ADD MOD PARTS

[Director Kerman]

Hey guys, I recently had an idea about how to save people from having to install mods just to have the game troll them by crashing right when they look at the screen.

The idea is that Take2 will pay a little money ($100 or so) or make a deal with the mod developers to "buy" their mods from them and bring the mods back in to development by Take2 and add more parts, remove bugs, etc. I don't know if people will agree with this cause of all the rumors about mods when Take2 bought the game.

For example lets look at the stock mk2 parts. At one point they were all mod parts then they were brought to the stock game. So, lets say the mod had a lot of bugs and had 4 parts. When it was brought to the stock game, they had no bugs, more parts, etc.

ADD MOD PARTS:

mod developers + Take2 (make a deal)   ->   take2 takes the mod files for analysis (remove bugs and add more parts)  ->   the mod parts become stock parts (no need to install mods) =

FINAL PRODOUCT (TAKE2 ):  Take2 gets money because people will see that they have more parts and take2 doesn't have to spent money on modelers because all they need to do is put the mod parts in game. And if Take2 will make more DLC, for example, the kso mod. They can add that mod to the game and later on have an expansion pack called KSO expansion, or something like that.

FINAL PRODOUCT  (PLAYERS) : Players wont have to install mods cause its a pain to get all the right folders and go through all the trouble just to have their game crash.

So, who thinks this is a good idea.

[Vince_K]

really bad idea. I want to chose how I play the game and I don't think mod developer will sold their hard work for 100$

[SpannerMonkey(smce)]

1 hour ago, Director Kerman said:

($100 or so)

no really it's not April again is it .  SO for the mod developers not inconsiderable time,  you're willing to allow $100, what per item , or per mod?   Several mods available for this game contain many more parts than ever supplied by Squad (god bless their cotton socks)  a few i can think of would comprise a half decent games content, never mind a few more parts. As for the time invested,, for a decent mature mod think years, not weeks. 

Lets be honest here, brutally so, the mods in this game are generally, if the modder knows the score, less buggy and better maintained than the game they run in, however they are all restricted by what unity and the KSP API allows them to do, having the mods brought in game will not change that.

If you seriously think  that by bringing mods into the game it will somehow make it better,  you are mistaken,  the games already laboring under a very tired code base, many of the mods have plugins of one sort attached, some of which do things that Squad never considered, and all of that would have to be added to the base game, and guess what , you think 1.4.ughh is messy ,  it barely comes close to what would happen.  We wont even go into the many different art styles present, oh yes some of them look stockalike, but hold them up to stock, and guess what looks the best ( and don't even try to state otherwise) , not the stock parts , not by a long way, so more styles, more parts that don't look like they belong   so more chaos. 
 

So to bringing mods into the game, It's a big fat NO.

In general most mod users would be better off , reading the mods thread , checking any issues, and the proper install procedure, instead of banging on the 'I want it now' button of the mod manager of their choice.

BTW KSP player since 2012 so i've seen it all in a gazillion hours of heavily modded playtime.
 

This has been done to death 1000 times, it's even in the things they wont do list.  So a swift locking is in order.

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/129403-check-here-first-common-suggestions/

Edited May 22, 2018 by SpannerMonkey(smce)
removed troublesome wordings

[Gargamel]

So, @SpannerMonkey(smce), how many hours in modding have you done?  So if you divide the $100 by that many hours..... let's see carry the 2... you get right around bumpus per hour right?  Pretty sure that's way below minimum wage in developing countries. 

To make it worth the time of the modder to feel they have been properly rewarded, I would expect to see a 4-5 figure payout for the rights to the mod.  Of course, there's lots of legal mumbo jumob that goes back and forth there, but not the point.  

To most people who work for a living, $100 is a few hours to a days pay.   The modders have put in way more than this. 

[4x4cheesecake]

10 minutes ago, Gargamel said:

Of course, there's lots of legal mumbo jumob that goes back and forth there, but not the point.

Actually, I'm quiet curious. Just in theory, would it be possible to merge a mod in stock which is published with CC, GNU, MIT or whatever licence? At least CC does not allow a commercial usage, does it?

Anyway, I prefer to decide for myself which (parts-) mods are installed instead of having more stock parts. When I started to play this game ~3 month ago,  all the available parts in sandbox mode were already overwhelming and I had no idea what parts can be used for a proper rocket. But today, I know all the parts and also added some more with mods, so the game can expanse along with my experience and I just have to add parts which are required for my desired playstyle instead of having dozens other parts I don't need/want.

[Mark Kerbin]

Well @4x4cheesecake as far as my minimal (nil) legal knowledge goes, if someone owns a mod, they control the license on it and can thus decide to sell it. Pretty sure the license can be changed in most cases. And there is definitely precedent for mods being stock, lots of games incorporate popular mods.

 Unless it’s like public domain,  not sure if you can revoke that. Of course then again it seems like the new EULA basically signs all mods over to T2 as soon as you post them anyway... Not a lawyer tho.

[Stops referring to 4x4 here]

Totally agree with the ““for like $100”  lmao!” sentiment. In the incredibly short time working on a contract pack for another mod, I’ve sunk a good few days of my life into messing with that. Now I may be doing it just for fun, but it doesn’t mean I, or the original dev ( severedsolo, not tagging because we all have better things to worry about) feel like just handing over all that work for basically free. And some devs treat their mods like their child, (or pet project, same idea) they are probably not interested in giving it up for some insanely low amount of money.

And that another issue with the, ohhh just give them all 100 dollars, thing. Most mods here have had multiple devs who have or are working on them. Who gets that money? I mean look at linuxgamer (not tagging for same reason), the guy is maintaining 130+ mods. Does he get 100 dollar each mod, or 100 dollars total. What about the original devs? Do they get any? What about the ones who are completely uncontactable? Are they going to go pick and choose what mods to steal? Who’s in charge of that, what’s the criteria?

Also (Yes I’m ranting. Deal. Better directed at some stupid idea), I do not want USI parts in my game. I don’t want SpaceY parts in my game. I don’t want more realistic aerodynamics. (No offense to the devs of those mods, it’s just personal preference.)  

See that’s the thing. There are a ton of mods for this game. Parts mods, visual mods, physics mods, there’s probably some anime mod somewhere. My computer would die running all that, and I don’t even want 99% of them. 

Speaking of which, who the  is going to maintain all that stuff. Squad is busy enough already dealing with stock updates and bug fixes. They have to spend time making sure they don’t break everyone’s game. They try keep things from being unbalanced and the same time have to juggle not breaking people’s crafts! They needed to add a legacy system to keep parts working until people can update the compatibility! Now they have to deal with keep mods that are inherently incompatible, like idk, ferram aerospace (autocorrect is having a field day) and stock aerodynamics? SVE and Astronomers visual pack? Point is, its  literally impossible even with a massive dev team and infinite funding.

*Sucks in air, despite the fact that this is typed not spoken*

Wait. This is all for your convenience? What. Kerbin does not orbit around you buddy boy. I do love how you made a little explanation as to how T2 and players benefit. Small issue though.

A) No, mods don’t just randomly crash your game, they break sometimes, but bugs get fixed. You either have a potato that you mistook for a gaming computer, or you have several layers of gamedata folders in gamedata folders.

B) Aren’t we forgetting one teensy-weensy but ever-so-crucial tiny little detail?

No, I, or anyone else for that matter, don’t feel like having to pay for something I can already get for free, and or something that, lets not forget, made myself. 

C) Go get CKAN or just do some more research. Quit making me rant.

I spent far to much time typing this, more than I care to admit. I think I’ve run out of rant fuel, (also know as windows 10 admin controls + windows defender). I wanted to direct it at far more important things, but I guess a very one sided argument my side and already won is good enough.

 

Ok Im done. If you read all that, fair play to ya. Emotion and tone don’t do well over the internet, so feel free to misinterpret.

Back to class with me. Toodles.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Mark Kerbin

[4x4cheesecake]

@Mark Kerbin (yeah I just tagged you but don't worry, just a short response^^)

Just read the EULA paragraph referring to user created content and I'm not sure if mods are covered...the paragraph tells about content created by the software (KSP) and a mod is more like "created for the software"...but I'm also not a lawyer^^

Nice rant though

[Mark Kerbin]

I do try to strive for 95% accuracy. 

[Geonovast]

$10,000 would be an insult to some of the mod makers around here.  I can think of several members around here who likely have thousands of hours into making and maintaining their mods.

$100... just... no.  That would be insulting even for a mod that's nothing more than a stack of MM patches.

16 hours ago, Director Kerman said:

FINAL PRODOUCT  (PLAYERS) : Players wont have to install mods cause its a pain to get all the right folders and go through all the trouble just to have their game crash.

Couldn't disagree with this more.  Manually installing mods could not be easier.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Geonovast

[Rocket In My Pocket]

The ONLY mod I would even remotely considering supporting in regards to this change is; KER.

Even then, I'd have my reservations. Modding is fine the way it is, in fact it's great!

I'd also wager there are quite a few modders who wouldn't want to give up control of their mod even to see it in the stock game.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Rocket In My Pocket

[Mark Kerbin]

17 minutes ago, Geonovast said:

$10,000 would be an insult to some of the mod makers around here.  I can think of several members around here who likely have thousands of hours into making and maintaining their mods.

$100... just... no.  That would be insulting even for a mod that's nothing more than a stack of MM patches.

Couldn't disagree with this more.  Manually installing mods could not be easier.

Agreed. 

And no no it could be easier. See all it would cost is a small loan of a million dollars.

 

@Rocket In My Pocket Well yeah same. Dv would be nice stock. But it would have to be stock, no dlc and they would have to pay or negotiate for it if the plan was to use something similar. If anything it’s good, great even, as is. Plus squad has effectively outsourced it for free. 

Oh and @4x4cheesecake with that kind of skill using wording like that... you are lawyer material at least from my perspective.

 

Edited May 22, 2018 by Mark Kerbin

[4x4cheesecake]

11 minutes ago, Mark Kerbin said:

And no no it could be easier. See all it would cost is a small loan of a million dollars.

A million? I would travel around the world to manually install mods for someone else if he/she takes the travel costs + a small loan of maybe...1000$ ?

edit:

11 minutes ago, Mark Kerbin said:

with that kind of skill using wording like that... you are lawyer material at least from my perspective.

Actually it is even worse..I'm german and fiddling with words is just our nature

Edited May 22, 2018 by 4x4cheesecake

[Mark Kerbin]

2 minutes ago, 4x4cheesecake said:

A million? I would travel around the world to manually install mods for someone else if he/she takes the travel costs + a small loan of maybe...1000$ ?

 

Plane tickets tho. Plus some language classes, and probably a class on how not to punch windows defender into the next millenia after it decides it hates dll files again.

[Director Kerman]

20 hours ago, SpannerMonkey(smce) said:

no really it's not April again is it .  SO for the mod developers not inconsiderable time,  you're willing to allow $100, what per item , or per mod?   Several mods available for this game contain many more parts than ever supplied by Squad (god bless their cotton socks)  a few i can think of would comprise a half decent games content, never mind a few more parts. As for the time invested,, for a decent mature mod think years, not weeks. 

Lets be honest here, brutally so, the mods in this game are generally, if the modder knows the score, less buggy and better maintained than the game they run in, however they are all restricted by what unity and the KSP API allows them to do, having the mods brought in game will not change that.

If you seriously think  that by bringing mods into the game it will somehow make it better,  you are mistaken,  the games already laboring under a very tired code base, many of the mods have plugins of one sort attached, some of which do things that Squad never considered, and all of that would have to be added to the base game, and guess what , you think 1.4.ughh is messy ,  it barely comes close to what would happen.  We wont even go into the many different art styles present, oh yes some of them look stockalike, but hold them up to stock, and guess what looks the best ( and don't even try to state otherwise) , not the stock parts , not by a long way, so more styles, more parts that don't look like they belong   so more chaos. 
 

So to bringing mods into the game, It's a big fat NO.

In general most mod users would be better off , reading the mods thread , checking any issues, and the proper install procedure, instead of banging on the 'I want it now' button of the mod manager of their choice.

BTW KSP player since 2012 so i've seen it all in a gazillion hours of heavily modded playtime.
 

This has been done to death 1000 times, it's even in the things they wont do list.  So a swift locking is in order.

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/129403-check-here-first-common-suggestions/

the reason I said $100 or so is because I took in to account of how Take2 manages GTA5: want players to not mod money, so they can buy shark cards.and I said mony because I don't think a modder would just give the mod to Take2.

[Mark Kerbin]

14 hours ago, Director Kerman said:

the reason I said $100 or so is because I took in to account of how Take2 manages GTA5: want players to not mod money, so they can buy shark cards.and I said mony because I don't think a modder would just give the mod to Take2.

Congratulations. You just (likely) incurred the wrath of one of this communities more experienced modders, and everyone else who likes having nice things. [snip]

the comparatively coherent rambling of a guy who likes nice things. Who also should have been asleep yesterday...and thus decided that he will be taking this to whole new levels of petty. 

”[T]he reason I said $100 or so is because I took in to [into] account of how Take2 manages GTA5:...” 

[snip]

Also, what the kraken does T2’s management of GTA have to do with KSP modding? It’s just a corporation that bought two entirely different dev teams. Where does $100 come from in relation to their management of another game?

I have a feeling we may be about to find out...

 

”...GTA5: want players to not mod money so they can buy shark cards.”

[snip]

”...GTA5: [T2] want[ed] players to not mod [hack] money [into the game,] so they [players] can buy shark cards [use a pay to win system].”

Never mind that answer on the $100 price tag I guess. Unless we haven’t gotten there yet. 

Did you just... you did. You pretty much just compared community made mods for a single player game to banned hacks that ruined the fun of an online multiplayer game. Then proceeded to suggest that community mods should be replaced with a pay per mod system. This is why we can’t have nice things. Someone always decides that the universe revolves around them and “wouldn’t it just be easier if...”  

This is a single player game that has a great modding community because the devs were nice enough to make it easy to install and use mods for free. The installation is so simple, it literally requires downloading and dragging the contents of a zip folder or just clicking and scrolling if you happen to have done the downloading and dragging to install ckan.

You just suggested that mods are the sort of hacks that negatively effect the play of those who don’t want them. Yeah sure some mods are a little hacky, but players  might want that and it doesn’t hurt anyone. Making them stock or dlc certainly would. Do you really just want to hand money over to a faceless corporation in exchange for a currently free service just because it’s ever so slightly simpler for you? 

“..shark cards.and I said mony because I don't think a modder would just give the mod to Take2.”

[snip]

Find out how $100 relates to this next week on Kerbal Drama Station! Sundays 11pm-12am. 

[snip]

Yeah no  a mod dev isn’t just going to hand their hard work over to T2. Especially not for basically nothing. Actually a mod dev probably lost money just paying electrical costs. Yes, some do pateron donations or what have you right now, but that’s totally voluntary and thus free for players who can’t or don’t want to pay. Plus at the end of the day, that dev still owns all their hard work. Oh and they get to sleep at night knowing that a company isn't profiting off essentially stealing their hard work and intellectual property.

Point is, this entire argument has, as spannermonkey pointed out, already happened with similar results. There is just no justification for paying the mod devs bunk in order to package their stuff into DLC for profit. I would like to remind you that those devs keep this game and community alive through all the work they do.

  it, lets talk briefly about what happened last time when T2 attempted to do a similar thing to GTA’s mods. A war nearly broke out after they attempted to kill them for even less legitimate reasons. I mean really, and KSP doesn’t even officially have multiplayer.

Ok, I am done. Its after midnight. This argument devolved into an absolute (expletives). I’ll be heading back to the high ground now. It’s gonna take a bit after going this low. 

G’night from American’s east coast everyone. Now seriously bye. You wasted enough time reading through all this.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Snark
Redacted by moderator

[Gargamel]

[snip]

Assuming the OP is of the younger crowd, $100 is a lot of money to most of them, heck it can be a lot of money to me.  But I base my money on the amount of time it takes to earn that amount, be it my hourly wage job, or doing custom woodworking projects for clients.   At that age I remember earning money per task completed (ie mowing the lawn, or shoveling the sidewalk), regardless of how long it took.  Heck I could make a lawn mowing last 2-3 days.    Perspective is everything.  Trying to help others shift their paradigms to see new viewpoints (in life or KSP rocket design) should be our goal.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Snark
Redacted by moderator

[Galileo]

$100?

 

 

HAHAHAHA!

[Snark]

Some content has been removed from this thread.

Folks, play nice, please.  You all know the rules already, of course (right?), but perhaps a quick reminder is in order:

• Do not make personal attacks or insults.  Ever.  It's not nice, and it's against the rules (2.2.d).  If the way someone writes bothers you to the point that you're finding it difficult to be civil, then go take a walk until you've calmed down, or whatever it takes for you to be able to be appropriately respectful to your fellow forum-goers.  Or just don't read 'em in the first place.
• Do not call people out for making personal attacks (or other rule-breaking behavior).  You're not a moderator, and it's not your place to tell anyone else what to do or what not to do.  This is called "backseat moderating" and is against the rules (3.2).  If someone is behaving in a way that you believe is so egregious that it's actually against the rules, please simply report the post, so that the moderators can have a look and adjust anything that may need adjusting.

A final note:  It is never appropriate to criticize anyone's grammar or spelling.  There are plenty of youngsters here, who may not have grown into their adult literacy yet.  There are also plenty of people for whom English is not their first language.  Picking a person apart because of how they write is hardly the sort of friendly, welcoming attitude that this community usually demonstrates.

Furthermore, it's not your place to judge or criticize.  Just because someone's writing style doesn't meet your personal standards, doesn't make their viewpoint any less valid than yours or anyone else's.  Condescending to them or insulting them accomplishes nothing, other than perhaps signaling people that you're resorting to ad hominem attacks because you're having trouble supporting your point with civil debate.  Putting other people down doesn't build you up.  Quite the opposite.

Lively debate is fine.  By all means, critique the content of a person's post-- but it's never appropriate to criticize their grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc.

• "I don't like that idea because <reasons>"  ... fine.
• "You talk funny" ... nope.

If it bugs you so much that you can't stand it... well then, perhaps just don't read it, hmm?

Okay, sermon over.  I trust we can all comport ourselves like civil adults?

Thank you for your understanding.

[General Apocalypse]

I agree with this idea . The devs integrating mods is quite awesome as they will provide update support , something the modding community hates to do.

If ubiquitous mods such Mech Jeb , Kerbal Engineer , Tranfer Planner and ScanSat would be integrated into the game everyone would win. The mods don't even have to be fully integrated.

For example if from they took from MechJeb the Ascent Guidance , Randez-Vous Planner and Docking Auto pilot they would essentially allow us the option to remove 99% of the stuff that gets tedious when you're doing it for the 100th time in a row.

I strongly believe I am not alone in being so annoyed be LKO fuel supply flights that I reengineered the launcher to get there faster at the cost of extra dV lost to Max Q. After 100+ repetitions that type of flight becomes mostly a chore. A very enjoyable chore with Mech Jeb doing obeying your programing. All that thing needs now is the Space X commentator to go "Vehicle is supersoni" "Vehicle is now at Max Q" and so on.