[KSP 1.12.1+] Galileo's Planet Pack [v1.6.6] [23 Sept 2021]

[ThreePounds]

6 minutes ago, OhioBob said:

Icarus never had an atmosphere.  Maybe you're thinking of something else.

I figured. I must be seeing some sort of artifact with KSPTOT when I read the data from GPP 1.4.0.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Three_Pounds

[Galileo]

7 minutes ago, Three_Pounds said:

speaking of changes. Did Icarus atmosphere get removed? I am not seeing it any more.

Icarus never had an atmosphere 

damn nijas/ not refreshed pages

Edited September 7, 2017 by Galileo

[Tyko]

2 hours ago, OhioBob said:

The dV subway map was made by @JadeOfMaar, so it's up to him on whether or not he wants to share it.  I've already run most of the calculations for the other scales, so I've got all that data.  The only thing I don't have is the launch dV for the bodies with atmospheres.  For the original map the launch dV were obtained by in-game tests, and I just didn't feel like taking the time to redo all of that.

I'll take a shot at the atmosphere launches for 2.5x to begin with. Once I've gotten a system down I can look at covering the other scales as well. I'm a bit intimidated by Tellumo - especially at 6.4x and 10x scales

Sounds like I have a weekend project     Do you have the target altitudes above atmosphere determined already?

Edited September 7, 2017 by Tyko

[OhioBob]

3 minutes ago, Tyko said:

I'll take a shot at the atmosphere launches for 2.5x to begin with.

I've estimated the dV for a Gael launch at 4700 m/s.  I haven't done any of the others, though.  That would include Niven, Tellumo, Gratian, Augustus, Catullus, Tarsiss, Hadrian, and Hox.

[KAL 9000]

Telemetry indicates that Macfred has landed! A complete set of sensor readings from the entire descent is attached to the report. Communications to the surface and voice chat with Macfred require more bandwidth than the drop pod's communications systems have available. If Macfred is sticking to the mission plan, he should be extracting the primary communications array from one of the KIS containers and deploying it. 

UPDATE: We have a signal from the primary array! Macfred reports that everything went smoothly and he is none the worse for wear from his ordeal. He does mention being slightly uncomfortable in the higher gravity (the ship's centrifuge was spun to emulate Gael-normal gravity), but is confident that he will adapt in a few days. 

The return-to-orbit vessel will land in 150 days, if all goes to plan. By then, the rest of the crew will have joined him in their own drop pods. The primary habitat and greenhouse units are stowed in KIS containers on the first supply drop. 

Macfred reports that he has found life! The limited scientific equipment that was able to fit in the drop pod included a microscope, and he's imaged bacteria in a surface sample! After triple-checking that this was not due to contamination from his vessel, he contacted GSC immediately. 

From what we can ascertain so far, the bacteria are similar if not identical to Gaelian bacteria. Panspermia is a likely explanation, as meteorite traffic between the two worlds would be commonplace in the early days of the Ciro system. 

Macfred has requisitioned for the science lab to be landed ahead of schedule, so he can perform a more in-depth study as quickly as possible.

[Rocketology]

8 hours ago, Gordon Fecyk said:

I was experimenting with NASA's EngineSimU that supports specifying pressures much higher than 101.3 kPa. First I was looking to model the stock engines, but just haven't set time aside to play with it yet. Once I modeled a stock engine at Earth / Kerbin sea level, I was going to up the pressure and see what happens.

At first it seems one would get a lot more thrust at the expense of having to maintain a higher chamber pressure, and thus have a lower specific impulse. You'd be drawing and exhausting a lot more air at once and burning a lot more fuel at once unless you throttled back a lot. I keep imagining Red October's Caterpillar Drive in water when thinking about flying a jet through a super thick atmosphere. For gameplay though, I'd might want to instead introduce a thrust governor that would reduce thrust and maintain specific impulse, since you'd have a lot more lift with thicker air as well.

I'm no jet engineer either. At first I just wanted jet engines on Eve. Worked out the chemistry OK, which resulted in lower-but-manageable ISP, but I really should tune for pressure as well. Tellumo looks like a great place to try out actual air-breathing jets at those pressures.

I haven't messed with jet engines on Tellumo, yet, but what are the curves in Advanced Jet Engine? Do they continue beyond 1 atmo? If so, the work is already done and just needs to be borrowed, if possible.

 

[linuxgurugamer]

Just an FYI, your instructions still refer to 1.5.0:

Quote

5. Download Galileo’s Planet Pack 1.5.0

 

[JadeOfMaar]

2 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Just an FYI, your instructions still refer to 1.5.0:

Whatever, Linux. Whatever. I fixed it.

[Galileo]

12 hours ago, KAL 9000 said:

Telemetry indicates that Macfred has landed! A complete set of sensor readings from the entire descent is attached to the report. Communications to the surface and voice chat with Macfred require more bandwidth than the drop pod's communications systems have available. If Macfred is sticking to the mission plan, he should be extracting the primary communications array from one of the KIS containers and deploying it. 

UPDATE: We have a signal from the primary array! Macfred reports that everything went smoothly and he is none the worse for wear from his ordeal. He does mention being slightly uncomfortable in the higher gravity (the ship's centrifuge was spun to emulate Gael-normal gravity), but is confident that he will adapt in a few days. 

The return-to-orbit vessel will land in 150 days, if all goes to plan. By then, the rest of the crew will have joined him in their own drop pods. The primary habitat and greenhouse units are stowed in KIS containers on the first supply drop. 

Macfred reports that he has found life! The limited scientific equipment that was able to fit in the drop pod included a microscope, and he's imaged bacteria in a surface sample! After triple-checking that this was not due to contamination from his vessel, he contacted GSC immediately. 

From what we can ascertain so far, the bacteria are similar if not identical to Gaelian bacteria. Panspermia is a likely explanation, as meteorite traffic between the two worlds would be commonplace in the early days of the Ciro system. 

Macfred has requisitioned for the science lab to be landed ahead of schedule, so he can perform a more in-depth study as quickly as possible.

Why have you not started a forum novel based on this???

Edited September 8, 2017 by Galileo

[Gordon Fecyk]

Testing High Pressure Jets on Tellumo

Before I start fiddling with jet engine float curves on Tellumo, I figured I first needed a Tellumo Space Program. (17 KB ZIP)

That zip file contains replacement configs for Gael, Tellumo and attendant moons. With it, one can try launching aircraft from Tellumo sea level with air-breathing engines. It includes a similar hack to GregroxMun's Alien Space Programs that adds a sliver of 1 ATM air so the game calculates specific impulses correctly, but the sea level pressure, at least according to Ferram Aerospace, still gets as high as 12 atmospheres at night (!!!! - Does that sound right? I know pressure increases as temperature decreases, but by that much?)

I plan on using that to try extending the atmCurve and atmosphereCurve values of the stock jet engines based on the EngineSimU modeling results.

If you try that, I really recommend doing it on another copy of KSP with GPP installed, so you don't risk breaking your saves.

@RocketPCGaming after a cursory look at AJE, it appears there was no attempt to extend the float curves beyond one atmosphere. Though the part pack does include some real world engines that should be easier to model in EngineSimU. That could help somewhat.

(Wait... so AJE doesn't actually use the float curves and calculates thrust in real time? Am I reading that correctly?)

 

Edited September 8, 2017 by Gordon Fecyk
Added AJE discovery

[OhioBob]

4 minutes ago, Gordon Fecyk said:

... but the sea level pressure, at least according to Ferram Aerospace, still gets as high as 12 atmospheres at night (!!!! - Does that sound right? I know pressure increases as temperature decreases, but by that much?)

That doesn't sound right at all.  In KSP, pressure never changes, it's the density that changes.  It's conceivable density can change by that much, but the day-night variation on Tellumo isn't large enough to produce that big of a difference.

The relationship is, ρ₂ = ρ₁ * (T₁ / T₂).

[ThreePounds]

My first Iota fly-by probe heading out into interplanetary space - without power unfortunately - saying one last good-bye to Iota

Edited September 8, 2017 by Three_Pounds

[Gordon Fecyk]

9 hours ago, OhioBob said:

That doesn't sound right at all.  In KSP, pressure never changes, it's the density that changes.

I got the language wrong then; sorry about that. FAR is reporting "ATM Density," not "ATM Pressure." And ATM Density is coming up as just over twelve in the FAR Flight Data panel in the middle of the Tellumo night at sea level.

Still, I'll see if the FAR-reported density changes with ambient temperature when I get back.

I might have also goofed on the atmosphere float curve. I added a 0.0001 m sliver of 1 ATM air, but I also commented-out the staticPressureASL line in an attempt to emulate GregroxMun's ISP fixes for Alien Space Programs. Here are the changed bits:

			// Atmosphere Pressure
			// Best to define this in the pressure curve
			// GregroxMun commented this out in Alien Space Programs to use a rocket ISP workaround below
			// staticPressureASL = 1013.25
			pressureCurveIsNormalized = False
			pressureCurve
			{
				//Sliver of Kerbin-level air to make sure rocket ISP was consistent
				key = 0	101.325	-1.21756857142857E-02 -1.21756857142857E-02
				key = 0.0001 1013.25 0 -0.301558
				key = 1000 748.035 -0.231454 -0.231454

...and the rest is unchanged. This is a pressure curve, not a density curve, so maybe pressure is correct and density really is 12 ATM.

Edited September 8, 2017 by Gordon Fecyk
Added edits to pressureCurve to make sure I didn't mess it up

[KAL 9000]

11 hours ago, Galileo said:

Why have you not started a forum novel based on this???

Because I'm never able to commit to them 

For now, these Galileo missions will stay as snippets in the mod release thread.

[KAL 9000]

UPDATE: The first supply drops have touched down on Tellumo near Macfred, and he has set up the habitat, greenhouse, and lab. A rover has also been landed, and an expedition to a nearby anomaly is planned when the rest of the crew arrive. 

As for the anomalous asteroid flying between Tellumo and Niven, the Tracking Station computers are saying that the object's mass kept fluctuating for a roughly 5-minute period of time. This, of course, is patently ridiculous. What's really happening is that the computers are revising their estimate of the object's mass to make an N-Body simulation of the gravitational forces acting on it conform to its observed trajectory. 

To see what happens, Wernher has told the computers to regard the object as a spacecraft. 

Immediately, the mass issue is resolved. The object has a mass of roughly ten tons, and it appears to have performed a course-correction burn to reduce the distance to Niven on its closest approach. Radio emissions have also been picked up from the object. These emissions are more likely transmissions, as they are aimed at Tellumo, and clearly modulated to a degree that they are obviously artificial.  

It is entirely possible, indeed likely, that we have encountered a First Contact scenario. 

[OhioBob]

2 hours ago, Gordon Fecyk said:

I got the language wrong then; sorry about that. FAR is reporting "ATM Density," not "ATM Pressure." And ATM Density is coming up as just over twelve in the FAR Flight Data panel in the middle of the Tellumo night at sea level.

Still, I'll see if the FAR-reported density changes with ambient temperature when I get back.

I might have also goofed on the atmosphere float curve. I added a 0.0001 m sliver of 1 ATM air, but I also commented-out the staticPressureASL line in an attempt to emulate GregroxMun's ISP fixes for Alien Space Programs. Here are the changed bits:

			// Atmosphere Pressure
			// Best to define this in the pressure curve
			// GregroxMun commented this out in Alien Space Programs to use a rocket ISP workaround below
			// staticPressureASL = 1013.25
			pressureCurveIsNormalized = False
			pressureCurve
			{
				//Sliver of Kerbin-level air to make sure rocket ISP was consistent
				key = 0	101.325	-1.21756857142857E-02 -1.21756857142857E-02
				key = 0.0001 1013.25 0 -0.301558
				key = 1000 748.035 -0.231454 -0.231454

...and the rest is unchanged. This is a pressure curve, not a density curve, so maybe pressure is correct and density really is 12 ATM.

The density of Tellumo air varies, but depending on where you are, it could be 12 kg/m³, so that makes sense now.

So are you proposing making changes to the atmosphere's pressure curve?  I don't think I want to do that.  I though you were talking about changing the "atmCurve" in the engine cfgs.

[Gordon Fecyk]

53 minutes ago, OhioBob said:

I though you were talking about changing the "atmCurve" in the engine cfgs

Yes, that's all. I don't want to mess with these worlds' settings. Sorry for the confusion. I posted the pressureCurve changes here for review to make sure I didn't break Tellumo's atmosphere.

For the ease of testing and refining jet engines' float curves, I wanted to start sandbox games from Tellumo rather than HyperEdit craft out there. That comes with its own challenges; something to do with the home world's 0 m air pressure having an impact on all engine performance. So the 0.0001 m of 1 ATM air and the omission of staticPressureASL is just a hack to make engines behave. I don't believe it otherwise affects how the atmosphere behaves, based on my experience with Alien Space Programs. Maybe that problem was fixed in KSP versions beyond 1.1 and the hack is unnecessary?

[Human Person]

Scott Gaelan decided to fly to Icarus without reading the wiki first. Of course He did't think about radiators when freezing himself for the journey. Keen to land, he jumped out of the freezing chamber into one of the two landers he brought. The landers are built as light as possible, with external command seats and no radiators. He had to abort the landing in the Coelom (the nice green spot of Icarus) because he started to get a little warm the lower he got. After the seat litterally exploded under him, he managed to just so fly to orbit with his EVA suit and get back to the mothership.

Now he asks himself if the strange and clearly dangerous phenomenon only occurs in the biome he tried to land in, or if he maybe can safely take the second lander to the night side of Icarus.

Greetings from Icarus!

Edited September 8, 2017 by Physics Student

[OhioBob]

3 hours ago, Gordon Fecyk said:

For the ease of testing and refining jet engines' float curves, I wanted to start sandbox games from Tellumo rather than HyperEdit craft out there.

I came up with a work around as well for some tests I did earlier this year.  I wanted to launch a bunch of rockets from each of the bodies with atmospheres to figure out how much delta-v it would take (for the delta-v map).  I didn't want to HyperEdit my rockets to the planet, so I brought the planet to my rockets.  I edited Gael's cfg by changing its size and gravity, and by copying the other planet's atmosphere curves over those of Gael.  For all practical purposes, I turned Gael into the planet I wanted to launch from.  I could just launch from the launch pad and get all the data I needed.

[MaxxQ]

8 minutes ago, OhioBob said:

I came up with a work around as well for some tests I did earlier this year.  I wanted to launch a bunch of rockets from each of the bodies with atmospheres to figure out how much delta-v it would take (for the delta-v map).  I didn't want to HyperEdit my rockets to the planet, so I brought the planet to my rockets.  I edited Gael's cfg by changing its size and gravity, and by copying the other planet's atmosphere curves over those of Gael.  For all practical purposes, I turned Gael into the planet I wanted to launch from.  I could just launch from the launch pad and get all the data I needed.

Y'know...  In some ways, I would REALLY like that to be a toggle, or even a separate mod.  It would make testing craft for various planets/moons so much easier (than trying to fiddle with KER's gravity and atmo settings - in my case, forget about altering .cfg files).

I realize how difficult that would be to implement, so I don't ever expect it to happen, but the idea of it...

Edit: think of it as an in-game simulator.  I know I could just use Hyperedit to do the same thing, maybe in sandbox, but I still haven't figured out how to use HE, so I don't even have it installed.

Edited September 8, 2017 by MaxxQ

[OhioBob]

1 minute ago, MaxxQ said:

Y'know...  In some ways, I would REALLY like that to be a toggle, or even a separate mod.  It would make testing craft for various planets/moons so much easier (than trying to fiddle with KER's gravity and atmo settings - in my case, forget about altering .cfg files).

I realize how difficult that would be to implement, so I don't ever expect it to happen, but the idea of it...

I agreed, it would be a really nice test feature.

[Ant432]

My new PC is up and running. I should be able to get KSP next Tuesday

[gamerscircle]

Hey all..
 

I need some help please, I posted this message in the general support for modded games and wanted to reach out here.

Please let me know if there is anything that I can supply to help with this.

[Gordon Fecyk]

Oh hell yes... jet engines have a massive performance boost in thicker air!

Engine	Thrust (Kerbin, kN)	Thrust (Tellumo, kN)	ISP (Kerbin, s)	ISP (Tellumo, s)
Juno	9.7	29.6	3446.9	3546.1
Wheesley	26.1	213.2	8700.0	8945.5
Panther (Dry)	57.2	252.1	4722.1	4773.0
Panther (Wet)	94.4	299.8	2396.2	2479.2
Whiplash	130.7	517.6	2897.0	3010.7
R.A.P.I.E.R. (Air)	115.0	510.7	1631.6	1803.7
Goliath	185.6	482.2	9320.2	9307.2

Testing conditions, Kerbin: Pressure 100.27 kPa, Density 1.137 kg/m³, Temperature 307.17 K, Speed 0 m/s, Altitude 70 m

Testing conditions, Tellumo: Pressure 983.65 kPa, Density 12.307 kg/m³, Temperature 278.9 K, Speed 0 m/s, Altitude 99 m

This is all courtesy of the Advanced Jet Engines mod, that apparently skips float curves entirely and calculates thrust based on the surrounding environment. It uses NASA's EngineSim code, saving me a whole lot of trouble. The engines are not 'really' stock engines but are real-world versions of them, but for familiarity I use their stock names here.

I can at least draw these conclusions: Specific Impulse is not significantly impacted by the environment alone, so I don't need to mess with atmosphereCurve on the stock engines. Thrust is definitely impacted by the mass of air it has to process, though it varies between engines, so extending atmCurve will have to increase thrust in denser air. Speed impacts specific impulse and thrust in the real world, but KSP uses velCurve to approximate it and I probably don't need to mess with that either.

In addition to these static values, I took video footage of flights with the stock Aeris 3A and different engines. Yes, including the Goliath! I'll post examples later. I'll use that to view the thrust values at different speeds and air densities, and then figure out the atmCurves based on this. I'll probably need to redo things on Kerbin without AJE installed just for a sanity check on velCurves vs AJE's interpretation, but I suspect the speed / thrust comparison will be close enough, if scaled down somewhat compared to stock.

And if you think this is too cheaty as it is getting to and from Tellumo's surface, wait until I apply the same adaptations to Explodium Breathing Engines for use on Catullus... 

[Stupid question and update 09 SEP] I can suspend craft as high as 10 km up on launch clamps for static thrust tests. But I want opinions or suggestions: Based on the sea level static tests, is it enough to just record the static thrust at different altitudes and base atmCurve extensions off that? 

Edited September 9, 2017 by Gordon Fecyk
Asking for opinions on engine tuning

[JadeOfMaar]

22 minutes ago, Gordon Fecyk said:

Oh hell yes... jet engines have a massive performance boost in thicker air!

-snip-

And if you think this is too cheaty as it is getting to and from Tellumo's surface, wait until I apply the same adaptations to Explodium Breathing Engines for use on Catullus... 

Well this is comforting. I've only modded one jet engine so far, explicitly for full use in denser atmosphere... Conversely, rocket engines get worse, right?  And I did make the Karbonite jet engines slightly more powerful at Kerbin/Gael sea level. For reasons™

I wouldn't consider this cheaty. At the end of the play session, anyone who flies on Tellumo still has to deal with much more drag and much more gravity (or in Catullus' case, a much taller atmosphere).