KSP2 map view in separate window

[klesh]

10 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

I wouldn't.  How many games support multiple game windows, independent of each other?  I am not aware of any, which doesn't mean that they aren't there. This is a significant effort for very few users of it

There are a few that you can bounce a signal to an ipad or other screen for things like maps, pip boy menus, etc. That would mean a KSP2 companion app as well.  Why do you think "very few" people would use it?

This article discusses the abandonment of the Second Screen concept by developers, so indeed some have found it to be not worth it, or put them in as an afterthought so the experience was lame and not worth it.  That doesn't mean this has to be the case with KSP2 though. I would love to see KSP2 innovating and making a second screen experience available, and of course making it awesome.  I agree no one needs a lame SSE that no one will use.

This article discusses different second screen experiences.  Not always something like maps. Imagine you ipad next you with all kinds of telemetry on it. I would dig that.  Maybe its used to talk to other people in your multiplayer game while they are playing and you are away from a computer.

 

In digging around, it seems like a second screen experience was a hot topic 5-7 years ago.  There is clearly some reason(s) they aren't as popular today as they were once envisioned being. I don't spend alot of time postulating about videogame design so I will certainly admit to just having opinions.    Some people here are talking here like KSP2 is custom software they've ordered and don't want things they personally wont use included in it.  I know what I would like to see and what we'll get will no doubt be two very different things because its not kleshSpaceProgram2.  Also,  the people making KSP2 should be considering the rigs people will be playing on 5+ years from now as well. 

 

 

Edited July 12, 2020 by klesh

[klgraham1013]

I think this sort of multi monitor support would be nifty.

 

19 hours ago, klesh said:

I expect cool features like this working right out of the box.

Hey now.  That's not the Kerbal tradition.

 

[pandaman]

5 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

....it doesn't need pointless bells and whistles to appease the double-monitor master-race.

Sorry, but I take a little offence at this ^.  Just because I have, and regularly use, two monitors does not make me, or anyone else who does 'superior'.  I have them purely because I find them extremely useful generally, I have two 'cheap' monitors as they are much more use to me than a single one that costs twice as much.

Yes, KSP does work fine with one monitor, and so it should.  But that does not mean that being able to use additional ones couldn't enhance it.

I recall at least one other thread discussing this for KSP1, so it's not like 'nobody' wants it.

I currently use my second monitor (in KSP) for reference stuff,  Dv map, etc.  But, for example, to be able to drag the 'KerbNet' window across to it so it is not blocking my 'main view' would be a nice option.

I have no idea how much extra work it would be to include, but if it is reasonably possible then why not?  And if it's not included then so be it.

[Bej Kerman]

49 minutes ago, pandaman said:

Sorry, but I take a little offence at this ^.  Just because I have, and regularly use, two monitors does not make me, or anyone else who does 'superior'.  I have them purely because I find them extremely useful generally, I have two 'cheap' monitors as they are much more use to me than a single one that costs twice as much.

I'm just making a sarcastic statement about how most users would have to take a performance hit and suffer wasted storage if KSP 2 were to have support for multiple monitors for the "master race".

52 minutes ago, pandaman said:

I have no idea how much extra work it would be to include, but if it is reasonably possible then why not?  And if it's not included then so be it.

As hinted at by many of the comments here, it probably would be more work than what it's worth.

[pandaman]

44 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

As hinted at by many of the comments here, it probably would be more work than what it's worth.

That may well be the case, and if so then never mind, we haven't 'lost' anything.  But that still doesn't stop it being something I would be happy to have as an option.

[swjr-swis]

I've been using multiple screens both professionally and at home for what feels as forever. I feel practically claustrophobic when I'm forced on a single screen now.

I too would love to see the different 'apps' and views from the current KSP become windows that can be arbitrarily repositioned at my convenience over the combined screenspace of whatever monitors I happen to have connected.

Right now, the best KSP allows me to do is run multiple instances of KSP where one is progressing through some mission and the others are designing and testing other craft (or the same, with on-the-fly lessons learned from the primary instance). Or when I am trying to rebuild a craft made in a newer version in 1.3.1, running both versions side by side to quickly compare.

Flight simulators have given us this ability for how long now? It's a sorely missing capability from a game that to all effects could be considered the 'next step'.

The technical debt counter argument makes me giggle. We're talking KSP here. It's one big heap of technical dept, and this is the one that we're going to stumble on? The one that is practically entirely handled by the OS?

Anyway. Yes please, map view as a separate window that can be open in parallel, whether on the same (picture in picture style) or (preferably) on separate monitors.

 

[linuxgurugamer]

You know, I just remembered Telemachus, which essentially provides an unlimited number of windows via a web browser.

So I just tried it out.  Rather impressive, but I'm wondering what the overhead is, especially in a heavily modded game

It's something I'm going to explore a bit, it seems that it can be quite useful

[DunaManiac]

I am all for it if it isn't too much of a performance hit, since I use a single monitor.

[The Aziz]

I don't know why people are so worried about performance. It's not like it's gonna make separate calculations (which are the same) on two screens simultaneously. The only thing the map mode on second screen would have to do is, surprise, show the map. As in, render some planets and numbers. And that's only if it was active. 

 

...if we're going by logic presented here, I think the docking mode should be deleted from first game as it's used only by very few players and for many it's unused code.

/s

[AlamoVampire]

@Draco T stand-up guy

its not about what i alone want or do not want. I refer you back to that pc gamer poll that has now been linked twice into this thread. Once by me and once by @Bej Kerman . The numbers do not lie. Do people enjoy using 2+ monitors? Yes. Is there a majority demand for it in games? Using that poll as a guide: NO. 
 

You are asking for a feature wanted by under 44% of users to added in, adding more work for a dev team that has an already enormous job. That added work has a not insignificant chance of increasing technical debt as short cuts get taken on genuinely critical gameplay aspects just to meet the deadlines. Is this worth benefitting less than 44% of users? The answer again is no.

 

223407122020

[mattinoz]

I'd be an all thumbs yes please for second screen control interface of some description. Mods will surely fill the gap if KSP doesn't.

Bonus thumbs if that second screen was say multi-player controls to the mothership running on my main machine. Would be sweet to have 2-3 players in the same room on laptops Tables even phones controlling parts of a central craft.

I'd ask why even light weight full EVA or Buggy racing on the Mun should be possible even games we see on mobile these days. Still just a map view or interactive control deck would be cool.

[Draco T stand-up guy]

10 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

I'm just making a sarcastic statement about how most users would have to take a performance hit and suffer wasted storage if KSP 2 were to have support for multiple monitors for the "master race".

Except for the fact that it would be so little that no one would notice it. Reasonably modern PCs are over-powered for KSP. KSP2 will need a better graphics card but I doubt if I'd need to run out and buy an upgrade for my present mid range one.

11 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

As hinted at by many of the comments here, it probably would be more work than what it's worth.

Seems simple enough.

[pandaman]

2 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

Is this worth benefitting less than 44% of users? The answer again is no.

Well 44% is nearly half, so that's not an insignificant number (most politicians would get elected easily with that proportion of the overall votes) so why not consider providing it?  

As I've said before, it is a feature I would appreciate and use if it is included, as would many others I believe (I guess even many of those arguing against it would too if they had the hardware).

I don't know how practical or 'easy' it is to actually implement, or the technical implications of doing so,  but that is a different issue to whether or not it would be a useful feature to include.

[AlamoVampire]

@pandaman LESS than 44% of respondents. That is less than half. I am sorry but, I would MUCH prefer to see development time go into vital critical game assets than a feature that according to that poll is used by less than 50% of users. Sorry, but, things like optimization, proper physics calculations, making sure automation of supply chains, making sure the game is more stable than KSP1, making sure any number of vital aspects that will be used by all players regardless <just using the scheme of KSP1> of sandbox or science or career is vastly, unimaginably more important than whether or not users can use a second or third or fourth or 300th monitor. I hope @ShadowZone approves of me using his video on technical debt in this argument. If sir, you disapprove please pm me and I will remove the link. 

Why not consider providing it?

1. Less than 44% of respondents in the poll that has now been linked 3 times state they use multiple monitors. That is not a majority demand.

2. Game development is a business, and with that comes deadlines. Deadlines mean that features do not always see a full finish and instead get a slapdash finish on them to meet the deadline. This causes the next deadline cycle to get accelerated and cause more corner cutting. In the video by Shadowzone this is called technical debt. Technical debt is worrisome even to me with my limited experience coding. 

3. Core features and functions should take priority and have the lions share of time devoted to them. There is only so much time in a work day or work week to get work done. I again would rather, much much rather and highly prefer as a future end user of KSP2 to know that the time of the developers was devoted to features 100% or near 100% of the users will be using instead of something for less than half of them. 

4. I am not saying that technical debt is the ONLY reason to not include it. I AM saying that technical debt adds to the impracticality of trying to support a feature desired by less than 45% of users in that poll. I am also saying that taking time from other needed work on features that are game critical is an added cost factored into said impracticality.

I am not trying to be snobbish or anti-multi monitor support. I am however being pragmatic about it. I as an end user cannot see as a potential customer a justification for them putting what is already limited time into the feature. I truly get that players want <not most, just some> this feature, but, again, I cannot see a positive cost/benefit of it for the whole of us. I just cannot see it. I try to see, but, I cannot. I hope you understand, but, for me, I have said all that I can say on this. I feel any more will be retreading already covered ground.

 

024207132020

[pandaman]

@AlamoVampire  I think it is fair to say we are both correct ...  Yes 44% is certainly 'less than half', but it is also 'nearly half'.  It is not therefore a huge minority, and I would also expect that this proportion is probably more likely to increase than decrease.

I am not arguing that this is, or should be, more important and given a higher priority than many, or indeed most, other features.  It is, for me at least, very much a 'very nice to have if possible' thing.

I understand the point about it potentially channelling resources away from developing more 'key' features, and I don't disagree with that.  There are undoubtedly, and absolutely, more important things that should, and will, take priority.

But that doesn't mean that I wouldn't like to see it included.  That is, if the dev team feel it is worth doing.

In short...

Is multi-monitor support something I personally would like included? Yes.

Is it more important than key gameplay etc? No, absolutely not, it is probably towards the lower end of my 'wish list' to be fair.

[AlamoVampire]

@pandaman fair enough. I would imagine in 3-4 maybe 5 years time that ratio will swap. For now, on the road to release its a feature best left ignored. I say they should get the game made, ensure stability, reasonable performance first. Then a year or two or three after launch, then try to integrate it. 
 

I would say such a plan is more ideal. My opinion.

 

034307132020

[Guest]

I would say that in certain cases the ability to undock the map or the various instruments from the main window could be useful outside the use of a multi-monitor set-up.

Also the API required for an eventual in-browser map could be used for a lot of projects (custom cockpits with indicators and displays).

 

[AlamoVampire]

@Master39 Nice idea but thats more devtime away from critical things being dumped into fluffy extraneous extras. Id say your idea would be nice 4-5 years post launch, but not right now. Right now critical game play items and systems trump by far the lists of “would be nice options”. 

 

040507132020

 

040607132020

Edited July 13, 2020 by AlamoVampire

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

Nice idea but thats more devtime away from critical things being dumped into fluffy extraneous extras. Id say your idea would be nice 4-5 years post launch, but not right now. Right now critical game play items and systems trump by far the lists of “would be nice options”. 

I'm spending 60€ on this game, I'm not expecting core features like hardware support being postponed to "maybe in 4 or 5 years".

For a simulator hardware support is a core feature.

This is not a early access indie game, it's a AA game developed by a big publisher.

 

[AlamoVampire]

@Master39

It just is not that widely asked for. Again 44% of respondents use multimonitor. That being said, you are right, this is a AA title, which means that the company will be pushing HARD on deadlines, which increases technical debt exponentially. Please watch that video I linked from shadowzone, he explains this far better than I can. I am not implying that your desire for this feature is invalid, I am clearly stating that it is not a feature that is game critical right NOW. I am sorry if this upsets you sir, but, the bottom line is, KSP2 is a product being designed to make Take Two money, and that means they will push their contracted sub designhouse to finish KSP2 as fast as they can. This will invariably lead to technical debt. Adding a feature to appease less than 45% of players at this point is ludicrous at best. Would it be nice to see AFTER the game is stable, polished, functioning nicely for ALL users in all the correct and intended ways? Absolutely sure. Is it a good idea to take what limited time the developers have RIGHT NOW to push a feature that again, LESS THAN 45% of respondents in the now 4 times linked poll consider using? NO, absolutely not, its absolutely inconsiderate. Its asking that the rest of us accept a lesser job on core features just to again appease less than 45% of people. No. I am by no means a programmer and even I can see the handwriting on the wall of just how impractical it would be. I get that you think its a good idea, I respect that you think that, its just that sadly, right now, youre wrong. I am sorry if I upset you, but, multimonitor support is not now, nor will it likely EVER be a CRITICAL feature needed to make the game work for 100% of its users. It just sadly isnt. Please do not assert that players who do not have a want or a need or the ability to make use of the feature be forced to accept the idea that there is a better than likely chance core feature developmental time will suffer at such a behest. I have absolutely nothing left to say on this. 

 

044907132020

[Bej Kerman]

5 hours ago, Draco T stand-up guy said:

16 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

I'm just making a sarcastic statement about how most users would have to take a performance hit and suffer wasted storage if KSP 2 were to have support for multiple monitors for the "master race".

Except for the fact that it would be so little that no one would notice it. Reasonably modern PCs are over-powered for KSP. KSP2 will need a better graphics card but I doubt if I'd need to run out and buy an upgrade for my present mid range one.

Technical debt is bad and it will pile on if useless things are requested instead of bug fixes and useful things.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

@Master39

It just is not that widely asked for. Again 44% of respondents use multimonitor.

Even less have an HOTAS, Gamepad or 3D mouse but I would consider "core features" even those.

44% is like 40% more than I expected.

 

8 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

That being said, you are right, this is a AA title, which means that the company will be pushing HARD on deadlines,

They opened a new studio and given the Devs an year and an half more time to finish the game, it doesn't seems to me to be a game made on a thight budget and with strict deadlines.

8 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

Please watch that video I linked from shadowzone, he explains this far better than I can.

Already watched back in the day and agreed with it at the time for the situation it was referring to that certainly isn't this one.

 

8 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

I am not implying that your desire for this feature is invalid, I am clearly stating that it is not a feature that is game critical right NOW. I am sorry if this upsets you sir

I have no personal use for this feature at the moment, I used my "dream triple monitor set-up" money to buy my first VR Kit and i don't think I'll run a double monitor before 2022 since my PC budget for 2021 will go towards a new CPU and GPU.

I still think that hardware support is important for a simulator.

 

8 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

the bottom line is, KSP2 is a product being designed to make Take Two money, and that means they will push their contracted sub designhouse to finish KSP2 as fast as they can.

You say this but the fact the game was due to be released last March and it got postponed to fall 2021 says otherwise.

 

8 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

45% [...] 45% [...] 45% 45% 45%

You're continuing to repeat this like it is a small number.

 

I have no multi-monitor, no plan to get one and yet I'm supporting this feature existence, to mouch cool hardware being left behind because of lazy developers or bean counters.

 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Guest

[Draco T stand-up guy]

17 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Technical debt is bad and it will pile on if useless things are requested instead of bug fixes and useful things.

Quote

“Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the Western spiral arm of the galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting this, at a distance of roughly ninety million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue-green planet, whose ape descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea. This planet has, or had, a problem, which was this. Most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small, green pieces of paper, which is odd, because on the whole, it wasn't the small, green pieces of paper which were unhappy. And so the problem remained, and lots of the people were mean, and most of them were miserable, even the ones with digital watches. Many were increasingly of the opinion that they'd all made a big mistake coming down from the trees in the first place, and some said that even the trees had been a bad move, and that no-one should ever have left the oceans. And then one day, nearly two thousand years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change, a girl, sitting on her own in a small cafe in Rickmansworth suddenly realised what it was that had been going wrong all this time and she finally knew how the world could be made a good and happy place. This time it was right, it would work, and no-one would have to get nalied to anything. Sadly, however, before she could get to a phone to tell anyone, the Earth was unexpectedly demolished to make way for a new hyperspace bypass and so the idea was lost forever.”

Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Edited July 13, 2020 by Draco T stand-up guy

[Bej Kerman]

39 minutes ago, Draco T stand-up guy said:

56 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Technical debt is bad and it will pile on if useless things are requested instead of bug fixes and useful things.

Quote

“Far out in the uncharted backwaters of the unfashionable end of the Western spiral arm of the galaxy lies a small unregarded yellow sun. Orbiting this, at a distance of roughly ninety million miles is an utterly insignificant little blue-green planet, whose ape descended life forms are so amazingly primitive that they still think digital watches are a pretty neat idea. This planet has, or had, a problem, which was this. Most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small, green pieces of paper, which is odd, because on the whole, it wasn't the small, green pieces of paper which were unhappy. And so the problem remained, and lots of the people were mean, and most of them were miserable, even the ones with digital watches. Many were increasingly of the opinion that they'd all made a big mistake coming down from the trees in the first place, and some said that even the trees had been a bad move, and that no-one should ever have left the oceans. And then one day, nearly two thousand years after one man had been nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be to be nice to people for a change, a girl, sitting on her own in a small cafe in Rickmansworth suddenly realised what it was that had been going wrong all this time and she finally knew how the world could be made a good and happy place. This time it was right, it would work, and no-one would have to get nalied to anything. Sadly, however, before she could get to a phone to tell anyone, the Earth was unexpectedly demolished to make way for a new hyperspace bypass and so the idea was lost forever.”

Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Explain what this has to do with anything concerning this thread.

[swjr-swis]

5 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Explain what this has to do with anything concerning this thread.

It's at least 42% of the answer.