Near Future mod parts reused in KSP2?

[Cyne]

I could be wrong, but some parts from gameplay previews look uncannily similar to the parts from the Near Future mods Nertea created. I'm well aware Nertea has been hired onto the KSP2 team so this is completely fine if they really have reused the parts albeit with retextures it looks.  From the gameplay videos I've spotted the 5m Annular truss parts and 5m cargo parts from Near future construction/launch vehicles

Personally if this is the case I'm slightly dissapointed -  having been a user of the Near Future mods for a long time means I'm far too familiar with the parts, and using them as parts again in KSP2 just feels kinda... strange, considering it's a new game. Just to clarify - it's not like there are many ways to make a truss/cargo bay so I could be wrong, and the parts aren't bad - no complaints with the parts themselves, I'll still happily use them. I'm also aware people who haven't played KSP with the mods before also won't have used the parts, so this isn't a issue for them,

Thoughts?

Edited January 29, 2023 by Cyne
wording

[Missingno200]

I'm confused on why you're disappointed personally. I'd be elated if a high quality mod was implemented into sequel game, and was when Fallout 4 tried its hand at it.

They're also probably different models, because I'm pretty sure the original models are under a license which means neither IG, nor Squad can use them. That said, "legally distinct models that happen to look like the original models but slightly different" will invoke the same feelings as the original models so your point stands and that falls to semantics.

[GoldForest]

54 minutes ago, Cyne said:

I could be wrong, but some parts from gameplay previews look uncannily similar to the parts from the Near Future mods Nertea created. I'm well aware Nertea has been hired onto the KSP2 team so this is completely fine if they really have reused the parts albeit with retextures it looks.  From the gameplay videos I've spotted the 5m Annular truss parts and 5m cargo parts from Near future construction/launch vehicles

Personally if this is the case I'm slightly dissapointed -  having been a user of the Near Future mods for a long time means I'm far too familiar with the parts, and using them as parts again in KSP2 just feels kinda... strange, considering it's a entirely new game. Just to clarify - it's not like there are many ways to make a truss/cargo bay so I could be wrong, and the parts aren't bad - no complaints with the parts themselves, I'll still happily use them. I'm also aware people who haven't played KSP with the mods before also won't have used the parts, so this isn't a issue for them,

Thoughts?

Honestly, I feel like having Nertea's mods as stock is very good. Nertea himself felt they were good enough to reuse, and tbh, he's right. His parts are of the highest quality and can't be beat. 

As for KSP 2 being an entirely different game, it's not. It's KSP 1 expanded. The code has been rewritten, yes, but at the core KSP 2 is KSP 1, just with new features and new parts and new vision. 

12 minutes ago, Missingno200 said:

I'm confused on why you're disappointed personally. I'd be elated if a high quality mod was implemented into sequel game, and was when Fallout 4 tried its hand at it.

They're also probably different models, because I'm pretty sure the original models are under a license which means neither IG, nor Squad can use them. That said, "legally distinct models that happen to look like the original models but slightly different" will invoke the same feelings as the original models so your point stands and that falls to semantics.

This. 

Also, from what I understand of copyright, only 10% of the 'copy' (For lack of a better word) needs to be changed to avoid copyright infringement. So, they could use the same model, but change the paint on it. Like how the 5m cargo bay parts of the reusable launcher we saw are silver instead of white. 

Also also, Nertea could have given his permission. His mods are All Rights Reserved, yes, but he could have given expressed permission for Intercept to reuse his assets. So, no copyright infringement was done. 

[Cyne]

44 minutes ago, Missingno200 said:

I'm confused on why you're disappointed personally. I'd be elated if a high quality mod was implemented into sequel game, and was when Fallout 4 tried its hand at it.

They're also probably different models, because I'm pretty sure the original models are under a license which means neither IG, nor Squad can use them. That said, "legally distinct models that happen to look like the original models but slightly different" will invoke the same feelings as the original models so your point stands and that falls to semantics.

Less dissapointment and more lack-of-a-word-to-describe-my-burnout-in-ksp1-from-using-same-parts-for-too-long and fearing that I won't know what to do with the parts in ksp2... which in hindsight is mostly a nonissue because of the hopefully large amounts of new parts in ksp2. And as I said I don't really mind using the parts even if they are the same, beacuse Nertea's mods are still amazing.

23 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

As for KSP 2 being an entirely different game, it's not. It's KSP 1 expanded. The code has been rewritten, yes, but at the core KSP 2 is KSP 1, just with new features and new parts and new vision.

Didn't word it well then lmao, I know this and wouldn't want ksp2 to be a entirely different game

23 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

Also also, Nertea could have given his permission. His mods are All Rights Reserved, yes, but he could have given expressed permission for Intercept to reuse his assets. So, no copyright infringement was done. 

^ But we won't know for certain if the parts are new models or not until release day /shrug

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Cyne

[Streetwind]

KSP2 was planning to do future propulsion concepts and interplanetary flight long before they hired Nertea.

Since Nertea's mods often implemented proposed realworld concepts, it's unavoidable that there would be some overlap.

That said, it's not impossible that he did work on some of these parts. I imagine that might have felt odd to him as well

[Sunforge]

1 hour ago, Streetwind said:

KSP2 was planning to do future propulsion concepts and interplanetary flight long before they hired Nertea.

Propulsion (and other stuff) for sure has obvious overlap between Nertea’s work and what the devs were planning, but part of me does wonder if certain things like hinged fairings would’ve still been in the game had they not hired him. I guess that might depend on just how much influence he has over what parts get made, so idk. 

[Vl3d]

The parts depict realistic future technologies. You want someone to re-invent technologies that don't even exist yet? They just have details and structure that look plausible.

PS: For years I have avoided installing and using Nertea's Future Mods just to have the experience of discovering them in KSP2.

[AtomicTech]

On 1/29/2023 at 2:39 AM, GoldForest said:

avoid copyright infringement

Nertea works for Intercept and has his stuff as ARR so he could just easily allow them to use his models just as if we asked someone permission to use their models in our own mod from an ARR or CC-BY-NC-ND or CC-BY-ND mod.

[GoldForest]

2 minutes ago, AtomicTech said:

Nertea works for Intercept and has his stuff as ARR so he could just easily allow them to use his models just as if we asked someone permission to use their models in our own mod from an ARR or CC-BY-NC-ND or CC-BY-ND mod.

I know. I even say this in my post.

[Scarecrow71]

I don't understand what the hub-bub is about on this.  Nertea's mods are freely available to the public for KSP1.  Nertea works for Intercept.  Why wouldn't IG want to use his models as stock in KSP2?  The fact that the possibility exists is awesome.

[GoldForest]

1 hour ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I don't understand what the hub-bub is about on this.  Nertea's mods are freely available to the public for KSP1.  Nertea works for Intercept.  Why wouldn't IG want to use his models as stock in KSP2?  The fact that the possibility exists is awesome.

Copyright. Nuff said.

[whatsEJstandfor]

49 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

Copyright. Nuff said.

He would presumably own the copyright, no? Why wouldn't he grant a perpetual license?

[GoldForest]

5 minutes ago, whatsEJstandfor said:

He would presumably own the copyright, no? Why wouldn't he grant a perpetual license?

I think he would, I'm just throwing out there that if there was something blocking them from using his mods as stock, copyright would be the reason. 

[Strawberry]

4 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I don't understand what the hub-bub is about on this.  Nertea's mods are freely available to the public for KSP1.  Nertea works for Intercept.  Why wouldn't IG want to use his models as stock in KSP2?  The fact that the possibility exists is awesome.

I highly doubt theyre the same model because Nate Simpson on the discord mentioned the part artists helping make the tanks "Those tanks are absolutely the work of Nertea (with the help of our excellent parts artists Jonathan Cooper, Pablo Ollervides, and Alexander Martin)".

They're definitely the same design, but I dont even know if porting a model directly from ksp1 would be possible, and even if it was I doubt itd look good due to ksp1 having lower graphics support for things.

[Kerbart]

1 hour ago, Strawberry said:

They're definitely the same design, but I dont even know if porting a model directly from ksp1 would be possible, and even if it was I doubt itd look good due to ksp1 having lower graphics support for things.

The conceptual design is the main work. "This is a 1.25m cupola. It will have 4 windos and here's the air lock"

Then you'll need to model it in a style that's consistent with the rest of the game. There's clearly a lot of work involved but that can be farmed out. What you need is the permission of the person with the vision.

[Pthigrivi]

Since they're including some of this stuff I'd love to see them include nuclear salt-water rockets. So effing cool:
 

 

[JadeOfMaar]

On 1/30/2023 at 12:40 PM, Scarecrow71 said:

I don't understand what the hub-bub is about on this.  Nertea's mods are freely available to the public for KSP1. 

Freely available for you to download and casually enjoy (as a player)? Yes. (Configs specifically are ShareAlike.) The hard part about licensing is preventing others from taking the textures and models, scribbling over and remixing them and saying "I made this" which devalues the art and the artist. All of Nertea's models and textures are clearly licensed ARR which basically means "You're not allowed to do anything other than casually enjoy this unless I personally give you permission."

ARR for KSP mods generally means "Whatever is here is not to be recolored or otherwise directly edited, used in any way at all to make or add to another artwork, another mod or any 3D art outside of KSP, not to be re-uploaded and hosted in other places. If the owner takes down their art or mod, it's an offense to put it back up for yourself and it might be an offense to  share from your copy of it."

While ARR provides for maximum restriction it also provides for quite some freedom. Nertea can easily give permission to Intercept Games to reuse his models if he wanted to. This permission is an exemption or whitelist type thing and whoever or whatever group or corporate entity gets this permission is effectively entered into a contract so such exemptions must always be deeply thought out. Legal issues can come from under your bed and tear your leg off if the person or group you gave exemption to decides they don't like you anymore, so the wiser option for a modder being hired by a corporate is to spend the effort and make distinct models and art for the corporate.

[Stone Blue]

@JadeOfMaar heh,, i read thru the thread.. and about halfway thru, i decided I was gonna reply with just about the same answer.. but as always, someone said it probably much moar eloquently than I could

 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Stone Blue

[Scarecrow71]

9 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

Freely available for you to download and casually enjoy (as a player)? Yes. (Configs specifically are ShareAlike.) The hard part about licensing is preventing others from taking the textures and models, scribbling over and remixing them and saying "I made this" which devalues the art and the artist. All of Nertea's models and textures are clearly licensed ARR which basically means "You're not allowed to do anything other than casually enjoy this unless I personally give you permission."

ARR for KSP mods generally means "Whatever is here is not to be recolored or otherwise directly edited, used in any way at all to make or add to another artwork, another mod or any 3D art outside of KSP, not to be re-uploaded and hosted in other places. If the owner takes down their art or mod, it's an offense to put it back up for yourself and it might be an offense to  share from your copy of it."

While ARR provides for maximum restriction it also provides for quite some freedom. Nertea can easily give permission to Intercept Games to reuse his models if he wanted to. This permission is an exemption or whitelist type thing and whoever or whatever group or corporate entity gets this permission is effectively entered into a contract so such exemptions must always be deeply thought out. Legal issues can come from under your bed and tear your leg off if the person or group you gave exemption to decides they don't like you anymore, so the wiser option for a modder being hired by a corporate is to spend the effort and make distinct models and art for the corporate.

So how is that different than him allowing IG to use them in KSP2?  Or granting them license to make changes?  Or making the changes to them himself?

They are his models.  Why is it a big deal if he gives IG permission to use them?

[JadeOfMaar]

14 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

So how is that different than him allowing IG to use them in KSP2?  Or granting them license to make changes?  Or making the changes to them himself?

They are his models.  Why is it a big deal if he gives IG permission to use them?

There's no difference. The same restrictive license can be used (only by him) to allow IG to use his models. It's a big deal because the NF mods would then become a point of serious legal issues and nobody wants to end up there. "This mod is using assets that now belong to the developers of a game that isn't even out yet." Given Take Two's reputation (as they own IG) who knows what they would do about it. The parent company that's being disturbed doesn't even have to be them. Any corporate, however benign, would have a problem. And KSP 1's EULA would be violated in at least one way, too.

Edited February 3, 2023 by JadeOfMaar

[OrbitalManeuvers]

After reading your text, I think I get the gist of your comment: you'd rather be seeing brand new parts for KSP 2 instead of rehashed/refreshed parts from KSP 1. But do keep in mind that NF parts are a mod, and not in the base game. You've seen and used these parts by choice, whereas a lot of stock players won't even know these exist, and they'll look totally new. The original is a great design, as you've noted, so it makes sense to use the same design. You're just seeing Nert's design sense expressed through the KSP 2 dev team, which is reassuring to me ... maybe the base parts will be more sensible and usable in KSP 2.

[benjee10]

9 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

So how is that different than him allowing IG to use them in KSP2?  Or granting them license to make changes?  Or making the changes to them himself?

They are his models.  Why is it a big deal if he gives IG permission to use them?

There is always the potential for legal issues down range if either party has a disagreement. New assets produced under contract would be legally much simpler. 

Besides, even if they were to use existing parts, they would need to completely redo the textures for the new lighting engine and make model changes to match the other new parts, so it is not a huge amount of extra effort to just remake the thing from scratch (and probably easier than another team of artists having to dig into assets that are years old and not necessarily produced with a production environment in mind). 

Just looking at the parts you can see they're a complete remake. The silhouette is the same but there are only so many ways to skin a cat so to speak. 

[Stone Blue]

Also, on the flip-side... it prevents any legal stickiness, *after* KSP 2 release... ie Nertea can't raise a legal issue, becuase, say, IG didnt use the assets as intended/specified under the legal agreement... or suppose IG decides to use the assets in another game, or marketing, or to mae plushies to sell... vOv

Its just best, I'm sure, if assets are *wholly* started from scratch, under an employer/employee work contract, just to avoid any possible future stickiness.

Now, on the other hand, they *did* hire Nertea, probably for at least one reason *is* becuase of his NF parts.
SO, I would expect similarities... I mean, if you hire an artist to do work for you, based on their past work... *of course* there will most liely be similarities/sameness in aspects... I mean, *thats why you hired them in the first place*... you liked their *style*

also, regarding things that *may* be exactly the same... There are certain things/aspects... where there's only so many different ways to "skin a cat"... and an artist is gonna use those methods that are most familiar to them

Just my humble take.

[Poodmund]

34 minutes ago, benjee10 said:

There is always the potential for legal issues down range if either party has a disagreement. New assets produced under contract would be legally much simpler. 

Besides, even if they were to use existing parts, they would need to completely redo the textures for the new lighting engine and make model changes to match the other new parts, so it is not a huge amount of extra effort to just remake the thing from scratch (and probably easier than another team of artists having to dig into assets that are years old and not necessarily produced with a production environment in mind). 

Just looking at the parts you can see they're a complete remake. The silhouette is the same but there are only so many ways to skin a cat so to speak. 

I mean... who would have thought, eh?! The real world/concept 'things' that inspired Nertea to make the NF suite of parts have ALSO inspired the KSP2 asset team when making their own parts. Crazy!

[Kerbart]

56 minutes ago, OrbitalManeuvers said:

After reading your text, I think I get the gist of your comment: you'd rather be seeing brand new parts for KSP 2 instead of rehashed/refreshed parts from KSP 1. But do keep in mind that NF parts are a mod, and not in the base game. You've seen and used these parts by choice, whereas a lot of stock players won't even know these exist, and they'll look totally new. The original is a great design, as you've noted, so it makes sense to use the same design. You're just seeing Nert's design sense expressed through the KSP 2 dev team, which is reassuring to me ... maybe the base parts will be more sensible and usable in KSP 2.

No, the issue is that ultimate ownership of KSP lies with Take Two, who have shown some dubious approaches to perceived copyrighted content in the past.

If KSP2 is reusing NF mod parts, and have paid Nertea for intellectual ownership of said parts, it could lead toKSP1  NF parts being yanked or while we are in fantasy land, the ability to mod KSP1 being shut down "given that it's a cesspool of copyright infringement."

And while T2 has done some wild stuff, it seems extremely unlikely something like that will happen, and there are also a lot of assumptions built in there. We don't know if those parts are there, we only have some screenshots. We don't know if those parts are ported over and adapted, or simply used as an inspiration to rebuild them from scratch to match the KSP2 styling. We don't know if that point the NF mod copyrights still apply. And if they do (I'm not a lawyer but it seems not likely), we don't know how the licensing was worked out.

But if a lot of very unlikely "ifs" are met, and Intercept feels alienating their community over mods that have been freely accessible for the past half decade is worth it, then yes, there is a remote chance it might become an issue. Getting struck by lightning twice seems a bigger risk though, if you want something to worry about.