Avoiding Doomerism

[Pthigrivi]

How do you do it yall? The world is ROUGH right now. I mean this in the most omnipresent meaning possible. Im old enough now to remember good times and bad, and when I talk to my Boomer colleagues they're all of the mind "Yeah, the 60's were bad, this is... probably just as bad." I feel like it's so easy to become despondant and immobilized, or at the least feel so pressured by stress and the day-to-day wth of life to restrict the sphere of your concerns to yourself and your family and have no time for your community, country, or world. Who could fix such things? But if we don't work together somehow this whole ship sinks. Everyone thinks they know who the villains are, but none of us actually knows, so we've all got fingers pointing in every direction and no sense of "If I don't fix this no one will." Is anyone else utterly exhausted of hopelessness? I can't be the only one who feels like this is cultural rock-bottom and everything is coming apart at the seams. How do we gather those threads back together in way that actually makes life better of everyone?

Im looking for some positivity.  Just some good-hearted "Damn thats the way" type stuff. 

Edited December 17, 2022 by Pthigrivi

[kerbiloid]

Every 7 hours the radiation level decreases 10 times.
This inspires.

[Ryaja]

I made this topic a couple of days ago, I want to post a link to the web site for it but can't because it is religiously affiliated and might start a fight but here is the post I made: https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/211063-light-the-world/

Edited December 18, 2022 by Ryaja

[SunlitZelkova]

22 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

How do you do it yall? The world is ROUGH right now. I mean this in the most omnipresent meaning possible. Im old enough now to remember good times and bad, and when I talk to my Boomer colleagues they're all of the mind "Yeah, the 60's were bad, this is... probably just as bad." I feel like it's so easy to become despondant and immobilized, or at the least feel so pressured by stress and the day-to-day wth of life to restrict the sphere of your concerns to yourself and your family and have no time for your community, country, or world. Who could fix such things? But if we don't work together somehow this whole ship sinks. Everyone thinks they know who the villains are, but none of us actually knows, so we've all got fingers pointing in every direction and no sense of "If I don't fix this no one will." Is anyone else utterly exhausted of hopelessness? I can't be the only one who feels like this is cultural rock-bottom and everything is coming apart at the seams. How do we gather those threads back together in way that actually makes life better of everyone?

Im looking for some positivity.  Just some good-hearted "Damn thats the way" type stuff. 

The spittle and vocalizations of Homo sapiens individuals- whether they come from journalists or officials- have zero effect on the physical world.

The world has “felt like it is coming apart” before. In fact, I have heard that exact phrase used to describe both the period between 1947-1950 and the events of 1968 before. Yet looking back, there is a recognition there was quite a bit of drama going around, and things were not nearly as bad as they appeared at the time.

Contrary to the image conveyed by the media and officials, I don’t think this world is driven by the decisions of a few people in power, and I don’t think we are “doomed” or that the “end is nigh”. An official can shout and make whatever decisions he wants, but it won’t change the goodness in people’s hearts, nor their basic morals*. And Pompeii might explode and Hiroshima might be obliterated, but people will not give up on living. Even if a group is split, those new divisions will support themselves and continue living- separation is not the end.

Humans are animals, but animals recognize basic norms and taboos necessary for survival. Even after seeing the most trashy of news feeds and headlines, I don’t see a burning planet. I don’t see savages ripping each other apart, fighting for the title of king of the hill, I see mishaps in what is otherwise a perfectly fine organism. Are there tribulations? Yes, but that’s how Earth works. An apex predator such as a shark can be completely dominant in his environment but will still face problems, some that to a human might seem life threatening or gargantuan, yet the shark overcomes it simply as a matter of course.

Because I have heard “recognization of a lack of control” mentioned in the “emotional support” genre as being necessary to calm down, I will also say this. History reveals that on a grand scale, most events were preordained to a large extent*. A group of small men did not cause World War II, the attitude of all of humanity did. Of course, the present will soon be part of history too. Therefore as much as blame is thrown around and solutions are proposed with great imperative and spittle, it is likely all of what is happening is already determined and can not be changed.

But history also shows humanity is resilient. Rome or the Qing might fall, but the peoples of those places are still here. As I said, individuals alone are not responsible for change. Just as it has its “problem children”, humanity has its “golden boys” doing the work that needs to be done to make sure everyone is safe and sound. You alone will not have a great impact on the course of history, and therefore do not need to be concerned to the extent that it burdens your emotional state**.

*This does not come out of the traditional study of history. It is only when asking “what if?” that I have seen realization that things could not have changed.

**I mean this in a factual way, not a belittlement or something. Also, if you happen to be the leader of some grand social movement, and are anonymously engaging in discussion in this here spaceflight game forum, such is not the case and you are doomed to stress and the emotional short stick.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

My kids taught me a new phrase... 

"Touch Grass" 

It apparently means that the recipient of the suggestion has been online way too much lately and is losing touch with reality / things that are really important.  IOW - log off, go outside and 'touch some grass'. 

It's really good advice! 

 

 

[razark]

Without getting into specifics that might lead things into political discussions (any conversation about what groups of people should do is, by definition, politics), try to find local groups that you can work with to solve what you see as the issues that need to be dealt with.  Spreading effort out amongst a group is going to be a lot easier than trying to do anything yourself, and we are a social species after all.  Struggling by yourself against what seems like overwhelming odds is only going to lead to frustration.

Start small, local, and slow to build up a community, and don't worry about trying to change everything all at once.  Find allies that will work with you not necessarily to reach your goals, but a goal that everyone can accept.

[Nazalassa]

5 hours ago, razark said:

Start small, local, and slow to build up a community

Should we start here, and now?

[SunlitZelkova]

6 hours ago, Nazalassa said:

Should we start here, and now?

Such issues are effectively political and thus off topic, so no.

[Zozaf Kerman]

3 hours ago, Laikanaut said:

Recently I gave away a large amount of savings to people fleeing the conflict in Europe, and made basic social connections with them. This helped them materially and me mentally. If you are feeling despondent and have too much money, giving it away is actually very uplifting. I never enjoy buying things any more, but I gained a lot of positive feeling from this.

Mr. Beast moment 

[Pthigrivi]

16 hours ago, razark said:

Start small, local, and slow to build up a community, and don't worry about trying to change everything all at once.  Find allies that will work with you not necessarily to reach your goals, but a goal that everyone can accept.

Agreed. I am active in my town and while even that's a real grind its good work and needs to be done. I also have a certain power at work over envelope, energy, and material specifications and I do my best to make ecologically sound decisions and advocate for the importance of sustainable systems and products with my clients. I'm just deep in my feelings about it yall. Woof! 

[Nuke]

accepting entropy is possibly the most constructive thing you can do. doom, of various kinds, is inevitable. you can postpone it but you can never escape it completely. i don't see it being constructive to deny this law of nature. that said we have a very long way to go before we see the heat death of the universe, or even the death of humanity, and we still do not know the limits of possibility.  way i see it so long as you arent breathing in fire and committing acts of cannibalism, you are fine. 

people have this annoying habit of building the future with one hand and destroying it with the other. or assuming that just because things are fine for them, that things are fine. optimism tends to give people a huge blind spot. the same can be said for pessimism. neither is well equipped to handle the complexity of the real world. only by seeing it for what it is can you hope to make any real change in it. otherwise you get caught up in the current zeitgeist, change the popular things, only for the current problems to be replaced with others or for the problems to become worse. with the inability to see a failed system for what it is, especially one you participated in, you will just keep repeating the same mistakes over and over again. changes often have unintended side effects, people who make those changes seldom understand that, make light of them, deny they are an issue at all, and they can turn into real problems very fast. 

35 minutes ago, Laikanaut said:

Suggesting the holocaust wasn't so bad without even appearing to break the "no politics" rule. A clever trick, you're more sophisticated than Ye and the rest of those who would love to see that history repeat itself.

these things tend to happen in cycles. that's why history repeats itself. over many generations, humans try to adjust for their mistakes, overshoot, have the opposite problem, tries to overcorrect and you are right back to where you were. this repeats ad nauseum. i like the analogy of a pilot induced oscillation where the very act of trying to level out an out of control plane only makes problem worse over time. this is usually a problem of a poorly calibrated control loop in the flight control system where there are delays and multipliers that are not intuitive to understand in the short term. on generational time scales, these can be a lot bigger. 

23 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

My kids taught me a new phrase... 

"Touch Grass" 

It apparently means that the recipient of the suggestion has been online way too much lately and is losing touch with reality / things that are really important.  IOW - log off, go outside and 'touch some grass'. 

It's really good advice! 

 

 

the grass is currently under four inches of snow, im not touching that. though i do sometimes go fishing for no damn reason.  sometimes i catch something i can eat later. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Nuke

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

16 minutes ago, Nuke said:

the grass is currently under four inches of snow, im not touching that. though i do sometimes go fishing for no damn reason.  sometimes i catch something i can eat later. 

I always annoy my wife by walking barefoot in the snow to get the mail.

It's good for you.

[Nuke]

Just now, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

I always annoy my wife by walking barefoot in the snow to get the mail.

It's good for you.

ive done that before. the steel grating on the stairs makes it excruciatingly painful, but ive done it. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Nuke

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

18 minutes ago, Nuke said:

steel grating on the stairs

Yeah.  Been there done that, too.

Not recommended.

[Pthigrivi]

On the lightest note the subtext here absolutely is climate change, and Im gonna be real I don’t do heat. There’s no time when its over 65F and I wish it was warmer. 80 and Im out. I don’t know what too cold is. -30 is exhilarating. I could work in 40 and raining in a windbreaker all day. Thats perfect. Maybe -50 is cold? Ive never felt that but it sounds wonderful. I grew up and live in Vermont and Im sorry but I think its too far south for me and in 20 years so will be Newfoundland. Im a polar bear living on the last little scrag of ice. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Pthigrivi

[Nuke]

its not just heat, humidity playes a bigger role in personal comfort than most people give credit. i could do 110 all day in phoenix and i dont need it to be 50 degrees colder inside. in anchorage, where winter tends  to be dry, i could do -10 in shorts. but in southeast alaska, at 100% humidity, temps above 70 or below 40 are utterly miserable.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

9 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

On the lightest note the subtext here absolutely is climate change

Keep reading.  There is a point with CC that you get to as a lay reader where you think 'well that's it.  Everyone is an idiot and we are totally ____d' 

Keep reading - but read the science articles.  Read the conversations between climatologists when they criticize this thing or that thing about their presumptions and models.  Read about the new discoveries that aren't even considered in the models.  Read about the climate successes and the ecosystem recovery and return of diversity and those areas where active people are taking responsibility and making changes that are effective. 

Before long you start to see the shape of things again and realize that doomerism is premature, the earth is resilient (and so are humans), sea rise isn't going to be fast (or even alter the coastlines so that you would not recognize the continent on a map) and the model prediction you get is likely the worst possible scenario. 

You see there is time and we are doing things that improve our lot, protect our coasts and reduce our risks.  Those changes are slow, not dramatic... But they are having an effect. 

 

Touch Grass! 

Edited December 19, 2022 by JoeSchmuckatelli

[Vanamonde]

Some comments removed. Please stick to the subject and avoid accusing each other of misdeeds. 

[kerbiloid]

14 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Keep reading - but read the science articles.  Read the conversations between climatologists when they criticize this thing or that thing about their presumptions and models.  Read about the new discoveries that aren't even considered in the models.  Read about the climate successes and the ecosystem recovery and return of diversity and those areas where active people are taking responsibility and making changes that are effective. 

Before long you start to see the shape of things again and realize that doomerism is premature, the earth is resilient (and so are humans), sea rise isn't going to be fast (or even alter the coastlines so that you would not recognize the continent on a map) and the model prediction you get is likely the worst possible scenario. 

"Don't read the things causing too much emotions. Remember, when your soul is flying up to the skies, possibly somebody is trying to possess your body on land," (c)

Remember that your fear is what feeds the mass-media, "if it bleeds, it leads" / "a corpse makes a (photo/video)frame alive".

[Pthigrivi]

I mean, I don't watch the news. I see it when I'm at my parents house and its unwatchably dumb on any network. I do read a great deal though from a broad range of sources. When I say things are bad I mean on a long-term prospects for the species level-yes, climate change, also ecology generally, economics, and a general loss of empathy and community. I also mean this in a very long-term sense. Im in the building industry and its my job to design buildings and spaces that could in principle last hundreds of years. Thats the kind of timescale Im considering most of the time when doing flashing details, planning foundations and sitework, picking materials and systems that perform great now and can be swapped out and upgraded over time.  The better I plan, the longer buildings can resist entropy and stay classic and within code the less likely they are to be torn down and replaced and gobble up a whole new pile of energy and resources. I designed houses in the Bahamas to resist Cat 5 hurricanes--wind loads, storm surges, all based around 50 and 100 year storms that now hit every 10-15 years. Hurricane Dorian sat over them for 3 days with winds up to 185mph--tied for the worst storm in Caribbean history. 1/3 of all the houses on the island were flat on the ground and most of the rest had major roof damage and needed to be gutted. Thankfully the houses I'd designed didn't take water, but one was within 3 feet of my worst-case scenario storm surge. I live in Vermont, listed one of the least vulnerable places to climate change, and even we can see things changing. No one used to need AC. In the 80s and 90s you used to have to put a fan on a couple of nights each summer. Now we have months at a time when it's over 75F at night. The winters are milder which means more ticks and agricultural pests, the moose are gone, many bird species are gone, we're losing tree species do to blight and lakes are choked with algae. Im not one of these folks who thinks a wall of water is going swallow up all our cities in 10 years. Im talking about the profound, ecological damage that will set in over the next 100 years. These things are changing slowly over the term of a person's life, but it's the blink of an eye ecologically. And of course at the same time we're dealing with economic issues like energy, housing, education, health and end of life care. Those are hard to talk about here while avoiding politics but I think no matter where you're coming from we can all agree the situation is not ideal. 

But, this thread is about avoiding doomerism, not wallowing in it. I don't think problems get solved by imagining they don't exist or they'll go away on their own or they're easy-peasy to solve. Most easy problems get solved pretty quickly. It's the hard ones we're still living with. It's that Tolkien fighting the long defeat energy I have trouble drumming up sometimes. I admire folks who just pick up a shovel and start making things happen. 
 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Pthigrivi

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

2 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

don't think problems get solved by imagining they don't exist

So - the purpose of my responses has been to try to get you to analyze your perceptions for confirmation bias. 

There is a real risk for people to learn a little bit of something and then get caught up in an echo chamber of things that confirm the thing you first learned.  I suggest that you may be caught up in a negative loop where things look bad, perhaps even hopeless on a variety of levels - and across subjects. 

This is a decision on your part to only accept the bad news. 

 

... 

Hopefully that last part annoyed you. 

Vis CC - we have a very long and well argued thread right here on these forums - with me saying 'yeah its not as bad as it sounds' and others pointing out that I might be wrong.  Read through it.  (Hint:  The timeline is slow, we are not all going to drown and while if the worst (likely thing - not extreme thing) comes to pass - some will lose and some will gain.  But life is pernicious and people are strong and we will get through this.)

Economy is cyclic.  People who have fought wars against one another can become friends later on (c.f. England / USA).  Etc. 

... 

Not suggesting you become a Pollyanna... But attitude is a choice.  You need to discipline yourself to look for silver linings and resilience. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by JoeSchmuckatelli

[Pthigrivi]

28 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Hopefully that last part annoyed you. 

Not at all! I appreciate the optimism. Optimism is not pretending a problem doesn't exist. I am not an optimist on this front, but yes, thats me. I've seen folks talk about climate change and plastic and sprawl and mass transit and green energy all my life and very, very little has been done. The Clean Air act was pretty cool. Appliances and light bulbs are more efficient than they used to be. But still energy consumption has stayed basically level since the early 80's. Sadly a lot of the reason for that is we've simultaneously been exporting heavy industry to Asia. Renewables have only gone from 5% to 10% of generation over that period. I certainly don't see the world finally all rolling their sleeves up now. Sorry I haven't gone and read the whole thread (I am interested though). I completely agree things might recover if we stopped what we are doing, I just don't think we will? EV's and electrifying industry would help but both would require decarbonizing the grid. Someone mentioned using waste heat from nuclear and I think thats a great idea if it could be organized. The best things would be mass transit and much more sustainable building practices. One of the worst things we're up against is just good old planned obsolescence--everything is disposable, nothing is designed to last or be maintained or really even properly recycled. Any chance you've read Cradle to Cradle? I mean damn that book came out 20 years ago, but its just too lucrative to make people buy the same garbage over and over. 

[SunlitZelkova]

3 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

But, this thread is about avoiding doomerism, not wallowing in it. I don't think problems get solved by imagining they don't exist or they'll go away on their own or they're easy-peasy to solve. Most easy problems get solved pretty quickly. It's the hard ones we're still living with. It's that Tolkien fighting the long defeat energy I have trouble drumming up sometimes. I admire folks who just pick up a shovel and start making things happen. 
 

I’d say what you need is acceptance then. Yes these things are here, and that’s ok. You still do your best, of course.

Otherwise I can’t see any sort of special answer existing beyond “keep on keeping on”. The only two close historical examples to what might be required I can think of are-

1. Response to famine/pestilence type calamities. Millions died, but people kept on going and praying, and thus some lived.

2. Idealized Soviet determination. Famine? War? Political upheaval? No problem, they kept working towards that utopia that would never come*.

There’s no special trick to what they did there to overcome their problems beyond keeping doing what they were doing (trying hard, that is) and not falling into despair (at least on the level of doing the work they needed to do).

As @JoeSchmuckatelli says, a positive attitude is all there is to it. I don’t say that to sound audacious or to look down on your problem. I would like to try to find a more detailed explanation for you, but I** can not, unfortunately.

*Valid till about ‘65. With caveats

**Perhaps someone else could?

Note- I’m grasping at the philosophical straws here so I’m welcome to criticisms of my comments he he.

Edited December 20, 2022 by SunlitZelkova

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

4 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

Perhaps someone else could?

Nope.  This is all @Pthigrivi.  He's the hero of his own story, after all.

Every one of us - at least those of us past a certain age - have all had to wrestle with these kind of thoughts periodically through our lives.  We all have moments where everything seems like (ahem) a 'brownstorm sandwich'.  As you go through these moments of life, you gain tools to help later on down the line... but the truth is - when you're in the fog... you're in the fog.

It's why I suggested he analyze his own perceptions of things.  Question the things he knows; who knows, he may find some cracks in walls he thought looked solid at first glance.

@Pthigrivi - good luck with this!  It's a hard and lonely road.  Some days, as @SunlitZelkova said the best you can do is put one foot in front of the other.

Keep on Keeping On!

[Pthigrivi]

This thread is developing big Children of Men Ark of the Arts vibes. I appreciate you all trying to make me feel better, but I don’t think how I feel is actually what matters. What matters is what we all do. How does how we feel transfer into concerted effort. Ive watched generation after generation fall into complacency and probably mine and the next will follow more or less. Some will do more and some will do less as their attitude and life circumstances allow.

Im not looking for “just don’t worry about it.” Perhaps we should all indeed be much more worried about it. Its kind of like when Covid hit and they started reporting death tolls. The media had amassed such a reputation for hyperbole no one believed them. They certainly couldn’t imagine the truth, that many people were dying in their homes and the actual excess deaths were higher even  than what the TV was telling them. The rates have come way down in the last year which is wonderful, but its kind of mind boggling that over a million people died and we all just kind of go about our day. Now that everyone seems to be feeling some relief its not the zeitgeisty thing to say but damn, maybe if we’d worked together and taken things more seriously like Australia and New Zealand did a lot of lives might have been saved? Maybe we should be taking some lesson here that isn’t about money?
 

So Im not actually looking to worry less about what is happening. I suppose what I was looking for were examples of real solutions, emerging signs and methods for breaking through some of the morass to actually effect change. Ive listed a few, just curious what all you smart folks have seen. 

Edited December 21, 2022 by Pthigrivi