KSP2 at GDC23

[AtomicTech]

2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Which we already have

Clarification: Exciting version of KSP 2 that runs well on the minimum specs and includes both new parts and easy modding.

[Bej Kerman]

4 minutes ago, AtomicTech said:

Clarification: Exciting version of KSP 2 that runs well on the minimum specs and includes both new parts and easy modding.

I think it's a bit much to expect a game to run well on the minimum specs, and KSP 2 does have some parts I could have done with before - the latter is very much subjective 

[K^2]

2 hours ago, Alexoff said:

It's amazing that the developers of KSP2 took the time to participate in the GDS23 just a couple of weeks after the successful release of the working version of KSP2! They probably didn't have more important things to do in the office, like fixing bugs or creating features from the roadmap.

"How dare the developers do anything other than what I decided is the top priority for them!" - Wait 'till you find out that some of them took a vacation after shipping early access, because they were stressed after trying to get the game into as good of a shape as they could. The scandal! I am always amazed by the entitlement in the gaming communities. If anyone ever wonders why most developers don't spend time talking with the fans, this is basically the reason. Even if you find it amusing, it gets old after a while.

For the record, conferences are the most important thing we do in the industry as an industry. Certainly trumping a couple of days of work on bugs and features for a few of the major conferences throughout the year. That is one part of game development that continues to work more like academia than an industry, and where the ideas, successes, and failures are shared freely. It's the greatest source of learning for the team. And having access to a right talk can save a studio months of R&D. Every developer is happy to give back to that pool of shared knowledge, because without it, we wouldn't be able to create games that we do.

[Rosten]

30 minutes ago, K^2 said:

"How dare the developers do anything other than what I decided is the top priority for them!" - Wait 'till you find out that some of them took a vacation after shipping early access, because they were stressed after trying to get the game into as good of a shape as they could. The scandal!

Taking a vacation while in dire straits might be a trait associated with games that have low review scores.

 

39 minutes ago, K^2 said:

I am always amazed by the entitlement in the gaming communities. If anyone ever wonders why most developers don't spend time talking with the fans, this is basically the reason. Even if you find it amusing, it gets old after a while.

Maybe it's better some developers don't talk to the fans...

[Bej Kerman]

1 minute ago, Rosten said:

Taking a vacation while in dire straits might be a trait associated with games that have low review scores.

Now the developers aren't allowed to take vacations for as long as the fans are unhappy!

[K^2]

14 minutes ago, Rosten said:

Taking a vacation while in dire straits might be a trait associated with games that have low review scores.

It's a trait associated with studios that don't drive their employees into 80 hour weeks and end up on the wrong end of a class action law suite. Letting employees take a break when they need it, regardless of the schedule, is a trait of studios like Supergiant Games. And if you think Hades review scores suffered from it, you need to re-evaluate what you know about game development.

Studios that did keep the developers working after a lackluster release? Bioware after shipping Anthem. Crystal after shipping Avengers. Do I need to go on? Or are you seeing a pattern emerge?

[Majorjim!]

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

I think it's a bit much to expect a game to run well on the minimum specs, and KSP 2 does have some parts I could have done with before - the latter is very much subjective 

The recommended specs are a joke. It stinks of poor programming. 

[Rosten]

2 minutes ago, K^2 said:

And if you think Hades review scores suffered from it, you need to re-evaluate what you know about game development.

Hades wasn't a game that was struggling at launch, how is it relevant?

[AtomicTech]

2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

is very much subjective

That I can agree on

I think I'm going to keep chugging away on KSP waiting for KSP 2 to get interesting for me so I'm going to be keeping my eye out on what goes on the the realm of KSP 2 development.

Edited April 27, 2023 by AtomicTech

[Alexoff]

1 hour ago, K^2 said:

"How dare the developers do anything other than what I decided is the top priority for them!"

"How dare these buyers of our only product criticize us in any way?" No one would have any objections if they first made the game, and then went to brag about their work.

1 hour ago, K^2 said:

because they were stressed after trying to get the game into as good of a shape as they could.

Maybe they're not too many could

1 hour ago, K^2 said:

The scandal!

No no no! The scandal is that the state of the game is critically at odds with what the developers have been telling us for several years. A scandal is when the developers not only do not apologize for outright lies, not only do not promise to make every effort, but also write on the forum that they will only read the topic where they are looking for something good in their game. Or when developers do anything but restore their reputation.

28 minutes ago, K^2 said:

Letting employees take a break when they need it, regardless of the schedule, is a trait of studios like Supergiant Games. And if you think Hades review scores suffered from it, you need to re-evaluate what you know about game development.

Do leading game developers really keep players informed about their vacations? What is the purpose of this? Unless the developer will play his wonderful creation, then this information is either meaningless or just adds fuel to the fire. The most popular question from players to the developers of KSP2 - what did you do for three years? And the developers tell us - the same as now, went to conferences, rested on the beach. Deal with it!

[Bej Kerman]

18 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

"How dare these buyers of our only product criticize us in any way?" No one would have any objections if they first made the game, and then went to brag about their work.

Maybe they're not too many could

No no no! The scandal is that the state of the game is critically at odds with what the developers have been telling us for several years. A scandal is when the developers not only do not apologize for outright lies, not only do not promise to make every effort, but also write on the forum that they will only read the topic where they are looking for something good in their game. Or when developers do anything but restore their reputation.

Do leading game developers really keep players informed about their vacations? What is the purpose of this? Unless the developer will play his wonderful creation, then this information is either meaningless or just adds fuel to the fire. The most popular question from players to the developers of KSP2 - what did you do for three years? And the developers tell us - the same as now, went to conferences, rested on the beach. Deal with it!

As the great SPH ATC once said:

[K^2]

2 hours ago, Alexoff said:

The most popular question from players to the developers of KSP2 - what did you do for three years? And the developers tell us - the same as now, went to conferences, rested on the beach. Deal with it!

And? Suppose for a moment they were twiddling their thumbs for three years. What's it to you? Are you an investor in TakeTwo? If you are, you should take it up with them at the next investor meeting. If not, how they developed the game shouldn't be any concern of yours. You aren't an uninformed customer. You were right here complaining before the early access was even announced. If you purchased the early access, why? If not, what's your complaint, exactly?

Nobody owes you a game. The devs can decide how they spend their time. If the publisher is unhappy with how the dev budget is being spent, that's a discussion between the developer and the publisher. If you're not happy with the game, don't buy the game. Sitting here saying the devs shouldn't go to a conference because they should be working on a game you want (do you even want it?) is the kind of an absurd tantrum that I expect from a kindergartener when they don't get a toy they want.

[PDCWolf]

12 hours ago, K^2 said:

And? Suppose for a moment they were twiddling their thumbs for three years. What's it to you? Are you an investor in TakeTwo? If you are, you should take it up with them at the next investor meeting. If not, how they developed the game shouldn't be any concern of yours. You aren't an uninformed customer. You were right here complaining before the early access was even announced. If you purchased the early access, why? If not, what's your complaint, exactly?

Nobody owes you a game. The devs can decide how they spend their time. If the publisher is unhappy with how the dev budget is being spent, that's a discussion between the developer and the publisher. If you're not happy with the game, don't buy the game. Sitting here saying the devs shouldn't go to a conference because they should be working on a game you want (do you even want it?) is the kind of an absurd tantrum that I expect from a kindergartener when they don't get a toy they want.

You do understand they're trying to sell a product and keep people in EA to finance its development, right? Early Access thankfully disposes of this dumb little attitude of "you're a final consumer, consume or move on". If everyone told this same drivel of "don't like it, don't buy it" actually did that, there'd be no KSP2 judging by the reviews, specially the pre-2 hour ones which currently sit at 36% positive.

He's now in a paid tester position, and probably without the chance to refund, and I'm sure a lot of people might be in that same boat. Whilst he can't demand stuff, he can certainly bring accountability to light, specially on the one place to discuss the product. And just to play the same card in reverse: What's his post to you? Are you a forum moderator? If you are, moderate the discussion if appropriate. If not, what he complaints about shouldn't be a concern to you. You aren't an uninformed poster. You were right here after reading the title and his post, if you still commented after that, why?

You display a senseless, overly aggressive attitude for matters that seemingly don't concern you, specially since you were the first to quote him and his post and complaint weren't directed at you.

[regex]

3 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

he can certainly bring accountability to light

hahahahaha

Yeah, you guys stick it to them, make them accountable. lol

God the discourse around here is so dumb this time around...

[Kerbart]

16 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Now the developers aren't allowed to take vacations for as long as the fans are unhappy!

Rumor has it they want to get paid and have the audacity to want to sleep. Not just once in a while, but every. day. they. want. "night rest." No wonder the game took 3 years to get where it is, treating those developers like entitled kings and queens!

If Nike can make $5 sneakers in sweat shops then why can't Take Two set up a similar production pipeline?

[Kerbart]

16 hours ago, Alexoff said:

Do leading game developers really keep players informed about their vacations? What is the purpose of this? Unless the developer will play his wonderful creation, then this information is either meaningless or just adds fuel to the fire.

Do we really need to discuss this. Update gets released with communication not from Nate, what do you expect will happen on this forum, where evere tidbit of information (or lack of it) get dissected more thoroughly than the line-up on the Kremlin wall of October revolution parades? "RaDiO SiLeNcE FrOm NaTe! He Is FiReD!"

16 hours ago, Alexoff said:

The most popular question from players to the developers of KSP2 - what did you do for three years? And the developers tell us - the same as now, went to conferences, rested on the beach. Deal with it!

Yes, running your developer team into the ground, not allowing them to improve their skills and creating an environment that everyone associates with burnout is definitely the way to go. Will Harley Davidson send you an itemized list of what went wrong when an ordered motorcycle is delivered a week later at the dealer than promised?

Surely development didn't go to plan, I don't understand why so many seem to think that the devs are happy about that. But expecting that they're going to hang out the dirty laundry? That they're going to say before release “hey, the product is going to look like [explicitive] and not at all like what we want it,” who does that?

It's just not realistic to expect, yes even demand that. Is there a reason to be disappointed in the game? Absolutely. But to be outraged over overhyped marketing and demand that everyone is now gong to work 24/7 for the next 6 months (not that it would help, btw) to alleviate naive expectations regarding "the picture on the box" suggests a disconnect from "the real world."

[PDCWolf]

2 hours ago, regex said:

hahahahaha

Yeah, you guys stick it to them, make them accountable. lol

God the discourse around here is so dumb this time around...

Let me remind you of what community weighted accountability does.

https://happygamer.com/starforge-has-been-removed-from-steam-codehatch-continues-to-struggle-with-titles-55810/

https://powerupgaming.co.uk/2014/09/23/double-fine-and-the-early-access/

https://weplay.tv/news/community-rages-over-fallout-76-misleading-collectors-edition-contents-11707

Unless your bible is the Amazon Warehouse Workers' Handbook, you'd know that bringing points to light is always justified. In fact, it's how I managed to refund my game with 6 hours played and 30 days after purchase.

Edited April 28, 2023 by PDCWolf

[GGG-GoodGuyGreg]

2 hours ago, Kerbart said:

19 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Now the developers aren't allowed to take vacations for as long as the fans are unhappy!

The point is everyone needs a break but it would be wiser to not talk about logging off for a well deserved break after a launch that went less then ideal, to say the least. 

[regex]

32 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Let me remind you of what community weighted accountability does.

hahahahaha

sigh...

Stay righteous about devs taking vacations and going to conventions I guess. Crunch culture vultures gonna demand their "money's worth" no matter the cost.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

There is a whole lot of *internet* going on here 

[Alexoff]

16 hours ago, K^2 said:

And? Suppose for a moment they were twiddling their thumbs for three years. What's it to you? Are you an investor in TakeTwo? If you are, you should take it up with them at the next investor meeting. If not, how they developed the game shouldn't be any concern of yours. You aren't an uninformed customer. You were right here complaining before the early access was even announced. If you purchased the early access, why? If not, what's your complaint, exactly?

Nobody owes you a game. The devs can decide how they spend their time. If the publisher is unhappy with how the dev budget is being spent, that's a discussion between the developer and the publisher. If you're not happy with the game, don't buy the game. Sitting here saying the devs shouldn't go to a conference because they should be working on a game you want (do you even want it?) is the kind of an absurd tantrum that I expect from a kindergartener when they don't get a toy they want.

This is the main problem of the modern gaming industry - complete disrespect for customers. If you don't like something, get out! Either lay out the money, or do not loom here! And really, who are the players to report to them? They should eat what they give! The main thing is what T2 bosses and investors think. I wrote this a hundred times on the forum, just unlike you, I don't think it's normal.

[Alexoff]

3 hours ago, Kerbart said:

Do we really need to discuss this.

Why not? Maybe this will help Nate start weighing his rare words?

3 hours ago, Kerbart said:

es, running your developer team into the ground, not allowing them to improve their skills and creating an environment that everyone associates with burnout is definitely the way to go. Will Harley Davidson send you an itemized list of what went wrong when an ordered motorcycle is delivered a week later at the dealer than promised?

Why take it to the point of absurdity? It is enough to start a dialogue with the community in the usual way. Now communication with the community is like a mockery, but some have gotten used to it to the point of approval.

3 hours ago, Kerbart said:

But expecting that they're going to hang out the dirty laundry?

Does anyone require it? Everyone would absolutely not care if words and strange deeds that were completely inadequate to reality did not come from the developer's studio.

3 hours ago, Kerbart said:

Absolutely. But to be outraged over overhyped marketing and demand that everyone is now gong to work 24/7 for the next 6 months (not that it would help, btw) to alleviate naive expectations regarding "the picture on the box" suggests a disconnect from "the real world."

Does anyone work 24/7? Can someone complain to Jason Schraer? In fact, this is a continuation of the conversation "who are these players to reckon with them ?!"

[K^2]

4 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

Whilst he can't demand stuff, he can certainly bring accountability to light, specially on the one place to discuss the product.

Here's the chain of accountability. Developers are accountable to studio leads. They are accountable to the publisher. The publishing side is accountable to the corporate leadership of the company that provided the funds to make the game. The corporate leadership is accountable to the investors. If you are an investor, you're in that chain, and you can bring it up at the shareholder meeting. Otherwise, you're not part of that chain. You're not holding anyone accountable.

The feedback about the quality game is always welcome. If you can provide constructive criticism of what can be improved about the product, that's even better. How the studio makes the game, and whether the developers get to go to conferences is absolutely none of the customer business. The product is the game, not how the developers work. If you want to be paying money for people to be doing exactly what you tell them, the product you're looking for isn't a video game, and you shouldn't be demanding it from game developers.

4 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

You display a senseless, overly aggressive attitude for matters that seemingly don't concern you, specially since you were the first to quote him and his post and complaint weren't directed at you.

It is absolutely sensible, as I am a game developer, and I have to deal with this kind of crap attitude all the time. The comment was talking about Intercpet developers specifically, but directed at the industry. So yeah, it was directed at me as well, and the following quote shows precisely that it was so.

10 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

This is the main problem of the modern gaming industry - complete disrespect for customers.

It's not the job of game dvelopers to respect customers. Or interact with them in any way. Or provide them with anything. The developers are responsible for making a game for the publisher to publish. And it's up to the publisher to decide if the developers have done it to their satisfaction or not. If you want customer care, I direct you to the customer support line at Private Division. They are actually paid to show you respect. Otherwise, you are being entitled again, and demanding things that aren't part of the product.

4 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

He's now in a paid tester position, and probably without the chance to refund

As I've pointed out earlier, Alexoff was here on the forum complaining about the progress being made on the game from before early access was even announced. If he purchased early access and got exactly what he said he was going to get, that's entirely on him. Out of all the people who might complain about purchasing early access, that would be one example that's 100% crocodile tears.

[cocoscacao]

24 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

This is the main problem of the modern gaming industry - complete disrespect for customers. If you don't like something, get out!

I'm getting strong deja vu vibes, but I'll bite again.

This is true for every industry. No one forced you to buy anything.  What is stopping you to... not buy something you don't like? 

[Dantheollie]

Ah, the KSP Forums Post-KSP2 launch:

You make a discussion on a topic not related to the KSP2 launch and expect it to get maybe 2-4 replies...

A month later it starts getting a lot of discussion...

You check the discussion and it is all about the KSP2 Launch

 

This is definitely, among the many forums of the internet, a forum that exists. Individuals post, answer, and reply. This must be the most forum of them all