Probes and manned exploration progression

[Vl3d]

I thought that the general consensus was that unmanned tech and exploration should come before sending kerbals out, like in real life, but I think we need a poll.

I also added a question about the progression for aircraft and rocketry.

All these are very important for the incentives structure of the game for the Science mode update. It's a major game design decision to make the player explore by sending probes first like in real like or limiting utility of probes because of lack of control. Especially because there is the lack of limitations imposed by life support, which would have made progression more natural by incentivising unmanned missions.

Also I reached the limit for the number of questions, but do you think tech progression should unlock the smallest rocket diameter first or should miniaturization come later in the tree?

Edited August 30, 2023 by Vl3d

[Periple]

I think it would make sense to go from smaller to larger rockets, and from probes to crewed missions!

I also think this ought to be about rockets so you should be able to make one right out of the gate, I love planes but they should be a side dish! Maybe start with a basic set of rocket and plane parts?

[Vl3d]

21 minutes ago, Periple said:

ought to be about rockets so you should be able to make one right out of the gate

So a very small rocket (sounding rocket) with a probe on top first, instead of a medium rocket with a manned capsule on top like in KSP1?

21 minutes ago, Periple said:

I love planes but they should be a side dish

But why not a manned rocket glider before a vertical takeoff manned rocket? That's how it was done in real life.

Edited August 30, 2023 by Vl3d

[Periple]

57 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

So a very small rocket (sounding rocket) with a probe on top first, instead of a medium rocket with a manned capsule on top like in KSP1?

Yes!

58 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

But why not a manned rocket glider before a vertical takeoff manned rocket? That's how it was done in real life.

Because aerodynamics are hard and they won't get you to space! (At least not with early-game tech!)

[Pthigrivi]

I take a bit of a nuanced view. It all has to do with how early on the tech tree various parts and systems are and how they're introduced to the player. There's also the new player experience to be considered, as the tech tree isn't just a progression mechanic, its also teaching players how to play the game. In KSP1 the probe parts are already early enough to use them for your first Mun orbiters and landers. Thats good, but I might even suggest moving them up just a smidge so they're available in between your first suborbital hops and reaching orbit. The issue is that probes require batteries and solar and it seems more important in the first 2-4 launches that players just get used to the really basic-basics--thrust, staging, maneuverability, parachutes, etc. By the time you go orbital though even a crewed launch will want solar and/or batteries, so while players are trying to reach orbit for the first time giving them the option to lower the mass threshold and not worry so much about reentry by using probes makes a lot of sense. From there they could do more probe missions to the moons or switch back to crewed missions as they preferred. 

Planes on the other hand are actually by comparison much more difficult to design and fly. I would hold those back even more than they are, personally. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[Royalswissarmyknife]

Planes should be unlocked at the beginning.

Not everyone wants to fly planes and they dont provide much in the way of science or money that you can get with a rocket.

but they should be unlocked at the same time as rockets like many unmanned tech tree mods do.

[cocoscacao]

5/5 division on airplane tech before rocketry so far. That's curious. On the behalf of people who voted as I did, let me tell you how the other half is wrong and why... 

[Pthigrivi]

5 minutes ago, cocoscacao said:

5/5 division on airplane tech before rocketry so far. That's curious. On the behalf of people who voted as I did, let me tell you how the other half is wrong and why... 

I get the argument. A lot of folks see KSP as a historical recreation sim and from that standpoint planes first seems like the only logical choice. But I think its worth keeping in mind KSP2 is a game and its not called Kerbal Plane Program. When players first open up the game and see their first slate of parts to work with in the VAB they should be limited and they should involve Kerbals and Space. Planes are also much more difficult to design and fly effectively so including them from the outset could create a more confusing and frustrating opening experience. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[cocoscacao]

13 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

Planes are also much more difficult to design and fly effectively

That's true actually. It took me several tutorials to figure out what the f I'm doing wrong. I guess this more depends on how progression tree will be applied. But I do think basic plane parts should be available early on. Mk2 and shuttle cockpits are in the category of space planes in my book...

Edited August 30, 2023 by cocoscacao

[Vl3d]

1 hour ago, Pthigrivi said:

its worth keeping in mind KSP2 is a game and its not called Kerbal Plane Program

That's not a valid argument IMO. Rocket planes are as much of a rocket as a vertical take-off vehicle. Besides, it should actually be Kerbal Aero-Space Program. And planes in KSP2 are super easy to design and fly.
What I'm arguing is that sounding rockets should come first, then manned rocket planes, then probes and after that the manned vertical stack rocket.

[razark]

I would love to see support for multiple tech trees you can select from at the start of a save, with the ability to create and share custom ones.

[Vl3d]

Just now, razark said:

I would love to see support for multiple tech trees you can select from at the start of a save, with the ability to create and share custom ones.

Or maybe multiple ways to navigate the tree - like building an RPG character / play-style. I feel like everyone should be able to build their own signature space-craft families, also contingent on available resources. I want my stuff to be unique.

[Mikki]

eggsellent poll, thank you!

Edited August 30, 2023 by Mikki
typo

[Periple]

57 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

That's not a valid argument IMO. Rocket planes are as much of a rocket as a vertical take-off vehicle. Besides, it should actually be Kerbal Aero-Space Program. And planes in KSP2 are super easy to design and fly.
What I'm arguing is that sounding rockets should come first, then manned rocket planes, then probes and after that the manned vertical stack rocket.

They’re only easy if you already know what you’re doing! You need to understand center of mass, center of lift, how to place landing gear, how to place control surfaces, and more. And then you need to learn to fly it — which will be extra hard because your first place will most likely be pretty bad! This is a lot to take in! 

I think the progression should be from little rockets to big rockets — launch, gravity turn, reaching orbit, deorbiting safely, RV and docking, intercepting another body, orbiting it, landing, returning from high orbit. The only reason to put planes in there is out of a misplaced sense of historical verisimilitude!

If you throw basic aerodynamics in there it just won’t be fun for a lot of people. Planes should be optional and they certainly shouldn’t gate progression in the main point of the game. I do love it that we have them though!

[Pthigrivi]

20 hours ago, Vl3d said:

That's not a valid argument IMO. Rocket planes are as much of a rocket as a vertical take-off vehicle. Besides, it should actually be Kerbal Aero-Space Program. And planes in KSP2 are super easy to design and fly.
What I'm arguing is that sounding rockets should come first, then manned rocket planes, then probes and after that the manned vertical stack rocket.

I mean its easy for you and me, but the devs need to consider the overall cost/benefit to play experience for all players. If the starting slate of parts is focused on simple capsule + tank + engine parts it starts to teach new players the core game in the simplest way possible. Since KSP is centrally about space exploration youre trying to get players to orbit as quickly as you can, using the same kit of parts and iterating and adapting to get higher and farther.  Injecting planes in between clouds the issue because plane design and managing CoL and take off and landing are much more difficult than producing a gravity turn. Inexperienced players are then more likely to get bogged down and frustrated because you have this big speedbump in the progression. Experienced players on the other hand will have flown a few hops and unlocked more complex parts like probes and airplanes in less than an hour. What’s critically important for one section of the player base comes at virtually no cost to the other. Its not uncommon. Even really complex games spend the first few moments teaching things like “press A to jump”. 
 

So if it were me, Id start with very basic 1.25m parts; then add batteries, solar, and simple probes along with a few more engines and the 1.25m service bay; then start adding plane parts around the same time as 2.5m parts and more diverse munar landing options. That is give players everything they need to safely achieve orbit first and then open up the options for what to do next. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[Superfluous J]

I don't want to be forced to send up a bunch of tiny rockets that do nothing before I can actually have fun in the game.

I don't want to be forced to send a probe first if I am capable of sending a Kerbal.

I don't care about planes, except in figuring out how to transport them between planets.

[RocketRockington]

11 hours ago, Vl3d said:

Or maybe multiple ways to navigate the tree - like building an RPG character / play-style. I feel like everyone should be able to build their own signature space-craft families, also contingent on available resources. I want my stuff to be unique.

This would be pretty cool - and potentially low cost as a feature.  Pick an early specialty and have early missions (if missions of any sort are an actual thing in KSP2) be based around that choice.  Newbies should still be warned to go for simple rockets, while other players can try starting with planes or unmanned probes or maybe unlock high-inclination launch sites.  In KSP1 you could do it by collecting science from KSC.  Hopefully that's not a thing anymore though.

RP1 is currently doing a pretty awesome 'program' system where you choose whether you want to do an early X-planes program or not.  

[Periple]

13 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

I don't want to be forced to send up a bunch of tiny rockets that do nothing before I can actually have fun in the game.

I don't want to be forced to send a probe first if I am capable of sending a Kerbal.

Do you like progression modes at all? They’re all about starting out with limited capabilities and expanding them as you go. There’s not a lot you can do with the parts you start with in KSP1!

[Superfluous J]

2 minutes ago, Periple said:

Do you like progression modes at all? They’re all about starting out with limited capabilities and expanding them as you go. There’s not a lot you can do with the parts you start with in KSP1!

I love them. I love having to work within limitations to achieve a goal so I can expand my abilities to reach the next goal.

I don't want those limitations to be "you can't possibly make it more than 1000m vertical but don't worry. After your first or 2nd launch you'll unlock the ability to go... wait for it... 2000m vertical!"

I also don't want those limitations to be "sure you have capsules that can house Kerbals but no you can't take them to the Mun that would be WRONG. Send a probe first and don't you dare land it you bad boy! Flybys only on the first trip!"

Edited August 31, 2023 by Superfluous J

[Periple]

11 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

I don't want those limitations to be "you can't possibly make it more than 1000m vertical but don't worry. After your first or 2nd launch you'll unlock the ability to go... wait for it... 2000m vertical!"

That would be tedious! I don’t think anyone would like that!

I would like the initial parts to be 0.625 size and include the Spark, fuel tanks (longer than the Oscar), a probe core, a reaction wheel, a battery, an antenna, and fins. That would be enough to get you to orbit (and even back if you’re clever). I would also have enough ground stations that you wouldn’t need to worry about losing the signal.

This way you would learn what each of the parts are for and what you need to make a controllable rocket.

You would then unlock the first crew compartment with the 1.25 m parts.

11 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

I also don't want those limitations to be "sure you have capsules that can house Kerbals but no you can't take them to the Mun that would be WRONG. Send a probe first and don't you dare land it you bad boy! Flybys only on the first trip!"

That would also be silly! I don’t think that’s what anyone has in mind though, I think this is about rearranging the tech tree so that you unlock capsules after (some) probe cores!

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Periple

[Datau03]

I actually kind of asked the first question in an AMA:

"If you can tell us, will probe stuff be before crewed in the tech tree? So are the first missions in science mode more likely gonna be uncrewed or crewed?" (Datau03, Discord)

 

And Shana Markham's answer:

Spoiler

"So....Kerbals are not people. When we're hiring a writer, I ask them a similar question, like "hey if you look at the tech tree for KSP1, crewed pods come before probes, tell me narratively why that is"

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by Datau03

[Royalswissarmyknife]

On 8/31/2023 at 12:02 AM, Superfluous J said:

I don't want those limitations to be "you can't possibly make it more than 1000m vertical but don't worry. After your first or 2nd launch you'll unlock the ability to go... wait for it... 2000m vertical!"

I also don't want those limitations to be "sure you have capsules that can house Kerbals but no you can't take them to the Mun that would be WRONG. Send a probe first and don't you dare land it you bad boy! Flybys only on the first trip!"

I smell Ksp-1 Contracts.