[1.9.1-1.10.1] Kiwi Tech Tree Overhaul 1.3.0 (17 December 2020)

[Clamp-o-Tron]

5 minutes ago, Veiron said:

Good call~ Apparently, the Community Tech Tree was in there... I don't remember installing that though~

 

ANyway, I uninstalled it and now it got worse~ Hahahah~

I should’ve mentioned that this depends on CTT, so I would keep it in. Could you post a picture of your GameData so I can try to troubleshoot?

Edited December 11, 2020 by Clamp-o-Tron
"WYSIWYG" Yeah right.

[Veiron]

Sure thing~ And, thank you for helping me out on this one~

https://ibb.co/q7dNVLN

 

[hemeac]

@Veiron, thanks for sharing your gamedata folder.  You have KSPIE which also adds  new tech nodes and moves nodes from the Community Tech Tree around.  KSPIE is a pretty big mod that changes a lot of aspects of the game.  I have a feeling that it could be complicated to get my tech tree to play nicely with it so t is not a priority for me at the moment. 

 

[hemeac]

@evileye.x, Thanks for the recommendation!  SAF was not really on my radar.  I will quickly test with your patch this weekend and get it out in the next release which should be out tomorrow.   None of your photos appear to have posted, but I definitely have flagged early aviation for a rethink.  I'm still debating amongst myself about what roughly the starting era of the tree  should be and if it should be pre or post-jets.  Leaving people with only Breaking Ground propellers may be too cruel for those like me who find them tedious.  With the OpenCockpit, AirplanesPlus and the now released Blue Steel mod, I think that those will allow a really nice progression with aircraft that will complement the space aspect of the tree.  I'll also bump up SXT earlier in my list of supported mods, agree that having at least one decent clamp or pad can make the aesthetics a bit nicer as well as having an early probe that can fit the scale better.  I may also look at making a couple of small parts myself for the early tree.

@Superfluous J, appreciate the feedback and glad you are enjoying it!

Edited December 11, 2020 by hemeac

[evileye.x]

1 hour ago, hemeac said:

None of your photos appear to have posted

Thanks for letting me know... I need to host it somewhere instead of google photo, I guess...

[Clamp-o-Tron]

16 minutes ago, evileye.x said:

Thanks for letting me know... I need to host it somewhere instead of google photo, I guess...

Google photos has worked for me in the past when I was testing various ways of hosting images. Just make sure that your sharing permissions are set to "public" before you copy the link to the forums.

[evileye.x]

10 hours ago, Clamp-o-Tron said:

Google photos has worked for me in the past when I was testing various ways of hosting images. Just make sure that your sharing permissions are set to "public" before you copy the link to the forums.

Looks like it have to have access by link enabled for each pic. 

Fixed, should be displayed properly in the post

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/197734-191-1101-kiwi-tech-tree-overhaul-120-28-november-2020/&do=findComment&comment=3892364

 

Edited December 12, 2020 by evileye.x

[Daniel Prates]

Hi @hemeac for some reason CKAN does not let me install this mod, is there a reason for that? I check the box and the 'apply changes' button remains greyed out. I tried, just to fiddle with it, to uncheck a few things while checking 'kiwi' for installing, and it said it couldnt because of an incompatibility with tweak scale. Weird.

Anyway, installed manually. MM loading informs errors with airplane plus and configurable containers, but as far as I can see, the parts appear in the tech tree, so perhaps I can just ignore that?

Since we are here:  how about hide empty tech tree node? Is it compatible?

Edited December 12, 2020 by Daniel Prates

[hemeac]

@Daniel Prates, I don't use CKAN so not sure on all the details, but I would guess it could be that you have installed at least one  of the mods that I set as conflicts: TweakScale, RealisticPowerDraw, a couple of extras from the Near Future suite and KSP Interstellar.  I am guessing there may be a way to override that, but you would need to ask on the CKAN forum.

KSP Interstellar is fairly incompatible as both change the tree layout and you can see what happens a couple posts above you.  If you have any of the others and would like to try my tech tree, it should work if you disable the upgrades (but I haven't tested this).  To do that you would need to add this patch to .cfg file within your GameData folder:

@KIWI_GENERAL_SETTINGS:FIRST
{
	@UPGRADES
	{
		@BATTERY = off 			// Options: on/off Turning off will disable the battery density upgrades in KTT
		@ENGINE = off 			// Options: on/off Turning off will disable the engine upgrades in KTT
		@COMMAND = off 			// Options: on/off Turning off will disable the command pod structural upgrades in KTT
		@FUELTANK = off 			// Options: on/off Turning off will disable the fuel tank upgrades in KTT.  This includes the composite material upgrade for SRBs.
		@KERBALENGINEER = off	// Options: on/off Turning on will add Kerbal Engineer modules to all probes.
		@PARACHUTE = off	 		// Options: on/off Turning off will disable the parachute upgrades in KTT. 
		@RCS = off				// Options: on/off Turning off will disable the RCS upgrades in KTT. This is only relevant if Rational Resources is installed, otherwise it is disabled.
		@SAS = off				// Options: on/off Turning off will disable the Probe SAS upgrades in KTT.  Note that this result in the default SAS level for all probes and they may be out of order in the tech tree.  I will not balance accordingly.
		@SOLAR = off		 		// Options: on/off Turning off will disable the solar panel upgrade system upgrades in KTT. Only relevant if Near Future Solar is installed, otherwise it is disabled.
		@SPACECAPABLE = off 		// Options: on/off Turning off will disable the space capabile upgrade system upgrades in KTT.
		@STRUCTURAL = off 		// Options: on/off Turning off will disable the structural parts upgrade system upgrades in KTT.
		@SYSTEM = off 			// Options: on/off Turning off will disable the spaceplane system upgrades in KTT.
	}
}

 

[Daniel Prates]

@hemeac I did some fiddling myself and insofar I am only getting 3 module loading errors from airplane plus. I can live with that.

 

[hemeac]

@Daniel Prates, if you want to post your KSP.log, I can take a look to see if that is something I can patch.

[hemeac]

@evileye.x, forgot to add yesterday, if you have capacity in your game for AirplanesPlus and Mk.1 Open Cockpit, you can get some decent looking parts to make propeller planes in the start tier.  This is what I use for my first flights:

 

[vardicd]

36 minutes ago, hemeac said:

@evileye.x, forgot to add yesterday, if you have capacity in your game for AirplanesPlus and Mk.1 Open Cockpit, you can get some decent looking parts to make propeller planes in the start tier.  This is what I use for my first flights:

 

Literally just tried to rotate the camera around that plane to get a better look at it. 

[hemeac]

Spoiler

Configs for Blue Steel, Tantares and TantaresSP are on Github along with a few other changes, but decided that I wanted to move a few structural changes forward before moving onto BDB so I don't have to repeat some work later.  As I have been adding mod support, it is starting to feel there is scope for a bit of refresh to help spread out some parts in mod-heavy installs:

• Add a tier between the current start and tier 1 nodes.  This would help mods like CRE and Blue Steel and BDB which have lower ISP engines have a natural spot in the tech tree and are not instantly superseded by better technology in basicRocketry.
• Split up the early aircraft nodes into commercial and non-commercial branches. This will help differentiate planes which are mach capable and those that one wants to use to ferry passengers with mods like Giving Aircraft a Purpose (and the recent variants that have popped up)
• An optional Hypergolic Engine Branch if users install a hypergolic fuel mod (two are currently in development).  It is not really possible to simulate the toxicity of the fuel, so the way that I'll be attempting to balance these is to make the unlock cost of the node lower and possibly the unlock costs of the parts, but the actual cost of the engines are higher than the alternatives.  The higher costs will indirectly reflect the "social" costs of using these fuels.
• Splitting science parts into "probe" science and "ground" science. Also split out probes from science and  antenna a bit earlier to space out part unlocks in that area of the tech tree.  Will repurpose miniaturization through electronics for the ground based science unlocks.
• Add some higher nodes to the  flexible fuel systems branch to provide a space for larger balloon-style fuel tanks.

I have also been doing a bit of work behind the scenes on Science.  I am making it a bit easier for myself to support the various difficulty levels for science.  That will also be in the next update.  In the case for Kerbalism, I have started to create some experiments that are specific to Kiwi Tech Tree.  Certain mods have overlapping experiments and I am trying to avoid situations where each mod has the same set of experiments.  Thus Coatl Aerospace, Interkosmos, TantaresSP, and BDB will be configured to use KTT specific experiments.  This will be a Kerblism exclusive feature as it requires manually configuring patches and I have the energy to do that once, so am choosing the route that I will be using myself.

Timing-wise, hoping that the tree revamp will be done over the next week or two  and then start retroactively adding support to the mods that I have already added.  Development is going to be slow as I am trying to take advantage of Melbourne being Covid-free.  That is a luxury that I don't want to miss.

All of this is very likely going to break saves, but this should be the last time that I am going to be introducing save-breaking features into the tree.

Edited December 16, 2020 by hemeac

[Superfluous J]

Don't worry I won't turn your thread into a spamfest promoting my videos, but I wanted to let you know I started a career with your tech tree on YouTube. If you'd like to watch your efforts in action in a hard mode career here's the link.

Spoiler

 

 

[MoeKitsune]

I saw that some things on the Github roadmap were labeled with "help wanted", I'm guessing that means you're open to people helping you out with the mod? I've been thinking of getting into modding and I wanted to help out with getting some part mods compatible.

[vardicd]

3 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

Don't worry I won't turn your thread into a spamfest promoting my videos, but I wanted to let you know I started a career with your tech tree on YouTube. If you'd like to watch your efforts in action in a hard mode career here's the link.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

okay, that's another kerbal series added to my watch list.

[hemeac]

Kiwi Tech Tree 1.3.0 (Github)

Warning! Next Major Release will be 2.0.0 and will likely break saves, this one should be save game safe

• Added Support for Blue Steel, Tantares, and TantaresSP (TantaresLV will come after the next major release)
• Converted EVA propellant to MonoPropellant for KIS and US2 EVA packs when Kerbalism is installed (thanks Kerbalism discord user Snoman for suggestion)
• Moved Knes Calypso fuel tank to Large Volume Containment
• Lowered ISP of several stock engines slightly
• Lowered RCS ISP of Hachimach Control Unit in Knes (thanks Clamp-O-Tron)
• Moved air launch availability for KCT earlier in the Tech Tree and added descriptions about capabilities in tech tree descriptions (thanks Clamp-O-Tron for original pull request and discussion in KCT for recommendation in adding description)
• Clarified names of structural and fuel tank upgrades in part descriptions and indicated branch for Probe SAS Upgrades (recommended by forum user Majk)
• Moved Spad Engine to start for AirplanePlus
• Moved several Kerbalism experiments from LTech, Interkosmos, and Coatl Aerospace to a general framework that will be also compatible with TantaresSP and BDB (the latter when I add support)
• Added toggle to disable stock and making history engines from converting to LH2 if CryoEngines is installed (Suggestion from flart)
• Adjusted science points in hard mode for DMagic Orbital Science (thanks flart)
• Adjusted science points and more parts should have their xmitDataScalar properly supported. Note: You may see some slight changes to available science.

  

@Superfluous J, photos and videos are always welcome!  I will try and keep up with the series!

@TheJewelOfJool, help is always appreciated.  I now use functions in Excel to generate the patches.  You can see an example of that here: https://github.com/hemeac/kiwiTechTree/blob/master/Source/Completed/TantaresSP.xlsx?raw=true

At the moment, it may make sense to wait for the 2.0 update as the template will need to be updated to reflect the changes I am making for the tree and I think it would be really helpful for me to record a video that demos how it works as I suspect it makes more sense to me at the moment.  I'll tag you when I think it is close enough, but no pressure if it turns out to be more boring than you think :-)

[MoeKitsune]

Thanks for the reply, I'll be sure to keep an eye out.

[Clamp-o-Tron]

1.3 looks good!

Currently I’m working on Stockalike Hypergols, and tomorrow I will begin implementing reaction wheel upgrades like batteries get. 
I’ve also got some handling multipliers mostly done and dusted. Those will increase costs for certain parts by settings-defined values, reflecting the extra caution that would need to be exercised with radioactive parts and crew-rated parts. A system to do the same, but using the technology a part uses, is very similar to this and won’t take long. The hardest part is correctly applying tags to parts. Maybe I’ll use Kiwi’s TechBranch internal method for that.

Speaking of TechBranch, I’ve got a rough proposal for the v2.0 revamp:

Spoiler

ACTUATORS // IR and BG robotics as well as some other actuating parts

AIRINTAKES // Self-explanatory

AERODYNAMICS // Structural wings, control surfaces

ANTENNA // Self-explanatory

AVIONICS // Guidance for rockets and unmanned craft, like the stock mk2 drone core and remote guidance units

BATTERIES // Self-explanatory

BEAMEDPOWER // Not many parts would fall into this category, but it's unique enough from everything else to warrant its own spot

COCKPITS // Anything meant for atmospheric flight only

CONTROL // RCS, SAS units, and reaction wheels

COMMANDMODULES // Reentry-rated

COMMANDMODULESVACUUM // Not rated for reentry

CLOSEDCYCLEROCKETENGINES // Fancy engines with lots of piping and no gas generator exhaust, most complicated and high-tech

DECOUPLINGDOCKING // Self-explanatory

ELECTROMAGNETICENGINES // Ion and magnetoplasmadynamic thrusters

FUELTANKS // Any fuel storage that doesn't fit in SPECIALTYFUELSTORAGE

GASGENERATORROCKETENGINES // Engines with little secondary exhausts from the fuel preburners [if you don't know what that is Scott Manley can probably tell you :)], second most complicated and high-tech

ISRU // Drills, convert-o-trons

JETENGINESSUBSONIC // Turbofans mostly

JETENGINESSUPERSONIC // Turbojets, ramjets, scramjets, SABRES oh my!

LANDINGGEAR // Landing gear and legs

LIFESUPPORT // ECLSS units and life support resource containers

NUCLEARPOWER // reactors

NUCLEARENGINES // NERVAs

ORBITALSCIENCE // Survey scanners, SCANsat, space-only experiments

OTHER // Ladders, lights, whatever else doesn't really have a home.

OTHERELECTRICAL // fuel cells mostly

OTHERSCIENCE // Any science not in ORBITALSCIENCE

PRESSUREFEDROCKETENGINES // Rocket engines with barely any external piping. Lowest-tech and simplest of the three types of engines differentiated by KTT

PROBECORES // Anything you wouldn’t want to steer a rocket with

ROTORS // Propellors of all kinds

ROVERWHEELS // Self-explanatory

SOLARPLANELS // Self-explanatory

SOLIDROCKETMOTORS // SL and vacuum optimizec

SPECIALTYENGINES // Weird forms of propulsion like fusion and antimatter

SPECIALTYFUELSTORAGE // Storage for fuels like Xenon, Argon, Lithium, Deuterium, and He3

STATIONPARTS // Orbital stations

STATIONCOLONY // Surface stations

STORAGERESOURCES // Storage of resources that aren't fuels

STRUCTURALINLINE // Structural parts that can make a seamless fuselage

STRUCTURALOTHER // Structural parts that don't make a good fuselage

SURVIVABILITY // LES, floats, airbags, parachutes -- anything that will keep a crew alive and comfortable during launch and landing

THERMALHEATSHIELDS // Self-explanatory

THERMALRADIATORS // Self-explanatory

It may seem a bit bloated, but its nodes will overlap and the end result won’t be much bigger.

Notable changes:

Engines are split into their cycle rather than their propellants, since getting the fuel flowing is more important than the propellants used (see: LR-87 LH2, RS-18)

Some areas are consolidated (command modules and landers)

Some tech is split out into its own branch sooner (solar panels from general electrical)

Just a proposal tho

 

After I get SH running okay, I’ll turn to getting that old sample drill to work in Kerbalism as well as stock, and possibly contracts.

[hemeac]

@Clamp-o-Tron, thanks for the suggestions on the revamp, other than the engines think we had been largely in agreement.  I'll have a look over the weekend to see what kind of coverage I would get by splitting the stock and ReStock+ engines across engine types rather than fuel types.  If I feel I can get good coverage, then will just need to get over my inertia of having already made the cryo/hypergolic branches.  Glad to see Hypergol humming along and seeing that in action.

Edited December 17, 2020 by hemeac

[hemeac]

The basic structure of the updated tech tree is complete outside the decision to revamp the engine line suggested by @Clamp-o-Tron.   Sanity was maintained through a large dose of Katy Perry and Lady Gaga metal covers on YouTube.

Spoiler

Think I will spread out the tree a bit more vertically to split a few branches into easier to distinguish branches.  However, everything can now be updated quite quickly by  moving the cells around in the Excel sheet that I posted a few days back.  Have set up Excel to equate the positions to coordinates in KSP and then can generate all the required patches.  I think this is also something that I can use to try and get KSP Interstellar to align with my tree relatively quickly, but that will need some review.

Spoiler

 

 

[hemeac]

This should be near the final draft of the 2.0 Tech Tree.  Think 1.11 is going to be base version that I will be balancing for as I do like some of the new small RCS parts and really happy about the new inventory system they have implemented.

I had gone through an iteration of revamping the engines by type (pressure-fed, staged combustion, etc.) and decided that it is going to edge the tree a bit too close to the "realism" side and taking the development time of tree to be longer than I think will plausibly keep my interest.  Erring on the side of abstracting choices by fuel type as that gives me some liberty on placing engines based a bit on thrust/ISP and not solely on when they were historically plausible.  This is also driven by the fact that different mod authors have different ideas of part balancing and trying to lean away from large re-balancing of stats as that is a large time sink. However, more than happy if someone (ie. @Clamp-o-Tron) wants to develop a sub mod for the engines that overrides the nodes and layout of my choices.

I will try and make the engine choices a bit smarter by moving away from the default bulkhead size of the part and look more at the per-nozzle stats of the engines.

I also have a couple of ideas to help fill in some early tech engines by bundling some new, but not an extensive list of parts.  Some of you may have seen that I had done some preliminary work on an aerobee mod before discovering that a competing project existed.  I think there is scope to repurpose a few parts into general parts that fit into the stockalike style.

The part list is likely to stick to a few engines, perhaps an adapter or two, nosecone style probe and an engine plate.

[hemeac]

I have found over the years that anything that I've marked as final is generally subject to change....  I've gone through and had a rethink about the engines and this is my current thinking:

Two primary branches for engines: Pressure-Fed (ie. Propulsion Systems) and Pump-Fed (Rocketry).  Within the primary node of each branch you will have engines that unlock within that tier.  They will have their stats slightly nerfed as they are "prototypes".  There will be two sub-nodes for fuel types: Liquid  Fuel (Kerolox and Hypergolic/MonoProp) and Cryogenic (Hydrolox and Methalox).  Each of these subnodes will cost less to unlock than the primary node.  Within those subnodes, you will be able to upgrade to the full version of the engine generally based on the original config from Squad/Mod Author.  Upgraded variants will be still be available a couple of tiers later within the appropriate fuel-type subnode.  I think this will make the unlock system conceptually easier for engines  which have multiple fuel-types.  

If anyone has feedback about the "prototype" concept, let me know.

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by hemeac

[antilochus]

Hey, this tree is a blast in career with JNSQ! Feels like I'm playing for the first time again (without going deep down the RSS rabbit hole again). Opened this issue on github - was the 85s sea level ISP intentional for the swivel?

Edited December 22, 2020 by antilochus