Unity 2021 LTS brings KSP2 closer to release

[TLTay]

Not sure clickbait applies. It'd be nice if the planets looked like that, but I'm always reminded that they're designing this game with PS4 compatibility in mind. I think it'll look good, but not that good, sadly. It's more a reflection of the constraints in hardware, time, and money than designer skill. I'm sure there'll be scatterer2 or something...

[Bej Kerman]

30 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

36 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

I still call clickbait.

Clickbait for what? I posted 6 cool videos related to Unity graphics that can be used for KSP and useful information about what environment features we can expect to be in the game. Are you not entertained?

You pulled a correlation between KSP 2 and LTS out of nowhere, that's clickbait.

[Vl3d]

8 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

You pulled a correlation between KSP 2 and LTS out of nowhere, that's clickbait.

KSP2 will have to use A Unity LTS version. They cannot make the game without Unity LTS. I just hope the team uses the newest and best version.

[Bej Kerman]

On 4/21/2022 at 2:58 AM, Gargamel said:

That’s rub.     I haven’t noticed either way.  
 

To be honest though, I’d rather see the dev team stay with whatever version of unity or tool they are currently using.  
 

There’s a precedent here, any time over the past decade the KSP tram has decided to update to a new version of Unity, it has introduced new bugs that basically set the game back a version as we waited for them to be fixed.   Some of them really never got fixed, just worked around.  
 

This close to release, it’d be ridiculous to change engine versions just because it’s shiny.    Imagine the uproar if they said they had to delay another year cause they changed engines and everything broke.  

@Vl3d did you understand none of this? "Unity LTS brings KSP 2 closer to release" is exactly the kind of sensationalist junk journalists try to sell to viewers. When will you understand that this is a lie?

6 hours ago, Vl3d said:

KSP2 will have to use A Unity LTS version. They cannot make the game without Unity LTS. I just hope the team uses the newest and best version.

Citation: I made it up :>

[t_v]

43 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

7 hours ago, Vl3d said:

KSP2 will have to use A Unity LTS version. They cannot make the game without Unity LTS. I just hope the team uses the newest and best version.

Citation: I made it up :>

So this is actually true - if you want a game to last for a decade on new hardware, you need an LTS version of the engine unless you want to update it yourself. LTS means long term support, which means that as new graphics cards, CPUs, and other computer hardware comes out, the Unity devs will take time making sure that their engine runs well on those cards, usually for up to 10-15 years, whereas for non-LTS, if a new piece of hardware comes out or a new version of the OS comes out, the game will no longer run, which is a hassle for developers to fix, basically requiring them to do the whole engine update thing every time Windows gets a major patch. 
 

However, is seriously doubt that they chose a version that released in 2021 because as mentioned above, updating from one LTS version to another at that stage of development would add considerable delay. 

[kerbiloid]

I strongly doubt that cartoonish, simplified, comical, frog&crab-looking Kerbals are in harmony with such detailed nature.

KSP-1 nature revamps look more humble.

[Gotmachine]

On 4/21/2022 at 3:58 AM, Gargamel said:

There’s a precedent here, any time over the past decade the KSP tram has decided to update to a new version of Unity, it has introduced new bugs that basically set the game back a version as we waited for them to be fixed.   Some of them really never got fixed, just worked around.  

That's just not true. The decision to upgrade from Unity 5 to more modern versions was the best thing that happened to KSP. It fixed tons of issues and increased performance on multiple fronts (for example, remember the whole GC stutter issue ? It's a thing of the past thanks to the Unity incremental GC mode).
And it was a godsend for the modding community. It allowed to use modern .NET tools and Unity features. Many mods like RealAntennas, Parallax, EVE, Scatterer or TUFX are taking advantage those features.

Nate Simpson stated multiple times that they envision KSP2 as a game that will be supported and expanded for many years. It would make no sense to freeze the Unity version.
Unity is a fairly stable product at this point and they are committed to preserve backward compatibility.
Letting the game engine fall behind mean falling behind the entire PC ecosystem, both in terms of software and hardware support.

On 4/23/2022 at 4:01 PM, t_v said:

LTS means long term support

Unity LTS versions are supported for 2 years. A game engine is like every software in the world. You have to keep yourself updated regularly.

On 4/23/2022 at 4:01 PM, t_v said:

updating from one LTS version to another at that stage of development would add considerable delay. 

In the specific case of Unity, updating while in development isn't difficult at all and is very unlikely to break anything major. Freezing the engine version is only justifiable once the development cycle has entered the final refinement/bug-hunting phase where every major feature is complete.

Edited May 16, 2022 by Gotmachine

[t_v]

36 minutes ago, Gotmachine said:

Unity LTS versions are supported for 2 years. A game engine is like every software in the world. You have to keep yourself updated regularly.

Thanks for that info- I was under the assumption that LTS would be a longer time, like a decade or so. In that case, the devs will definitely have to update themselves. 
 

 

38 minutes ago, Gotmachine said:

In the specific case of Unity, updating while in development isn't difficult at all and is very unlikely to break anything major. Freezing the engine version is only justifiable once the development cycle has entered the final refinement/bug-hunting phase where every major feature is complete.

Oh, that’s great then! Thanks for updating my understanding of how Unity is, and in that case, than yes, updating the engine would be beneficial, but I’ll maintain that re-doing their bespoke solutions to implement the standard Unity clouds would not be a good use of time at the moment. On the technical side though, updating sounds like a good thing. 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

On 4/20/2022 at 6:15 PM, Vl3d said:

I think the KSP2 team was waiting for the 2021 LTS release for Unity so they can lock features into a stable product.

Now we can expect some very cool features in the game related to environments and like it was designed with KSP in mind (I wonder if there was some collab between Intercept and Unity):

"HDRP performance upgrades and features like NVIDIA DLSS for desktop, Volumetric Clouds, and Static Shadow Caster."

I've seen some pre-LTS environment videos, everything looks absolutely amazing.

Some of them even show storms with wind, rain, lightning and snow.

There's also Expanse with some impressive demos, I don't know if the KSP2 uses this or their own tools.

Wonder if we'll also have Ray Tracing..

So... Those are beautiful.  But I'm not sure they're applicable for KSP2.  Maybe volumetric lighting, but unlikely all the trees and etc 

Given this 

 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

@Vl3d - I'm not sure my link above was the one I meant... phone was dying and I grabbed the link and went with it.  But then there's also this (time linked)

I think the atmospheric scattering that they showed in the show and tell might use some of what you're describing.

But then I look at this, and think you're not far off:

...

I admit I don't know much (anything, really) about game design or Unity - but my impression is that a lot of those scenes, fantastic though they may be, are sets.  Everything thought out, designed and placed. 

With KSP2, outside of the various terrain given the geometry of the moons and planets we could land on, I suspect that veggies and rocks and the like will have to be randomly generated visuals.  Sort of a coded 'this area gets these objects to scatter about with x level of density'.

So - I'm saying I expect an upgraded version of the trees we can see in KSP on Kerbin, where a few special items exist on the planet, but in general everything except terrain is something you can just drive through.  (like the rocks on the Mun & etc. too).

 

[Vl3d]

I feel like some of us don't understand we're on the verge of a revolution in video game graphics, which makes KSP2 possible.

 

[t_v]

KSP 2 is already possible, it is in development right now

 

Also: only 2 km?

https://kerbal-forum-uploads.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/monthly_2022_05/005_minmus_flyover_wireframe.mp4.7f8acc6469d9775f1dbe78f03262092a.mp4

Edited July 5, 2022 by t_v

[Vl3d]

2 minutes ago, t_v said:

KSP 2 is already possible, it is in development right now

I don't believe it was possible in 2021 or earlier. Not at the level of detail it has now. We're talking about computing LOD with massive parallelism.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Vl3d

[t_v]

Just now, Vl3d said:

I don't believe it was possible in 2021 or earlier. Not at the level of detail it has now.

This post where I got their LOD system from was in 2021... And a lot of their planet rendering from earlier in 2021 showcased this... I hope that you understand that the KSP 2 developers are actually making code to do stuff in the game, not just taking it off of whoever else can make it. Level of detail systems have been around for a long time, and the KSP 2 devs implemented their solution before and separate from this tech demo. It it was "impossible" to achieve this level of detail for a AAA team, how did the researchers you linked do it? Or how did the KSP 2 devs do it months ago?

[Vl3d]

Concurrent binary trees - paper published by Unity research scientist  Jonathan Dupuy in August 2020, implemented throughout 2021 in the engine.

https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/3406186

Also please check this out - this is the Next Gen (UE5 Nanite equivalent):

 

Edited July 5, 2022 by Vl3d

[Gargamel]

4 hours ago, Vl3d said:

Not at the level of detail it has now.

What are you talking about?   Nothing has been released yet, just dev videos.   And every gamer knows what happens when you believe dev videos.   To assume anybody out side of the studio knows what the game exactly looks like is ludicrous.  

[Hotel26]

7 hours ago, Vl3d said:

on the verge of a revolution in video game graphics, which makes KSP2 possible

I read this as meaning that it is 'video game graphics' that makes KSP2 (and all other video games) possible and, hence, any revolution in video game graphics, such as 'concurrent binary trees', has tremendously interesting potential impact for video game players (us).  (Just my interpretation and Vl3d can elaborate...)

But therefore, thank you very much, @Vl3d, for linking these videos and paper.  I'll watch the videos with interest.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Hotel26

[Vl3d]

3 hours ago, Hotel26 said:

I read this as meaning that it is 'video game graphics' that makes KSP2 (and all other video games) possible and, hence, any revolution in video game graphics, such as 'concurrent binary trees', has tremendously interesting potential impact for video game players (us).  (Just my interpretation and Vl3d can elaborate...)

But therefore, thank you very much, @Vl3d, for linking these videos and paper.  I'll watch the videos with interest.

Yes, dynamic LOD is crucial for high performance of tessellated terrain generation with static geometry. It's how you get millimeter resolution without popping meshes and textures all over the place like in previous dev videos where they had ~5 LOD mesh depth levels for Minmus.

(I only understand the broad concepts)

 

Edited July 6, 2022 by Vl3d

[Xelo]

10 hours ago, Vl3d said:

I don't believe it was possible in 2021 or earlier. Not at the level of detail it has now. We're talking about computing LOD with massive parallelism.

The thing is, KSP2 as described by the planet tech insights does all of the LOD in the gpu. Yknow, the processor that only does an absurd amount of computations in parallel anyway. So the Concurrent binary trees may be a bit redundant to the devs, but it seems to have some advangtages in the tessellation between the borders of Lod (even thoh that can be fixed with quadtrees). Additionally even if the devs used this technique you wont get much of a detail increase, both techniques rely on a heightmap (normally a huge grayscale texture), which is limited by the memory in ur gpu. So even if it has incredible fidelity on a 2km square, you shouldnt expect that level for an entire planet, and hence why ksp2 uses terrain scatter and procedural elements at finer details. Terrain features that dont need to be fully stored and sent to the gpu essentially. As for the nano thing, having it scale to 1m (still very low poly looking) polygons on kerbin is equivalent to having a 1m boulder have polygons the size of bacteria. Having millimeter precision, is like boulder polygons the size of a water molecule. You just cant store that kind of detail in a way thats worth it. I get the hype but its too easy to point at a new technology and not consider its limitations and how its used.

[Vl3d]

59 minutes ago, Xelo said:

You just cant store that kind of detail in a way thats worth it.

Nanite for example does clustering and compressed data streaming for meshlets. It takes advantage of DX12 calls that allow GPU <- SSD assets transfer.

So you just store it on the SSD with special compression.

There's a lot of cool new tech for graphics. Details are less important.

[t_v]

5 hours ago, Vl3d said:

Yes, dynamic LOD is crucial for high performance of tessellated terrain generation with static geometry. It's how you get millimeter resolution without popping meshes and textures all over the place like in previous dev videos where they had ~5 LOD mesh depth levels for Minmus.

(I only understand the broad concepts)

 

First, KSP 2 does have dynamic LOD. As you move the camera, an algorithm determines what areas to subdivide into more triangles, similar to that paper. The reason you see popping in KSP is because the textures are not flat colors and they are using far less triangles than the demo is. KSP also seems to have “infinite” depth levels, as triangles were being generated at scales that are impossible to store in memory.

4 hours ago, Vl3d said:

Nanite for example does clustering and compressed data streaming for meshlets. It takes advantage of DX12 calls that allow GPU <- SSD assets transfer.

So you just store it on the SSD with special compression.

There's a lot of cool new tech for graphics. Details are less important.

I looked at that, and it seems pretty revolutionary! Leveraging this might allow for a much higher level of fidelity, but first the data needs to be stored (or slowly generated). The problem with storing mesh data on a planetary scale is that planets (and even moons) are really large. A map for one high-fidelity planet can be upwards of 300 megabytes, and that is at current KSP fidelity. It would be very frustrating to download KSP 2 if the file size was 5 TB. So, all of the finer surface details are generated when you get close to the ground, which might be slower and might mean you cannot render as many triangles as before, but this keeps file sizes in check. 

[MechBFP]

5 hours ago, Vl3d said:

Details are less important.

Less important to who exactly? Lol. You ever heard the phrase “the devil is in the details” and other related idioms?

The details are literally always important in everything. 

[jost]

Even If they use Unity 2021 LTS (might be true if they got early access and the information that it would be LTS soon) this doesn't need to mean that this will mean graphics/clouds etc  like in the other referenced games/demos.  Obviously this doesn't say it won't include them too. Of course this argument works in both directions.  
Personally I think that the most likely reason for the delays is that they had problems with implementing their intended main goals for KSP2  and quality assurance (aka testing and bug fixing). Since they had multiple delays I don't think it's likely that they implementend stuff like in the demos when they still had other work to do. But we can't be sure: Of course the other reason for the delay might be that they wanted to use the shiny new features and needed the time. Since none of the developers will talk about it (they want to keep their job and propably signed NDAs on their first day on the project) we won't know before the actual release of KSP2. 

Either way: This demos actually don't proof anything.