[1.12.5] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.13.0 "Забытый" 13/Aug/2023)

[biohazard15]

6 minutes ago, LoadingTimeExpert said:

I'm using the KSRSS mod which is 2.5x scale real solar system mod, but I've been having a lot of difficulties. It seems impossible for me to get the Mercury-Atlas and Gemini into orbit. I use proper ascent profiles(as best as I can manage) and I'm using the Atlas stage-and-a-half system to the best of my ability(I drop the skirt at around 3g or with about 40 seconds of fuel remaining) but I'm always left nearly 500 m/s short of orbit. With Gemini, I may not be using the optimal flight profile, but if I go any flatter on ascent I start flipping out of control. Anyone have experience with KSRSS or 2.5?

In my experience, both rockets fly absolutely fine and are able to achieve 100x100km orbit from Cape with a lot of fuel to spare (I use MJ with PVG and no coasting).

[LoadingTimeExpert]

58 minutes ago, biohazard15 said:

In my experience, both rockets fly absolutely fine and are able to achieve 100x100km orbit from Cape with a lot of fuel to spare (I use MJ with PVG and no coasting).

Really? And you're in a 2.5x scale system? Maybe I'm just a bad pilot. I'll try mechjeb

[biohazard15]

14 minutes ago, LoadingTimeExpert said:

Really? And you're in a 2.5x scale system? Maybe I'm just a bad pilot. I'll try mechjeb

KSRSS Reborn is natively 2.6x.

[LoadingTimeExpert]

Okay so I tried mechjeb's ascent guidance with Gemini and wow. That ascent profile is way shallower than I thought. Though it didn't really... get to a 100x100 orbit "with a lot of fuel to spare" it reached a 90x90 orbit and I still had to use the OAMS to bring the periapsis above ground level

1 minute ago, LoadingTimeExpert said:

Okay so I tried mechjeb's ascent guidance with Gemini and wow. That ascent profile is way shallower than I thought. Though it didn't really... get to a 100x100 orbit "with a lot of fuel to spare" it reached a 90x90 orbit and I still had to use the OAMS to bring the periapsis above ground level

And then I immediately jettisoned the service module, forcing a premature end to the mission because I forgot what I set my action groups too 

[debaker02]

18 minutes ago, LoadingTimeExpert said:

Okay so I tried mechjeb's ascent guidance with Gemini and wow. That ascent profile is way shallower than I thought. Though it didn't really... get to a 100x100 orbit "with a lot of fuel to spare" it reached a 90x90 orbit and I still had to use the OAMS to bring the periapsis above ground level

And then I immediately jettisoned the service module, forcing a premature end to the mission because I forgot what I set my action groups too 

That's actually how Gemini is supposed to work. It circularizes with the OMS IRL.

[DaveyJ576]

1 hour ago, LoadingTimeExpert said:

Okay so I tried mechjeb's ascent guidance with Gemini and wow. That ascent profile is way shallower than I thought. Though it didn't really... get to a 100x100 orbit "with a lot of fuel to spare" it reached a 90x90 orbit and I still had to use the OAMS to bring the periapsis above ground level

And then I immediately jettisoned the service module, forcing a premature end to the mission because I forgot what I set my action groups too 

Most of the BDB rockets (if assembled correctly), will fly to orbit just fine on KSRSS on MJ Classic Ascent profile. It is somewhat inaccurate historically as it puts in a coast phase and engine restart. Some rockets (Saturn I, Saturn IB) work better  with PVG. 

It has been my experience that MJ does not play well with solid motors as upper stages. You have to manually ignite them by tapping the space bar.

[biohazard15]

3 hours ago, LoadingTimeExpert said:

Okay so I tried mechjeb's ascent guidance with Gemini and wow. That ascent profile is way shallower than I thought. Though it didn't really... get to a 100x100 orbit "with a lot of fuel to spare" it reached a 90x90 orbit and I still had to use the OAMS to bring the periapsis above ground level

 

2 hours ago, debaker02 said:

That's actually how Gemini is supposed to work. It circularizes with the OMS IRL.

That's what I meant about "a lot of fuel".

Note that Gemini SM has two settings for fuel load. Extended tanks aren't supposed to be used with default GLV, you need a somewhat more capable Titan for that (IIIM or IV core generally will do the job).

Here's a pic from launch I just did - default Gemini build with default GLV. Note my PVG settings and the fact that I launched to 120x120. Also, I use a patch that removes engine spooling from Titan (and other) engines - while a cool and realistic feature, it doesn't play well with MJ.

[biohazard15]

Moving on to Mercury.

This is a real quick MA-5 build, without any towers and such (although I did use the updated MLP Atlas stand and skirt doors).

Note the G Force setting on skirt. You don't want to jettison it on reaching particular TWR; you want to drop it when sustainer (and verniers) can achieve 1 or more TWR without it. If you jettison it too early, you won't have enough TWR = more fuel needed to leave the atmosphere (if you even can do that at all). On this particular build, the "sweet spot" is at around 3.8. It's unique to every Atlas, so be sure to always set your skirt correctly.

PVG settings are same as on Gemini - 50\0.5, 120x120.

Note the TWR - it's just a bit above 1, as it should be with Atlas.

And here's the result. 680 m/s of dV is definitely "a lot of fuel to spare"! Note that I use Snacks mod, which adds weight to crewed parts.

 

Addendum: How to setup Atlas skirt properly (You WILL need MJ's dV stats info for this):

1) Build your Atlas - a full rocket with payload.

2) Detach the skirt and place it aside.

3) If they're not here, move LR-105 and LR-101s to the lowest stage. Said stage must not include anything else, only these three engines.

4) Remove the same % of LF and OX from every 1st stage tank (adapter, core, upper) until your TWR is a bit above 1 (this is why you need MJ - to display this info).

5) Reattach the skirt.

6) Move LR-89s to the same stage as LR-105 and LR-101s, and check if the said stage is the lowest one (if necessary. Usually it is necessary, since KSP's auto-assigning is *heavily censored Russian Mat*).

7) Note the TWR - this is number you're need. Open skirt's PAW and set the "G Force" slider accordingly. It is recommended to take some extra precautions - just to be safe. (Example: your pre-jettison TWR is 3.73. Move the slider to 3.8. These are numbers from the above MA-5, BTW).

8) REFILL THE TANKS, check the staging one more time, and launch.

 

EDIT: Whoops, forgot the LES.

EDIT 2: Did a launch with LES, jettisoned it right after the skirt. Same skirt settings, 504 m/s dV left. Kinda makes you think why LES wasn't used on Gemini...

EDIT 3: Note that real Atlas shut down its LR-105 and used only LR-101s for the final circularization\fine tuning. I haven't tried that (yet).

Edited August 21 by biohazard15

[GoldForest]

1 hour ago, biohazard15 said:

EDIT 2: Did a launch with LES, jettisoned it right after the skirt. Same skirt settings, 504 m/s dV left. Kinda makes you think why LES wasn't used on Gemini...

What you mean? Gemini did have an LES. It just wasn't a tower. And it was only useful in the first minute or so of flight. Also, they didn't need the LES. Titan was the safest rocket in the world, just like the Space Shuttle.  ./s

[LoadingTimeExpert]

3 hours ago, biohazard15 said:

Moving on to Mercury.

This is a real quick MA-5 build, without any towers and such (although I did use the updated MLP Atlas stand and skirt doors).

Note the G Force setting on skirt. You don't want to jettison it on reaching particular TWR; you want to drop it when sustainer (and verniers) can achieve 1 or more TWR without it. If you jettison it too early, you won't have enough TWR = more fuel needed to leave the atmosphere (if you even can do that at all). On this particular build, the "sweet spot" is at around 3.8. It's unique to every Atlas, so be sure to always set your skirt correctly.

PVG settings are same as on Gemini - 50\0.5, 120x120.

Note the TWR - it's just a bit above 1, as it should be with Atlas.

And here's the result. 680 m/s of dV is definitely "a lot of fuel to spare"! Note that I use Snacks mod, which adds weight to crewed parts.

 

Addendum: How to setup Atlas skirt properly (You WILL need MJ's dV stats info for this):

1) Build your Atlas - a full rocket with payload.

2) Detach the skirt and place it aside.

3) If they're not here, move LR-105 and LR-101s to the lowest stage. Said stage must not include anything else, only these three engines.

4) Remove the same % of LF and OX from every 1st stage tank (adapter, core, upper) until your TWR is a bit above 1 (this is why you need MJ - to display this info).

5) Reattach the skirt.

6) Move LR-89s to the same stage as LR-105 and LR-101s, and check if the said stage is the lowest one (if necessary. Usually it is necessary, since KSP's auto-assigning is *heavily censored Russian Mat*).

7) Note the TWR - this is number you're need. Open skirt's PAW and set the "G Force" slider accordingly. It is recommended to take some extra precautions - just to be safe. (Example: your pre-jettison TWR is 3.73. Move the slider to 3.8. These are numbers from the above MA-5, BTW).

8) REFILL THE TANKS, check the staging one more time, and launch.

 

EDIT: Whoops, forgot the LES.

EDIT 2: Did a launch with LES, jettisoned it right after the skirt. Same skirt settings, 504 m/s dV left. Kinda makes you think why LES wasn't used on Gemini...

EDIT 3: Note that real Atlas shut down its LR-105 and used only LR-101s for the final circularization\fine tuning. I haven't tried that (yet).

Thanks

[Cheesecake]

1 hour ago, GoldForest said:

What you mean? Gemini did have an LES. It just wasn't a tower. And it was only useful in the first minute or so of flight. Also, they didn't need the LES. Titan was the safest rocket in the world, just like the Space Shuttle.  ./s

Gemini had ejection seats.

Edited August 21 by Cheesecake

[GoldForest]

1 hour ago, Cheesecake said:

Gemini had ejection seats.

Yes. I know. I was hinting at that with the phrase "It just wasn't a tower." 

Ejection seats are an LES. Launch Escape System. 

Edited August 21 by GoldForest

[Zorg]

M1

[CobaltWolf]

On 8/18/2024 at 3:31 PM, Pappystein said:

Correct, as conceived, the KH-10 Dorian (Manned Orbital Laboratory,) would be de-orbited just before crew return.  This means the Transtage is a controlling Attitude.

The what?

 

On 8/19/2024 at 3:24 PM, dave1904 said:

Any chance we can have this part in white? It would also be very nice if there was an Inon and centaur tag on it because it took me ages to find that part originally. 

B-but it looks so good with the black!

It's on my to-do to look into it but I'm still... uh... playing Battletech every moment I'm not at the office.

Honestly I'm not sure what texture sheet it went on or if there's an efficient way to add an all-white switch. The tags can easily be fixed.

[Pappystein]

5 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

The what?

Hey,  I have seen several drawings showing the entire stack with CM set for deorbit with the Transtage on the back end.   Probably drawings for the "battleship" flight now that I think about it.

 

 

Edited August 21 by Pappystein

[ArgentBlue]

Sorry I'm not sure how to file a bug report on GitHub but I wanted to let you know that the dev branch update to the Apollo SLA doesn't include the part switch for the big gemini interstage.

[Razgriz1]

1 hour ago, Pappystein said:

Hey,  I have seen several drawings showing the entire stack with CM set for deorbit with the Transtage on the back end.   Probably drawings for the "battleship" flight now that I think about it.

 

 

The one battleship test flight they did do, the Transtage stayed attached, but the operational plan did not include the Transtage. MOL was supposed to have its own equipment module that could provide attitude control. The Gemini spacecraft would still retain its retromotors for its own deorbit, and the station module would just decay on its own, as far as I can tell.

[Gupyzer0]

21 hours ago, LoadingTimeExpert said:

Okay so I tried mechjeb's ascent guidance with Gemini and wow. That ascent profile is way shallower than I thought. Though it didn't really... get to a 100x100 orbit "with a lot of fuel to spare" it reached a 90x90 orbit and I still had to use the OAMS to bring the periapsis above ground level

And then I immediately jettisoned the service module, forcing a premature end to the mission because I forgot what I set my action groups too 

Try to get an eccentric orbit first then you circularize at AP. Gemini usually started in an eccentric orbit (like Gemini 6A ->161 by 259 km) and then used OAMS to circularize so my experience is don't try to get a circular orbit with Gemini right at the start.

 

Quote

Note that Gemini SM has two settings for fuel load. Extended tanks aren't supposed to be used with default GLV, you need a somewhat more capable Titan for that (IIIM or IV core generally will do the job).

Actually I can orbit Gemini using the GLV and the extended SM tanks, even with some overweight if I remember correctly, will test again anyways.

Edited August 21 by Gupyzer0

[coyotesfrontier]

On 8/20/2024 at 12:25 PM, Zorg said:

The shader pack mod will drop as soon as Shabby is updated to support it. Trust me you will all be informed here when its available.

In the meantime...

Edited August 21 by coyotesfrontier

[biohazard15]

1 hour ago, Gupyzer0 said:

Actually I can orbit Gemini using the GLV and the extended SM tanks, even with some overweight if I remember correctly, will test again anyways.

To clarify: default GLV can orbit Gemini with extended tanks, it just means that Gemini would need to do a longer burn.

BTW, according to Ed Kyle, early proposal for GLV was a Titan II with stretched 1st stage ("Titan 2.5", as he calls it). I think it was a bit shorter than IIIM, though. The proposal never materialised due to time and budget constrains.

[LoadingTimeExpert]

What's the plan supposed to be for getting the LEM truck(with the flatbed module) to the moon? Cause you can't hook it onto an Apollo CM. Do you prefer just shuttling it over inside the S-IVB stage all the way? 

[ArgentBlue]

1 hour ago, LoadingTimeExpert said:

What's the plan supposed to be for getting the LEM truck(with the flatbed module) to the moon? Cause you can't hook it onto an Apollo CM. Do you prefer just shuttling it over inside the S-IVB stage all the way? 

If my memory serves me right you're supposed to mount the Apollo SM upside down on top of the truck's payload  using a 2.5m fairing to cover the engine.

[dave1904]

the elevons are the wrong way round but whatever. Works really well haha

[GoldForest]

7 hours ago, LoadingTimeExpert said:

What's the plan supposed to be for getting the LEM truck(with the flatbed module) to the moon? Cause you can't hook it onto an Apollo CM. Do you prefer just shuttling it over inside the S-IVB stage all the way? 

One of three ways: 

1) You can stick a rover on the Truck, as intended, then dock the CSM to the rover. 

2) Totally unmanned Truck. It wouldn't stay inside the S-IVB stage, it would detach and fly on its own. 

3) The CSM and Truck would travel separately to the Moon (Mun in our case) via same launch or separate launches. They would then rendezvous in orbit of the Moon/Mun. IRL, the Apollo crew would then remote guide the truck down to landing via orbital radio control. The truck would then wait for the NEXT lunar landing crew, as the crew in the rendezvous CSM that piloted it down would have gone home after probably sometime in lunar orbit without having landed on the Moon themselves.  In KSP, you could EVA over to the truck and let a Kerbal pilot it down to the surface. Just make sure you have a base established with a way for them to get back home first. 

Edit:

The LM Truck has more than enough Delta V to make it to circularize around the Mun, I did so at about 16KM, and then head on down to the surface. 274 M/S left in the tanks. KSP says that's about 47 seconds of fuel. Mechjeb concurs with that estimate at around 46.7 seconds. 

Edited August 22 by GoldForest

[GoldForest]

@Rodger I just noticed this, but the top half of the S-IVA (S-IV-2200) doesn't have any fuel switching.