that causes any vessel touching an EL "launch pad" (orbital dock, landing pad, etc (ie, the build and release parts)) to take on the same situation status as the parent ship. However, I very much doubt this is related.

I suspect that we (you, me, @Tonka Crash (skewed parts counts just as much as shifted), @IgorZ and anybody else that runs into similar issues) will all need to keep an eye on this issue and hopefully we can compare notes and preferably before and after save files.

[pmoffitt]

I did a thing.  First I removed the Persistent Thrust and Parking Break mods. That didn't instantly correct the issue but I didn't expect it to until the locations were corrected.

Then I edited the persistent.sfs file by setting the x and z position of the moved parts to that of the sspx-hub-25-1 (6-way connector) above them.  I then loaded the game and as I could now select the ladder that got sucked into the parts and reattached it using KAS where I wanted it.

I switched vessels a bit, went back to Space Center.  Then switched back to Ground Base Root.  All the parts but the ladder stayed were they were supposed to. Ok, one of the heavy pieces of the base jumps a bit without parking brake but so far not too bad.

This is beginning to feel like the location set when I attach the part via KAS isn't right or changes very quickly for some reason (I can't imagine why as I can't tell in the sfs file that a part was attached via KAS).  I should have saved a few games so I could have looked at the location of the ladder before I switched vessels  but I didn't think of that at the time.  But, it isn't happening to every part, just some.  I haven't noticed the pattern to that yet.

Any idea what launchID is used for?  The parts connected via KAS are not changing launchID, not sure if that is good, bad or indifferent.

Spoiler

In persistent-old.sfs:  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kLboIzfuS3o6mLPmEm6i0jVgfqX484DA/view?usp=sharing

Line 81454    sspx-hub-25-1 (6-way connector)
                position = -34.997200012207031,4.1044483184814453,-21.849395751953125
                rotation = 0.540649295,0.455509275,-0.455183595,0.541310906

Line 84067    ELSurveystation                
                position = -35.138134002685547,1.6310348510742188,-20.782506942749023
                rotation = 8.99768747E-06,0.651559889,0.000218760673,0.758597195
                
Line 86972    telescopicLadderBay
                position = -35.527885437011719,2.5179557800292969,-20.544857025146484
                rotation = -0.996943593,-0.000349694776,-0.0781256929,-1.09960929E-05
                
Line 87183    sspx-adapter-125-25-2
                position = -35.08392333984375,0.55728530883789063,-21.19481086730957
                rotation = 0.760979652,0.000379957841,-0.648775578,0.000187018144
                
Line 87317    ELMicroPad
                position = -35.045352935791016,-0.45148468017578125,-20.973487854003906
                rotation = 0.760000646,0.000379148638,-0.649922192,0.00017069673
                
I removed the persistant burn and parking break mods. That didn't instantly correct the issue but I didn't expect it to untl the locations were corrected.

I copied the x and z location from the sspx-hub-25-1 into the ELSurveystation, sspx-adapter-125-25-2 and ELMicroPad.
These parts now appear to hold relative position.

I used KAS to move the telescopicLadderBay to the correct location I didn't know the coordinates for that as it is surface mounted not connected to vertical access shared by the other parts.

In persistent-new.sfs: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UghX1GT061Te0WZWy6F3CG5CJyRw7NkM/view?usp=sharing

Line 81454    sspx-hub-25-1 (6-way connector)
                persistentId = 2203839957
                position = -34.997200012207031,4.1044483184814453,-21.849395751953125
                rotation = 0.540649295,0.455509275,-0.455183595,0.541310906
                
Line 84067    ELSurveystation
                persistentId = 2097016524
                position = -34.997200012207031,1.6310348510742188,-21.849395751953125
                rotation = 8.99768747E-06,0.651559889,0.000218760673,0.758597195

Line 87324    telescopicLadderBay
                persistentId = 1238550425
                position = -35.787677764892578,0.78533172607421875,-22.882942199707031
                rotation = -0.000201445961,-0.0841941386,-0.000834416773,0.996449113
                
Line 87090    sspx-adapter-125-25-2
                persistentId = 595816283
                position = -34.997200012207031,0.55728530883789063,-21.849395751953125
                rotation = 0.760979652,0.000379957841,-0.648775578,0.000187018144

Line 87224    ELMicroPad
                persistentId = 2161176433
                position = -34.997200012207031,-0.45148468017578125,-21.849395751953125
                rotation = 0.760000646,0.000379148638,-0.649922192,0.00017069673

I have actually been building on my Minimus Base again (instead of trying to figure out why things were not working they way I wish). It seems that I am not having random part movements anymore.  I kind of miss parking brake but it isn't the end of the world.  And bonus, I can now time warp without issue.  So the problems I was having appear to be associated with one or more of the modes I have removed:  Kerbal Joint Reinforcement Continued, Persistent Thrust,  Parking Break (probably one or both of the last 2).  Maybe I should reinstall Parking Break and see what happens.

Edited September 23, 2020 by pmoffitt

[Neil Kermstrong]

Is there any way to connect cables without kerbals? I want to launch a rover in curiosity-style but it won't let me attach in editor or unmanned

[Tonka Crash]

2 hours ago, Neil Kermstrong said:

Is there any way to connect cables without kerbals? I want to launch a rover in curiosity-style but it won't let me attach in editor or unmanned

You can connect a socket directly to the winch that should spool out the cable.  This was a test craft from May (around page 64 of this thread) testing a problem another player had.  It's tricky to get it right.  I found it real easy to snap off the lander.  With KSP this complexity isn't really necessary.  It's much simpler to just land with the skycrane attached, detach and then launch the skycrane again.