You promised us communication, where is it?

[Alexoff]

4 hours ago, Periple said:

The devs are under no obligation at all to talk to us. If they do so, it’s a courtesy, and we are under the obligation to treat it as such.

If we don’t, you shouldn’t be surprised if they choose not to.

What do we owe to the developers? Should we be polite, courteous and patient with them?

Edited September 16, 2023 by Gargamel
Quote removed

[Bej Kerman]

18 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

Should we be polite, courteous and patient with them?

Yes.

[Periple]

24 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

What do we owe to the developers? Should we be polite, courteous and patient with them?

Yes!

[Alexoff]

7 hours ago, Periple said:

Yes!

It’s strange - they don’t owe us anything, but we paid them money and still owe it. When did we owe them money? Everyone to whom I owe money has promissory notes from me or is listed in my personal documents as my close relatives, it seems to me that the developers are not included in any of these groups.

{SNIP}

Edited September 17, 2023 by Gargamel
Quote removed

[Periple]

39 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

It’s strange - they don’t owe us anything, but we paid them money and still owe it.

Nobody said anything about owing them money! You’re being silly again!

[Alexoff]

6 hours ago, Periple said:

Nobody said anything about owing them money! You’re being silly again!

Then where did the debt to the developers come from? Or, as a developer, do you think the consumer should be patient, wait, and be polite no matter what? We have commodity-money relations with the developers, we are not friends, not relatives, we live on different continents and do not know each other personally at all.

{SNIP}

 

Edited September 17, 2023 by Gargamel
Quote removed

[Gargamel]

Thread Reopened (Think I actually forgot to lock it).

Some content has been removed, and posts quoting it likewise. 

Carry on as you were, ad nauseam.  Just remember to not make it personal.

[Superfluous J]

4 hours ago, Alexoff said:

Should we be polite, courteous and patient with them?

Yes.

You should be polite, courteous, and patient with most everybody.

[Alexoff]

22 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

You should be polite, courteous, and patient with most everybody

With everyone and in any circumstances, especially if they are developing KSP2?

[DoomsdayDuck555]

16 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

With everyone and in any circumstances, especially if they are developing KSP2?

Yes, under most circumstances. Most includes Ksp 2 development.

[Infinite Aerospace]

On 9/15/2023 at 12:44 PM, Periple said:

The problem is that right now a lot of you are interpreting everything they say as hype and snake oil! It doesn’t matter how honest they are because you still won’t believe them!

I've been pretty vocal regarding science mode. I'm willing to give him (Chris) the benefit of doubt on the responses as I've got no reason to assume he is being disingenuous. I'd love to think a lot of people here are in the exact same place, I don't think *most* people in the forum want to see the game fail (although I question a few if I'm honest).

 

So where do we go from here? Well, we do all we can do, talk amongst ourselves and wait. Wait to see what 0.1.5 brings and wait for @Nertea Dev Blog regarding science is released. I mean if one of the lead developers can see the benefit of doing that, then I think as a community we to listen. Maybe some really interesting stuff is buried in whatever form that takes.

 

I'd be more than willing to listen provided that some tangible information as to what is going to be going on in science is shared. I can't believe at this point that science isn't a finalised thing, just going through the later stages of its inception. As soon as science and progression drop, the game changes and takes an immediate step forward so I can't imagine it isn't high on the list of things to do.

[Superfluous J]

4 hours ago, Alexoff said:

With everyone and in any circumstances, especially if they are developing KSP2?

I'm saying in general. I was not discussing whether or not the people are developing KSP2. Assuming you see them as human beings then yes, they are included with all the other human beings included in "most everybody"

(to be clear, let's say someone is charging you with a knife. They are the exception and why I said "most everyone" and not "everyone".)

[Periple]

7 hours ago, Alexoff said:

Then where did the debt to the developers come from?

The “debt” comes from devs doing something they’re not obligated to do, as a courtesy: talking with us. Talking with fans is not part of a dev’s job, unless they’re community managers or similar. If they choose to do so, that’s extra.

7 hours ago, Alexoff said:

Or, as a developer, do you think the consumer should be patient, wait, and be polite no matter what?

Yes! Being rude, mean, or sarcastic doesn’t help anyone, including yourself! It just makes people miserable… including yourself!

7 hours ago, Alexoff said:

We have commodity-money relations with the developers, we are not friends, not relatives, we live on different continents and do not know each other personally at all.

We’re also human beings trying to muddle our way through life that can be rough enough without making it rougher by being mean to strangers!

4 hours ago, Alexoff said:

With everyone and in any circumstances, especially if they are developing KSP2?

Yes! It’s just being a decent human being! Also I find that the better I live up to this ideal, the nicer people are to me and the happier I am! 

[Gargamel]

Somebody important once told me "At the end of it all, the only thing you will be judged upon will be the way you treated your fellow man".

It doesn't matter the type of relationship, you treat everybody you meet with respect. 

If the relationship is not working out, then you cut them loose.   You don't _have_ to interact with anybody you don't want to, but when you do....

[RayneCloud]

My two cents here, sine I started this thread,

I've had times in my life where people would compare this situation in gaming where you're upset with a product, to one of ordering food at a restaurant and it coming out wrong, cold, or just plain bad. Yes, as a consumer, you have a right to be upset about a good or service you paid for using money you gained from working away your life not being what you expected it to be. What you don't have a right to do, in my opinion, is to be toxic and abusive even in that situation. If you wouldn't stand up at a restaurant and yell and scream at the server, or go storming in to the kitchen, why would you do that here?

My original post may be a bit spicy for some, but at no point am I yelling at, insulting, or attacking the dev team. People don't stop becoming human beings just because they sold you a product you're not happy with.  

Edited September 17, 2023 by RayneCloud

[RocketRockington]

4 hours ago, RayneCloud said:

My original post may be a bit spicy for some, but at no point am I yelling at, insulting, or attacking the dev team. People don't stop becoming human beings just because they sold you a product you're not happy with.  

I don't think anyone here literally is allowed to be impolite to the developers - because to extend the analogy - the bouncers kick you out of the restaurant or duct tape your mouth shut if you step over the line when speaking about the staff in an actual rude manner.

Thus the argument here is not about politeness - you can still politely tell people they're doing a bad job - but that to be 'polite' here in some people's minds, the ones who want to police the discussion - you have to bend over backward to say 'Oh yes, I'm sure the cook & restaurant staff are all amazing people who in no way shape or form are doing less than their best - only OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES could possibly have caused my food to arrive covered in hair, late, cold, dramatically overpriced, and missing most of what I'd ordered from the high-gloss menu.

Edited September 17, 2023 by RocketRockington
Spelling

[PDCWolf]

3 hours ago, RayneCloud said:

My two cents here, sine I started this thread,

I've had times in my life where people would compare this situation in gaming where you're upset with a product, to one of ordering food at a restaurant and it coming out wrong, cold, or just plain bad. Yes, as a consumer, you have a right to be upset about a good or service you paid for using money you gained from working away your life not being what you expected it to be. What you don't have a right to do, in my opinion, is to be toxic and abusive even in that situation. If you wouldn't stand up at a restaurant and yell and scream at the server, or go storming in to the kitchen, why would you do that here?

My original post may be a bit spicy for some, but at no point am I yelling at, insulting, or attacking the dev team. People don't stop becoming human beings just because they sold you a product you're not happy with.  

We're way past that here.

A lot of pressure is put on whoever happens to criticize the game to adorn and prop up their post with as much praise at possible, otherwise that post and poster get thrown into the "hater pile", whilst the same group of 10 claps at each other for doing it. If that's not dehumanizing, then nobody has a semblance of a right to call anybody toxic or abusive.

[Alexoff]

10 hours ago, Periple said:

The “debt” comes from devs doing something they’re not obligated to do, as a courtesy: talking with us. Talking with fans is not part of a dev’s job, unless they’re community managers or similar. If they choose to do so, that’s extra.

The developers themselves promised communication, as I understand from the title of the topic. They themselves gave their word, but they themselves took it back.

10 hours ago, Periple said:

Yes! Being rude, mean, or sarcastic doesn’t help anyone, including yourself! It just makes people miserable… including yourself!

I'll take a screenshot of this message

10 hours ago, Periple said:

the nicer people are to me and the happier I am!

This is where the complaints are that the developers are not very nice to us. Is it possible to somehow convince them, or are they not obliged?

 

I've heard the idea that you need to speak to people in their language. If a person speaks Japanese, then in order to reach him you need to speak Japanese. If someone says that he is not obliged, that he did not say such a thing, that you never know what he promised before, then communication should, at best, be dry and formal. Treating everyone as friends is unfair to friends.

[Pthigrivi]

4 hours ago, RocketRockington said:

Thus the argument here is not about politeness - you can still politely tell people they're doing a bad job - but that to be 'polite' here in some people's minds, the ones who want to police the discussion - you have to bend over backward to say 'Oh yes, I'm sure the cook & restaurant staff are all amazing people who in no way shape or form are doing less than their best - only OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES could possibly have caused my food to arrive covered in hair, late, cold, dramatically overpriced, and missing most of what I'd ordered from the high-gloss menu.

To use your analogy though typically folks who get served a bad meal send it back, talk to the waitress about it, or if its really bad maybe they leave a nasty review. They don’t typically return to the same restaurant day after day for months on end to harangue other costumers about it. That would be seen as a bit weird. 

[Periple]

1 hour ago, Alexoff said:

The developers themselves promised communication, as I understand from the title of the topic. They themselves gave their word, but they themselves took it back.

This going in circles, but I think they've been communicating quite a lot!

1 hour ago, Alexoff said:

I'll take a screenshot of this message

What for?

1 hour ago, Alexoff said:

This is where the complaints are that the developers are not very nice to us. Is it possible to somehow convince them, or are they not obliged?

I think they're being much nicer than we -- as a community -- deserve!

1 hour ago, Alexoff said:

I've heard the idea that you need to speak to people in their language. If a person speaks Japanese, then in order to reach him you need to speak Japanese. If someone says that he is not obliged, that he did not say such a thing, that you never know what he promised before, then communication should, at best, be dry and formal. Treating everyone as friends is unfair to friends.

There's a long, long way from dry and formal to mean, rude, or sarcastic!

Edited September 17, 2023 by Periple

[RocketRockington]

1 hour ago, Pthigrivi said:

To use your analogy though typically folks who get served a bad meal send it back, talk to the waitress about it, or if its really bad maybe they leave a nasty review. They don’t typically return to the same restaurant day after day for months on end to harangue other costumers about it. That would be seen as a bit weird. 

Is it as weird as customers who acknowledge the food is terrible, are not even eating said food, but  routinely come back to the restaurant each day to make hour-long speeches in front of the restaurant about how people should still be giving it a chance, that it's totally understandable that there's a good chance the customer will get food poisoning, that they should support the restaurant anyway so that some day, perhaps, just maybe the food is less nauseating and vaguely edible -  and if anyone has issues with food poisoning, its their own fault for not reading the fine print? 

I think it's less weird than that, myself.  

Maybe the person returning to remind people "hey this food is actively going to make you sick' is only there because otherwise the people might be fooled by the people routinely delivering those soliloquies, and covering up for the terrible food inside.

[GGG-GoodGuyGreg]

Honestly I prefer radio silence to the type of communication we had so far. 
I’d take silence and the possibility that that time gained is instead used for real work and potentially covering more ground faster and actually progressing through the roadmap instead of Al the theoretical discussions we had so far.

Speaking of time gains, it’s high time that we pause the weekly challenges for a while until the game is in a better shape. 

[RocketRockington]

3 hours ago, GGG-GoodGuyGreg said:

’d take silence and the possibility that that time gained is instead used for real work and potentially covering more ground faster and actually progressing through the roadmap instead of Al the theoretical discussions we had so far.

I'm with you on that.  Though so far every time theyve said they're doing less of something to do something else - mostly things like delaying release to polish the game, then once launched, claiming that slower releases will let them focus features, the results have been the opposite.  A sort of 'do less to do less' strategy.

[Pthigrivi]

6 hours ago, RocketRockington said:

Is it as weird as customers who acknowledge the food is terrible, are not even eating said food, but  routinely come back to the restaurant each day to make hour-long speeches in front of the restaurant about how people should still be giving it a chance, that it's totally understandable that there's a good chance the customer will get food poisoning, that they should support the restaurant anyway so that some day, perhaps, just maybe the food is less nauseating and vaguely edible -  and if anyone has issues with food poisoning, its their own fault for not reading the fine print? 

But did you get food poisoning? Or did you buy a buggy video game? 
 

Restaurants have regulars, and so does KSP. They have a new chef, new menu, and some of us are hopeful they can work out the bugs. You can’t be too surprised when after the 500th time loudly complaining at the bar to anyone who happens to wander by the regulars roll their eyes and say “Okay buddy. Thanks. We heard you.”

[PDCWolf]

1 hour ago, Pthigrivi said:

But did you get food poisoning? Or did you buy a buggy video game? 
 

Restaurants have regulars, and so does KSP. They have a new chef, new menu, and some of us are hopeful they can work out the bugs. You can’t be too surprised when after the 500th time loudly complaining at the bar to anyone who happens to wander by the regulars roll their eyes and say “Okay buddy. Thanks. We heard you.”

Don't confuse "the regulars" with those that share your viewpoint. In fact, a lot of the real regulars clearly have chosen to eat somewhere else.