KSP2 map view in separate window

[Redneck]

I hope the KSP2 devs allows pc players to undock the map view and have it on a separate monitor or even have a web-based map view in a web browser.   

[AlamoVampire]

I dont see this adding anything to the game beyond more room for technical debt. Its just more complexity and more code to maintain. Not only that, for users like me who dont use multiple monitors youd be forcing bloated code on us. How much idk. My opinion ofc.

 

223107102020

[Brofessional]

Back when I played War Thunder it had a feature that let you open up the main map in a browser window. It was slightly buggy at times but it was incredibly useful.

I've always wanted that sort of functionality for KSP. Not just for the map view but also for telemetry readouts.

[magnemoe]

Had been nice however the build in mini map in probes and resource scanners solves the most of this I think if only it had not closed if you switched to an kerbal on eva collecting science or similar. 

[Gargamel]

I think this would be really cool.  One view for IVA, one for the map.  I can see a small subset of users really using this a lot.  I can foresee homebrew cockpit simulators using this. 

[shdwlrd]

It would be very useful to have. But if you don't have a second monitor, or another decently sized device to cast it to, it would be useless for you.

[pandaman]

The facility to use multiple monitors would be a handy thing to include, especially as multi monitor set ups are becoming increasingly common.  But single monitor use should always be assumed to be 'the norm', and from what little I've seen that appears to be the case.

[Bej Kerman]

3 hours ago, Gargamel said:

I can see a small subset of users

Let's not ramp up tech debt for a small subset of users.

[klesh]

As a AAA title (as least in pricetag), I expect cool features like this working right out of the box.

[AlamoVampire]

5 hours ago, klesh said:

As a AAA title (as least in pricetag), I expect cool features like this working right out of the box.

I would hope they do NOT have this feature. As Gargamel said a SMALL SUBSET of players will make use of this. That means to appease such a small number of players they would force:

1. Bloat code that the majority of users will never use.

2. Increased technical debt which is never ever a good or welcome thing. 
 

Those two things are not worth it. Not by a long shot. While this is my opinion I can see some users that agree with my opinion. I truly hope they do not do this.

 

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[linuxgurugamer]

5 hours ago, klesh said:

As a AAA title (as least in pricetag), I expect cool features like this working right out of the box.

I wouldn't.  How many games support multiple game windows, independent of each other?  I am not aware of any, which doesn't mean that they aren't there. This is a significant effort for very few users of it

[TLTay]

Maybe some kind of way for outside apps to interact with the game? It would be nice to be able to keep my screen clear of telemetry and mechjeb to enjoy the improved visuals. Being able to input/output from the game might help advanced modding and powerusers alike. (I don't know for sure, as I don't code).  I like the idea, but I wouldn't delay the game over it. Maybe it could be patched in later or put in a DLC?

[Draco T stand-up guy]

19 hours ago, Brofessional said:

Back when I played War Thunder it had a feature that let you open up the main map in a browser window. It was slightly buggy at times but it was incredibly useful.

I've always wanted that sort of functionality for KSP. Not just for the map view but also for telemetry readouts.

I've been wanting that sort of functionality on many games and other software ever since second monitors became a thing. Its so frustrating that so many developers don't use the full capability of multiple monitors.

6 hours ago, shdwlrd said:

It would be very useful to have. But if you don't have a second monitor, or another decently sized device to cast it to, it would be useless for you.

If you didn't have a second monitor then you simply wouldn't notice.

26 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

As Gargamel said a SMALL SUBSET of players will make use of this.

Is it a small subset? Do you have the research backing this up?

26 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

Bloat code that the majority of users will never use.

Not really. As the code for the window is going to be there anyway it then becomes an issue of being able to move that window out of the main window almost all of which is handled by the OS (Really, there's a reason why its called 'Windows'). Which means that there is little to no 'increased technical debt'.

[Entropian]

22 hours ago, Redneck said:

I hope the KSP2 devs allows pc players to undock the map view and have it on a separate monitor or even have a web-based map view in a web browser.   

This would be amazing.  I spend far too much time switching between the map and vessel views during maneuver execution.  If you don't have 2 monitors, the window could be put in front of the main window, and still be used.  If you don't want that, it could just be a toggleable setting.

[AlamoVampire]

@Draco T stand-up guy 1. Gargamel has made the claim as well. 2. Bej Kerman as well agrees. 3. It is not a widely touted feature indicating its a subset of users want it. 4. Given the fact a majority will make 0 use of it by definition makes it bloat code. Windowing a game is one thing, adding a second window running continuous updated game data is a new beast. That extra code if unused is bloat and the perfect roost for technical debt. Not worth it.

 

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[Gargamel]

3 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

As Gargamel said a SMALL SUBSET 

Small subset refers to any value <50% if you'd like to get technical.   Not everyone has multiple monitors, but those who do, really enjoy utilizing them all.   Using the rationale that a feature would cause technology bloat implies we should not have any advanced graphics features, simplified physics, etc, as the game should cater specifically to the lowest common denominator. 

The game has many features that some players never touch, like career mode, and those same features some players can't live without.   Let's not limit an idea just because a small subset of players don't like it.   If it's not practical to implement, then so be it.   If it is, so be it. 

[AlamoVampire]

10 minutes ago, Gargamel said:

Small subset refers to any value <50% if you'd like to get technical.   Not everyone has multiple monitors, but those who do, really enjoy utilizing them all.   Using the rationale that a feature would cause technology bloat implies we should not have any advanced graphics features, simplified physics, etc, as the game should cater specifically to the lowest common denominator. 

The game has many features that some players never touch, like career mode, and those same features some players can't live without.   Let's not limit an idea just because a small subset of players don't like it.   If it's not practical to implement, then so be it.   If it is, so be it. 

fair enough, but, id like to toss this out here for all to see. its a poll conducted by PC Gamer, and while it has less than 500 respondents it still is rather telling. Over 50% of respondents do not use multiple monitors, and again, when it asks those who said no if a better and faster graphics card would encourage it, they again over 50% responded no. I would say that in my opinion it would not be practical. I for one have room on my desk <its a desk I have had since around 7th grade, and I am class 2001 if that tells you just how old this desk is> for a single monitor. Even if I had a more open space financially for me, it is not practical. Yes, my computer is more than capable of it, I just have no need. I would imagine that others are of a similar mind in terms of viability or practicality. Just my opinion of course. 

 

223607112020

[Draco T stand-up guy]

2 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

4. Given the fact a majority will make 0 use of it by definition makes it bloat code.

Ah, no:

Quote

Causes of perceived code bloat might be use of object-oriented programming techniques where procedural techniques would do, inappropriate use of design patterns, declarative programming and loop unrolling. Solutions to code bloat can include refactoring and eliminating redundant calculations.

 

2 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

3. It is not a widely touted feature indicating its a subset of users want it.

This is a serious failure of logic on your part. Just because the developers haven't touted it doesn't mean that only a subset of users want it. It only indicates that the developers haven't mentioned - yet.

KSP is one game where using multiple monitors would make a better game. Just look at a modern glass cockpit which uses multiple monitors:

  

50 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

Yes, my computer is more than capable of it, I just have no need.

I said the same thing - until I started using multiple monitors.

Edited July 12, 2020 by Draco T stand-up guy

[AlamoVampire]

@Draco T stand-up guy 

 

1. Unneeded or unused code or programs is bloat. there really is no denying it or sidestepping it. 

2. No. It is not a logic failure. I do not see games touting multiple monitor support as a buy me feature. I rarely if ever EVER see it. I am following the development of FS2020 very very closely and not even it as far as I have seen mentions it. 

3. Dude. My computer is built with a very very specific game in mind. It was built to EXCEED by a significant margin the technical requirements to handle it. A game called Digital Combat Simulator World. This machine exceeds its VR recommended specs by a good ways. I am not trying to brag, just re-enforce the point that my machine is more than capable of a 2 monitor setup.

 

with that said, I will conclude my point:

Less than 50% of users in that poll I linked above use multimonitor, and less than 50% even with a better graphics card will not use it. I assert and will maintain that it is very likely to be a very unnecessary feature that will not benefit a good portion of players. I would rather as an end user see that development time put towards making sure game critical aspects like orbital mechanics, atmospherics, supply chains and so on. Again this is my opinion and frankly I feel like I am starting to repeat myself. 

I wish you well Draco.

 

000507122020

[Bill Phil]

I think this would be useful.

KSP has historically had similar things - 3d mice are probably used by even fewer people, and yet the game supports it. 

There are far more problems with KSP's optimization than whatever bloat peripheral interaction would add. KSP 2 should be better optimized out of the gate than KSP, so if it adds to the experience of some people then it would probably be worth adding. Would be real nice to not have to constantly switch between different windows, that's for sure.

I wonder how well a mini-map would work? Probably not well, but if it was expandable? Hmm. 

[Brofessional]

For most games multi-monitor support amounts to just having super a super wide FOV with the extra monitors being peripheral vision. Nice but not really all that useful. Games that deal with a lot of info and interface elements like KSP can make great use of it though. In War Thunder for example the browser map is just the same 2D map you see when you press Esc, but having it up at all times is incredibly useful for situational awareness.

Like I said earlier in the thread I would be very happy just to get the info in a browser page that can be slid over to another monitor. I imagine that is a lot less work since it's all on the networking side, the game engine itself is only rendering a single window like usual.  It also means that you can open the browser page on your laptop, phone, or tablet if you don't have a second monitor.

If they wanted to go all out they could even make an official companion app like Fallout 4 did with it's Pip-boy app.

Edited July 12, 2020 by Brofessional

[The Aziz]

Any sort of browser windows/external app would require the game to have constant Internet connection, and boi how people here are afraid of that. Don't tell me about multiplayer, there are people who shut off the Internet and play singleplayer exclusively, just in case the game wanted to send a byte of data to steam servers.

So there's that.

There's also another thing about that map mode, bloat code etc. Do we know how it's implemented in the first game? We don't know if it's maybe active in the background and hitting M just switches the camera to where the map scene is placed in unity world, do we? Well if that's somehow the case (or something similar) there would be no unused code in the second game, we'd just have the ability to make that other camera turned on in the second screen. One switch in settings "allow multiple monitor support" and boom, you can have both, so the game loads needed libraries or whatever.

[Gargamel]

29 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

Any sort of browser windows/external app would require the game to have constant Internet connection

Not so, I've used a few, one I even helped design myself, that had browser support for various windows, but were 100% offline, or at least a local, non net-connected, server.   The goal was to not reinvent the wheel building a GUI, but to use what was already established and drop it into an existing framework.  I don't know the details of it, but I was told by the dev working on the backend that having an app cast data to an outside browser was "trivial". 

[Draco T stand-up guy]

2 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

1. Unneeded or unused code or programs is bloat. there really is no denying it or sidestepping it.

But it wouldn't be unused.

2 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

2. No. It is not a logic failure. I do not see games touting multiple monitor support as a buy me feature.

Yes, it is and I do see games touting multiple monitor support as a buy me feature.

2 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

3. Dude. My computer is built with a very very specific game in mind.

No one cares. My point was that once you've used multiple monitors its difficult to go back to a single monitor. Even if I went to an ultra-wide monitor I'd still have multiple monitors.

2 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

I assert and will maintain that it is very likely to be a very unnecessary feature that will not benefit a good portion of players.

So, those who do want it should just suck it up?

IMO, I think that gaming and software development would benefit greatly with proper use of multiple monitors rather than just putting it in the 'too hard basket' that you want to do simply because it doesn't benefit you.

[Bej Kerman]

6 hours ago, Draco T stand-up guy said:

KSP is one game where using multiple monitors would make a better game.

The game is perfectly fine with one monitor, it doesn't need pointless bells and whistles to appease the double-monitor master-race.

3 hours ago, Draco T stand-up guy said:

So, those who do want it should just suck it up?

How many people on the reddit and forum do you see wishing for support for extra monitors? Most images from people showing off their setup and people who have no clue when it comes to taking screenshots show one monitor. Besides...

https://www.pcgamer.com/uk/poll-do-you-use-more-than-one-monitor/

Quote

According to the disappeared post, 14.68% of desktop users have more than one screen connected to the their PCs, as do 4.36% of laptop owners.

Does 85% of users (not counting consoles) need to suffer a performance hit so 2 people don't have to push the M key? In fact, KSP 2 might not even have a map mode in a separate screen - you might just have to scroll out.