Refund

[PDCWolf]

7 hours ago, VlonaldKerman said:

Nobody is entitled to a refund. Why would they give you a refund?

You bought the game at a discount, because of the chance that the game wouldn't get finished. If you are unhappy with the discount, you should not have bought the game.

Some civilized countries (and some very civilized steam employees) do not allow developers to just charge money to say they're going to make a game and then abandoning it. Everyone has the right to ask for a refund, and thanks to Steam, they've got the right to ask many times for a refund, making different or the same case.

13 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Epic has, effectively, the same refund policy as Steam:  14 days and less than 2 hours played.

Which is not the point since most people are way past that, in which case Epic support is definitely one of the worst places, if they even bother replying to you. Steam allows you to talk to a human for refunds after the automatic system fails you.

3 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Don't mistake my patience for hope.  I have no illusions that the project is dead, and that the game won't get completed.  I am merely waiting to see what, if anything, TT or PD say at the end of June before deciding if I refund or if I keep it as a reminder.

And it has been dead since Star Theory.  All those decisions back then killed the game.

Some people have been waiting since 2013 for an official statement on 2K Marin's situation.

You've arbitrarily chosen a date as an ultimatum with almost zero reason, hoping they've chosen the same, or any date, to spend resources responding to the ~120 people still waiting to hear whatever. They've merely respected the law by giving their employees paid heads up time before firing them and have no further obligation with the project or the employees, much less their customers.

[Yaivenov]

3 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Don't mistake my patience for hope.  I have no illusions that the project is dead, and that the game won't get completed.  I am merely waiting to see what, if anything, TT or PD say at the end of June before deciding if I refund or if I keep it as a reminder.

And it has been dead since Star Theory.  All those decisions back then killed the game.

Don't wait too long.

My refund was refused due to purchasing it so long ago regardless of the lack of play time or the misrepresentation in their advertisements.  Yes I did it through the "I have a question..." real person, not the automated denial system.

[Uuky]

9 hours ago, VlonaldKerman said:

Nobody is entitled to a refund. Why would they give you a refund?

You bought the game at a discount, because of the chance that the game wouldn't get finished. If you are unhappy with the discount, you should not have bought the game.

You can ask for a commercial gesture by contacting support. It doesn't hurt  

[GGG-GoodGuyGreg]

We are well beyond the point where out of window refunds should have been possible for anyone that feels scammed ( spoiler alert: that’s a lot of people, including me)

That being said I still don’t think it has anything to do with EA. EA has allowed for a lot of unique games that wouldn’t have happened otherwise, and I will continue to look for EAs to support, only I’ll look much much closer and be more patient when doing so, taking this as a hard lesson about that. 
Then I have something to say for the keyboard warriors good at copy and pasting from T&C… would you really be that happy if KSP2 were not to receive any other update starting today, would you still feel like it was 50$  spent on a game that is worth it? Just because it said on the tin that you might only buy the game as it is today?

let’s face it, no one would have bought it, safe for very few, if they would’ve said 50$ only gives you a half assed milestone update (of the 6-7), and that one comes in a year after you pay for it. 

[gluckez]

14 hours ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

That is precisely what is daunting.

I was a heavy gamer since the days of DOS. I lost a decade of continuity due to poor life choices and a nasty dragon riding my back.

Since returning I have enjoyed some games like mindustry. I was so friggin foolish to think I had any experience "modding a game" writing batch files back in the day or modifying single text files / folder of jpegs is nothing.

Understand some very basic stuff  and thought that would prepare me for my first steps .. oh I was so wrong, I can't even crawl.

can't say I blame you for that xD it's really difficult. I've never modded a game, but I'm willing to try. I wonder if there's a modding API documentation anywhere for KSP1, if not it would be useful to create one to see how far this community can take that game.

[cocoscacao]

20 minutes ago, GGG-GoodGuyGreg said:

That being said I still don’t think it has anything to do with EA. EA has allowed for a lot of unique games that wouldn’t have happened otherwise, and I will continue to look for EAs to support, only I’ll look much much closer and be more patient when doing so

This

[Superfluous J]

19 minutes ago, gluckez said:

I wonder if there's a modding API documentation anywhere for KSP

I don't understand any of it, but there is a LOT.

https://www.kerbalspaceprogram.com/ksp/api/index.html

[gluckez]

3 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

I don't understand any of it, but there is a LOT.

https://www.kerbalspaceprogram.com/ksp/api/index.html

thanks! I'm gonna look into that

[Scarecrow71]

20 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

Which is not the point since most people are way past that, in which case Epic support is definitely one of the worst places, if they even bother replying to you. Steam allows you to talk to a human for refunds after the automatic system fails you.

[snip] So let me clarify that for you.

The thread is about refunds and if one should go about getting one.  Primarily for Steam.  But you literally brought up Epic and how if someone bought on Epic you wished them good luck.  I was merely pointing out, for anyone who didn't already know, that Epic has the same refund policy Steam does.  With the same option to talk to a human being if you get shafted by the automated system.  If talking about Epic's policy is pointless, then it's on you for bringing that pointless topic up.

20 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

Some people have been waiting since 2013 for an official statement on 2K Marin's situation.

Speaking of things that are pointless in this discussion...

20 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

You've arbitrarily chosen a date as an ultimatum with almost zero reason, hoping they've chosen the same, or any date, to spend resources responding to the ~120 people still waiting to hear whatever. They've merely respected the law by giving their employees paid heads up time before firing them and have no further obligation with the project or the employees, much less their customers.

No, I have not chosen some arbitrary date for no reason.  The layoffs and the building closure are effective on June 28.  That was set by the company itself as outlined in the WARN notice we are all aware of and have read.  I am waiting until that time - or, rather, giving them the extra 2 days to the literal end of June - to see if they release a statement or not before deciding if I'm going to ask for a refund.  Why?  Because if they do release a statement, I can read it and see if there's anything in there that could potentially be used to help bolster a case for a refund this far out of policy.  Will there be a statement?  Probably not.  If there is, will there be something in there I can use?  Again, probably not.  Does it hurt to wait to see what happens knowing that the likelihood of a refund at this point is pretty close to zero?  No, it doesn't.

Which begs the question:  Why do you care if I wait or not?  It has literally zero impact on you and what happens in your life, so why do you care?  Why throw all this anger in my direction over something that means zero to you?  You feeling lonely and need attention?

Edited June 1 by Vanamonde

[Uuky]

5 hours ago, GGG-GoodGuyGreg said:

That being said I still don’t think it has anything to do with EA.

It has to all do with EA. If EA wasn't existing, you would have requested a refund within ten minutes. But because there was the promises of having a game finished, you kept the licence. And now well, your money's gone like mine

So I think I'll never buy any more EA.  

 

 

[Fizzlebop Smith]

I purchased the title bc I wanted to contribute to something I thought would be similiar to KSP1.

 

I wanted to be part of that community feedback aspect.

It could have taken 10 more years and I'd have been happy to pay if there were honest exchanges with community

[cocoscacao]

50 minutes ago, Uuky said:

It has to all do with EA

Depends on the context. EA on its own isn't good or bad. Just be mindful how you're spending your ca$$$h, and you're golden.

[Uuky]

56 minutes ago, cocoscacao said:

Depends on the context. EA on its own isn't good or bad. Just be mindful how you're spending your ca$$$h, and you're golden.

No it doesn't depend on the context. You'll never know if you can spend the cash.  

 

[chefsbrian]

While there's no harm in asking steam about an improbable refund, I would advise against spamming them with endless requests for the same thing after they've been rejected. If you get to the human layer and they say no, then you should probably stop. They can, and will, flag accounts as malicious refunders if they feel that you're abusing the system, and harassing their staff to try and change an outcome they have no control over is one of those criteria that can get you flagged. Steam doesn't have access to PD's bank accounts to shovel out on a whim - Part of the 14 day window is that steam still has your money and is actually able to give it back. Months or even a year later, PD long since walked off with it and Steam doesn't have anything to give you.

Mass ineligible refund requests also don't trigger steam to do anything, and I'd imagine if for some reason Gabe took personal interest in this situation, that anything discussed between the two is confidential. Steam isn't going to stroll out and somehow force PD to tell us anything or do anything or act on anything, this isn't some good vs evil situation where we "win". We bought a product with an attached promise that they would try to add more to it, attempts were made to add more to the product, development stopped as it didn't work out. No different than all the failed MOBA's and hero shooters over the years that launched with ten years of content plan, delivered two seasons, then went into maintenance mode because it didn't work out.

Buyer beware doesn't mean PD was justified in axing things, or that any of the bad development of the last year was somehow ok or acceptable, but it does mean that as consumers we were provided the tools to know this was a risk, and the bad outcome came up. There's no entity that has a responsibility at this point to somehow make us whole, and the consequences of these actions will be on Take2 and its subsidiaries reputations, and we all know that the average consumer isn't going to draw a link between this game and the next PD early access title.

[cocoscacao]

28 minutes ago, Uuky said:

No it doesn't depend on the context. You'll never know if you can spend the cash.

Just follow Steam suggestion. Are you willing to buy whats currently available? I have two more EA titles, and if development stops tomorrow, I would still be happy with them as they are. That ain't the case with ksp, but I had refund window available. My emotions are my problem.

Edit:

I hope colonies are what is currently being worked on, and I hope they release it in some shape or form before they turn off the lights in the office. 

Edited May 31 by cocoscacao

[K^2]

21 hours ago, Tony Tony Chopper said:

We still don't know how far AI can get

By the time AI can make the kind of game development work that'd qualitatively change ability of one person to make a game, they won't need that one person either, and it won't be our games, it will be their games.

[Lisias]

4 hours ago, Uuky said:

So I think I'll never buy any more EA. 

I just bought two. I know, there're chances to the game to be never finished, but:

• One of them is already on a very decent state, and I think it worths the money being asked as it is now.
• The other is a single dude, doing something that I'm not seeing anyone doing and I liked it.
  • It's, right now, the only shot I have to play a Classic SimCity style game with modern mechanics but still feeling like the classic one.

Don't be too harsh about EA, aim your canons to people abusing it - blame the gamers, not the game.

Edited May 31 by Lisias
Entertaining grammars made slightely less entertaining...

[Fizzlebop Smith]

9 minutes ago, Lisias said:

I just bought two. I know, there're chances to the game to be never finished, but:

• One of them is already on a very decent state, and I think it worth the money being asked as it is now.
• The other is a single dude, doing something that I'm not seeing anyone doing and I liked it.
  • It's, right now, the only shot I have to play a Classic SimCity style game with modern mechanics but still feeling like the classic one.

Don't be too harsh about EA, aim your canons to people abusing it - blame the gamers, not the game.

Sim City franchise is one of my all time favorite citybuilder... would you be willing do messages the title? 

 

I too was a bit put off from Early Access from  KSP and one other recent title, but then I remember other developers who put together wonderful tech blogs.. or another who really getting into community feedback / communication.

I have just decided to start ignoring steams recommendations feed & instead look to the webz at large for recommendations.

[PDCWolf]

11 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Seems like you, like most people here, are quoting something without understanding the actual context in which it was posted.  So let me clarify that for you.

The thread is about refunds and if one should go about getting one.  Primarily for Steam.  But you literally brought up Epic and how if someone bought on Epic you wished them good luck.  I was merely pointing out, for anyone who didn't already know, that Epic has the same refund policy Steam does.  With the same option to talk to a human being if you get shafted by the automated system.  If talking about Epic's policy is pointless, then it's on you for bringing that pointless topic up.

Speaking of things that are pointless in this discussion...

No, I have not chosen some arbitrary date for no reason.  The layoffs and the building closure are effective on June 28.  That was set by the company itself as outlined in the WARN notice we are all aware of and have read.  I am waiting until that time - or, rather, giving them the extra 2 days to the literal end of June - to see if they release a statement or not before deciding if I'm going to ask for a refund.  Why?  Because if they do release a statement, I can read it and see if there's anything in there that could potentially be used to help bolster a case for a refund this far out of policy.  Will there be a statement?  Probably not.  If there is, will there be something in there I can use?  Again, probably not.  Does it hurt to wait to see what happens knowing that the likelihood of a refund at this point is pretty close to zero?  No, it doesn't.

Which begs the question:  Why do you care if I wait or not?  It has literally zero impact on you and what happens in your life, so why do you care?  Why throw all this anger in my direction over something that means zero to you?  You feeling lonely and need attention?

[snip]

Epic's refund policy is pointless except for the people inside said policy. As those who've exceeded the policy's limits would have to try and go through human Epic support. It's clear to me you haven't tried anything with them before, but believe me when I say there's a bigger chance to get $50 from punching sand in the desert than anything regarding human Epic support.

As for the layoffs, that's just clearly not knowing how things work. It's been explained many times that unless the relationship is excellent (and even then), nobody is allowed to come back to work since getting the notice. You don't want someone getting angsty over being fired to have access to the product to sabotage it, make copies, or whatever other destructive practice. If they're allowed back, they're very probably only permitted to finish up whatever task they were doing before not being allowed back in again.

If you don't see how what happened to 2K Marin is relevant, that is not a me problem, it's a you problem.

10 hours ago, Uuky said:

 

So I think I'll never buy any more EA. 

As I told someone else, that's the wrong lesson to learn. First off, it is a good lesson to stay away from big publishers engaging in EA, I'm pretty sure when I say there hasn't been a single successful AAA early access project.

On the other hand, most indie EAs are successful or at least reach a "maybe worth the money" point. However, you are required to be attentive, and not be positive. Positivity adds nothing. The people making a good job know they're doing it and don't need it, and the people lying to your face will feed off of it to lie more, and use it as a basis to ask for more money and more time.

[Skorj]

1 hour ago, Uuky said:

No it doesn't depend on the context. You'll never know if you can spend the cash. 

Just follow Steam's advice to players, and it's fine.  Excerpting:

Quote

In general, these are the types of things players should do before making any purchase on Steam.

Know what you are buying

- With Early Access games, you are going to be playing a work-in-progress. You should consider what the game is like to play right now. Look at the screenshots and trailers to see what the game looks like in its current state. There are a lot of ways a game can change as it develops over time, so if you aren't excited to play the game in its current state, then hold off and wait until a future update or full release.

(Emphasis mine.)

It's good advice.  EA is not kickstarter: buy a game, not a promise and it works great.

[GGG-GoodGuyGreg]

4 hours ago, Uuky said:

It has to all do with EA. If EA wasn't existing, you would have requested a refund within ten minutes. But because there was the promises of having a game finished, you kept the licence. And now well, your money's gone like mine

So I think I'll never buy any more EA.  

 

 

This was EA only by name.

It has been discussed before.

The only part they gladly adopted from how an EA is typically done is that there are no refunds if there are no updates. 

Among many others that define an EA, they skipped implementing user feedback in future updates. They either knew all along what to build or they just winged it all along due to the lack of competence.

and of course you have to be silent when you have nothing to show for after all this time. 

Edited May 31 by GGG-GoodGuyGreg

[Scarecrow71]

[snip]

6 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

Epic's refund policy is pointless except for the people inside said policy. As those who've exceeded the policy's limits would have to try and go through human Epic support. It's clear to me you haven't tried anything with them before, but believe me when I say there's a bigger chance to get $50 from punching sand in the desert than anything regarding human Epic support.

Again, you brought it up.  Which means you made the conversation pointless.

6 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

As for the layoffs, that's just clearly not knowing how things work. It's been explained many times that unless the relationship is excellent (and even then), nobody is allowed to come back to work since getting the notice. You don't want someone getting angsty over being fired to have access to the product to sabotage it, make copies, or whatever other destructive practice. If they're allowed back, they're very probably only permitted to finish up whatever task they were doing before not being allowed back in again.

Again, reading comprehension.  The layoffs are effective June 28.  The studio officially closes on that date.  TT may or may not release a statement at that time.  How is that me not understanding what is happening?  And who else are you talking to that you have somehow assumed I said anything about people going back to the office?  Go ahead and show me where I said anything about that.

6 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

If you don't see how what happened to 2K Marin is relevant, that is not a me problem, it's a you problem.

It isn't relevant.  Yes, it is a studio that got shut down but not really by TT.  How does that happening all those years ago have anything to do with anything I have actually said?  2 completely different sets of circumstances...and I'm not even the one that brought it up.  Again, you keep mentioning things without context and then saying I don't understand or I'm being pointless 

What I think you are failing to realize is that you and I agree that the game is dead, and that TT is unholy, and that we were lied to every step of the way.  And I can't figure out why you feel the need to tell everyone that they are wrong while sitting on some high horse.  Boggles the mind.

[djr5899]

I've got two sides/takes on all of this.

On the one side, Steam's policy on EA games is their policy, and they should not be the one to suffer.  If you are wanting a refund, I'd honestly think a Class Action Lawsuit against Take Two would be the proper avenue to pursue.  Not sure of how threatened Take Two would be in a legal sense, but, I think that would be the better way of approaching it.

On the other side, I think Steam needs to change some of its marketing, refund policies, and policies around Early Access games in general.  I really only started using Steam 5 or 6 years ago, and I started using it to simply, finally purchase KSP1 since I had only been a infrequent demo user player up to that point.  Flash forward to where Steam is now, a giant mega a company with all the games and Steam Deck, etc, and they seem like they could be better run.  There is a huge upswing though in the number of games in Early Access, and where that becomes a problem is, Steam does A LOT of "marketing" of these types of games on their site.

What I would love to see happen around EA games on Steam is 2 or 3 fold.  At a minimum, if you go to Steam's store page, they should limit the pushing of games that are in EA mode.  Make it only shown as a separate Featured Category, instead of for example, showing me 30 space related games that are on sale and 25% of them are EA games.  It would also be better if they had more restrictions on who can sell EA games and how long a game can remain in EA.  Big publishers like a Take Two or Rockstar really should not be able to remain in EA Mode for "years."  Smaller publishers maybe should be a little more restricted on how many or how often they can publish games in EA mode.  The final thing would be, again put some policies in place regarding EA pricing and refunds.  Maybe larger companies can charge more, but also maybe said larger studio only gets 50% of their cut up front, and if they don't meet the requirements to come out of EA mode in the set timeframe, Steam users are eligible for a 50% refund if they are over Steams other 14 day, 2 hour game time limits.

Seems like this would solve a lot of issues.

Edited May 31 by djr5899
word added

[Skorj]

PSA: you can just turn off EA titles in the Steam store.  It's on the store preference page (scroll past the mature content filter stuff).  Lots of cool filters there.

Steam has a very "hands-off" policy about what's allowed on their store, and IMO it's the better for it.  It would be nice if they enforced their existing EA rules, to be sure, but I'm not sure they could afford to pay people to do that, and better what we have now than rogue bots banning stuff seemingly at random.

[Bej Kerman]

21 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I am merely waiting to see what, if anything, TT or PD say at the end of June before deciding if I refund or if I keep it as a reminder.

And getting a refund stops it from being a reminder? That's a really weird principle.

9 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Which begs the question:  Why do you care if I wait or not?  It has literally zero impact on you and what happens in your life, so why do you care?  Why throw all this anger in my direction over something that means zero to you?  You feeling lonely and need attention?

Goes both ways, you don't seem to be getting much out of this discussion. Why bother?