Take Two Interactive (Rockstar, 2K, Private Division) canceling games, ending projects and laying off 5% of its workforce

[Ryaja]

35 minutes ago, VlonaldKerman said:

I think people underestimate how much the personality and charisma of the Kerbals is responsible for the success of the game. I also feel like Juno is bland, even if it is better on paper in some or many ways.

Ya, the kerbals really make the game pop. All the others without them just feel like simulators and not games as much.

Edited May 6 by Ryaja
New page

[RileyHef]

1 hour ago, Ryaja said:

Ya, the kerbals really make the game pop.

I will go back to KSP a thousand times before playing any other space exploration/rocket simulator for this reason. They are the secret sauce that makes the game so successful.

The Kerbals represent the player and are a tool to vicariously live out unique experiences that would otherwise be impossible. They are cute and charming, but ultimately relatable as they don't appear to know anything more about rocket science than one of us might have when starting this game. In short, Kerbals provide the human element that has always been central to space exploration irl.

I think this was captured really well in the newest animation by @AnimatedK . If you haven't seen it, do so immediately (with subtitles)! From start to finish this video perfectly demonstrates the thrills, emotional connections, and nervous excitement Kerbals (and therefore, the player) can experience when discovering new frontiers or achieving once impossible feats. It's so oddly inspiring for me to see my Kerbals achieve things through my own plans and creations.

All this is to say that they don't call it "the Kerbal effect" for nothing. No further technical feats that another franchise can achieve will be able to take me away from the lightning in a bottle that is the Kerbals.

Edited May 6 by RileyHef

[Superpluto126]

On 5/4/2024 at 3:06 PM, MechBFP said:

The main issue is that Juno lack any sort of soul and (from my understanding) any sort of game play progression, which makes it quite bland from a "game" perspective.

Although they could change that, and all the power to them to do so if they want to.

The Biggest advantage Juno to me has is its procedural parts and Planet Studio, The Latter of which is the only thing I typically use. But for a game that has built in planet modding, its very limited, even to the point in which Multi-Star Systems aren't even possible because you can only have 1-Sun Light source in the game. It just doesn't have the same level of soul ksp1, and even ksp2, have gotten. You can't even switch to custom star systems in career mode.

[Uuky]

3 hours ago, Ryaja said:

Ya, the kerbals really make the game pop. All the others without them just feel like simulators and not games as much.

Definitely. KSP is also is bit less daunting imho but the Kerbals simply add life and attachment to tiny characters. 

Juno has really good approach on a lot of things, but there is no emotion as there is no character, 

[jost]

19 hours ago, Jaypeg said:

Oh thank goodness this part of the community is still nice. I saw people celebrating them losing their jobs on the reddit.

This annoyed me from the start of the whole KSP2 mess how inmature some parts of the community are. My guess is that these people are still quite young and supported by their  family.  Thus they never depended on their Job to earn their living. Instead they have a lot of time for gaming and asocial Media. 

Or like jwz phrased it:

"What group is most suspeptible to that disease (Objectivism)? Fourteen year old boys. Who's the target audience of most video games? Exactly"

( Jamie Zawinski  https://www.jwz.org/blog/2009/10/big-daddy/ )

These guys should play more bioshock

Edited May 6 by jost
Fixed typos

[K^2]

On 5/5/2024 at 1:09 AM, cocoscacao said:

Layoff doesn't mean they are leaving the office instantly.

It does. Corporations know that most people would, most generously, not do great work knowing they'll be out in a few weeks, and might even be risking sabotage. In practice, the moment the notice is served, everyone affected gets a short exit interview and are sent home. If anybody from Intercept are still working on KSP2, they have been transferred to the Private Division. Which might include a few people, but 70 people on WARN notice is at least almost everyone. So at most, a single digits of developers are now part of PD and still contributing to KSP2. More realistically, the support still being done for the game is by people who were already part of PD and have helped shipping the EA previously. (We have seen a number of engineers from PD listed on KSP2 EA credits.)

On 5/4/2024 at 5:56 AM, Pthigrivi said:

How unusual is that we’ve gotten no official word on any of this?

Not particularly, unfortunately. Take Two and Private Division gain very little from providing additional information. Better to say nothing, and have people suspect, than speak up and lose the element of doubt kind of situation.

However, if T2/PD already gave up on the game completely, I think they'd just say so. The fact that the official statement (the whole two sentences of it) suggests that KSP2 is still considered in development suggests that they're going to be looking for a new developer.

In that case, the next update will probably be telling us that a <Studio Name> has taken over the development. That could be months from now, though.

[Scarecrow71]

5 hours ago, Uuky said:

Definitely. KSP is also is bit less daunting imho but the Kerbals simply add life and attachment to tiny characters. 

Juno has really good approach on a lot of things, but there is no emotion as there is no character, 

I picked up Juno due to it being 60% off (60 freaking percent!), and I've got a couple hours into it.  And there are things I both like and don't like about it.

What I Like

Procedural parts, especially fuel tanks.  From short and thin to tall and wide, you only need 1 tank in that stage.  This cuts down on the total number of joints, as well as trying to get multiple tanks of varying sizes to mesh together.  And the game automatically knows what kind of fuel is in the tank based on the engine you attach.

I also like the tech tree.  One of the things I was vocal about and hoped for with KSP2 was moving away from science points in favor of a milestone system, and Juno has that.  You get tech points based on what you've done, not how many biomes you hop to in one flight.

What I Don't Like

The VAB (or whatever they call it in Juno) is horrid.  I like being able to orient by craft builds based on which direction I know is east, and the VAB in Juno has no points to know which way is which.  It is clunky to use, the cameras are bad, and it doesn't seem very intuitive to use.  And the icons for various sections don't make much sense.

There doesn't seem to be much incentive in the early game to go into space.  I've launched 8 or so rockets to this point, and I've gone sub orbital once.  None of the contracts I've seen yet ask you to go into orbit, instead focusing on flying in the atmosphere.  In KSP1, I'm generally in orbit by the 2nd or 3rd flight.  Perhaps it is just me, waiting to get used to the game before I just go off.  But even in KSP1 you get contracts to go orbital really fast.

[Flush Foot]

10 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I like being able to orient by craft builds based on which direction I know is east, and the VAB in Juno has no points to know which way is which

Didn't we have that problem in KSP 2 too? (I remember having trouble with orientation in the new VAB because it had no open door)

[AtomicTech]

 

10 hours ago, sturmhauke said:

Juno is ok, but it's kind of bland. Also, aircraft don't really fly well.

I just didn't like the extent of procedural parts; I'd rather have procedural tanks and structural parts, not engines and pods

[KincaidFrankMF]

10 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

A brilliant marketing move, or a very luckly coincidence for them.

Probably not a coincidence, I agree lol

10 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

I try Juno a couple times a year since buying it, and have never played it for more than an hour before setting it aside again. I don't know how much of my issues with it are "that's not how KSP does it" and how many are "okay that's objectively bad" but I just... never enjoy playing it.

I haven't tried it yet (still working through a KSP campaign) but it's still under development, so maybe they'll get the formula right eventually.

We could also be seeing something broader and much more hopeful starting to happen. KitHack expands on the theme of model-building, though not space travel. Re-Entry is a much more realistic NASA Simulator-type game for the purists. Flight of Nova is a more SF approach to space-flight-with-proper-physics. Rocketwerkz are clearly interested in making something at least KSP-adjacent... 

Something similar happened with Elite, back in the day (showing my age here lol). It took what felt like an age for sequels to come out, and they were pretty disappointing. The IP then went dark for twenty years.... but in the meantime, it inspired an entire genre of games too numerous to even list. 

Not that I'm suggesting KSP is going to be quite that influential, but still. If the IP does indeed die off, but inspires an entire genre in the process, that would be a pretty hopeful outcome, even if none of the young pretenders quite scratches the itch right now.

27 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I picked up Juno due to it being 60% off (60 freaking percent!), and I've got a couple hours into it.  And there are things I both like and don't like about it.

Thanks for the mini-review! Very helpful.

[boolybooly]

Some might find this interesting.

https://www.pcgamesn.com/indie/explosive-origin-story-kerbal-space-program-revealed

Quote

Miguel Piña (AKA Maxmaps) told the tale of Kerbal’s early days: “It all started when HarvesteR was a young guy in Brazil playing with fireworks and turning them into rockets by taking out the explosive payload and placing little tinfoil figures inside which he called Kerbals.”

 

[Fizzlebop Smith]

I don't want to Spam the link around and liquid everyone off..

But I am going to drop it in a couple threads I feel are relevant and spread to steam / reddit.

I have started a petition that I want to submit to Valve eventually. 

It requests an oversight process on EA that allows the consumer to report (specifically) a violation of EA spirit / tenants developer proposed on their EA statement.

https://www.change.org/p/steam-early-access-reform-advocating-more-oversight-accountability

(Link was Acting Up)

Edited May 6 by Fizzlebop Smith

[KincaidFrankMF]

6 hours ago, jost said:

"What group is most suspeptible to that disease (Objectivisn)? Fourteen year old boys. Who's the target audience of most video games? Exactly"

True. But oh, the gleaming future that awaits the fourteen-year-old boy playing KSP for fun...

[Scarecrow71]

1 hour ago, Flush Foot said:

Didn't we have that problem in KSP 2 too? (I remember having trouble with orientation in the new VAB because it had no open door)

We did.  Or, at least, I did at one point.  But someone pointed out how to orient myself, and now I know that when I drop a command module I have to simply hit E once, and then when I'm looking at the number 4 on the wall I'm oriented properly.

[kdaviper]

27 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

We did.  Or, at least, I did at one point.  But someone pointed out how to orient myself, and now I know that when I drop a command module I have to simply hit E once, and then when I'm looking at the number 4 on the wall I'm oriented properly.

I wish they had drawn a compass rose on the floor or had the cardinal directions indicated in the walls

[Uuky]

3 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I also like the tech tree.  One of the things I was vocal about and hoped for with KSP2 was moving away from science points in favor of a milestone system, and Juno has that.  You get tech points based on what you've done, not how many biomes you hop to in one flight.

Personnally I prefer tech trees rather than milestones but KSP ones (1 and 2) are very old school and uninteresting, it is only science points grinding and clicking. But milestones can be a good tool too and by overall Milestones and tech tree are not mutually exclusive. 

What I would have liked in KSP2 is a system blending a tech tree with milestones, crew management and agencies in order to create a space program. A space program in KSP would be awesome.

Choosing the missions should be part of strategy, a meaningfull set of choices between techs, part unlock, kerbal assignment to tasks and use of agencies. I like when all choices are meaning ful in a game.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 6 by Uuky

[Jacke]

10 hours ago, K^2 said:

Not particularly, unfortunately. Take Two and Private Division gain very little from providing additional information. Better to say nothing, and have people suspect, than speak up and lose the element of doubt kind of situation.

However, if T2/PD already gave up on the game completely, I think they'd just say so. The fact that the official statement (the whole two sentences of it) suggests that KSP2 is still considered in development suggests that they're going to be looking for a new developer.

In that case, the next update will probably be telling us that a <Studio Name> has taken over the development. That could be months from now, though.

 

I really don't have enough inside information or industry-specific experience to properly judge what is possible, what will happen.  I think @K^2 is right, if the decision to shutdown KSP completely had been made, we'd would have heard it by now.

But I think it's highly likely there's a review of all of KSP going on by an independent Subject-Matter-Expert, either a trusted individual or a small tiger-team, who will report back up to PD and Take-Two what they think is possible, in what time frame, with what cost, for what possible revenue.

I try to think about what a coldly calculating project manager assigned would decide upon reviewing what's available, what's possible, then communicate back up to their superiors about what to do with KSP.

No matter how it's cut, KSP development, as rocky as it was at times, as forced as it was at times, as buggy as it was at times, was a lot better than KSP 2.  The communication was even better.

There's no simple ways to hash it.  KSP 2 went off the rails.  I think the studio size was too large.  KSP 2 hit a lot of the problems that KSP had had, some of them worse.  It limited its market in being way more machine intensive than KSP and worse was far from optimized.  And there's questions of what issues remain in KSP 2 to fix.  Would if even be better to go back to KSP, push out an update or two to improve it, then sell a KSP 1 v2, maybe giving a discount to those who bought KSP 2 ?

I am unsure.  Except that in one way or another, KSP is now under review.  Its future is being decided.

[Skorj]

4 minutes ago, Jacke said:

I try to think about what a coldly calculating project manager assigned would decide upon reviewing what's available, what's possible, then communicate back up to their superiors about what to do with KSP.

I'm far more cynical about corporate decision making, and don't believe such an individual exists.  I believe the entire corporate decision making process for recent past, present, and future was: "Bring up the spreadsheet for the PD games.  OK, lets cut those 3, close them out.  What's next on the agenda?"

Edited May 6 by Skorj

[Jacke]

3 hours ago, Skorj said:

I'm far more cynical about corporate decision making, and don't believe such an individual exists.  I believe the entire corporate decision making process for recent past, present, and future was: "Bring up the spreadsheet for the PD games.  OK, lets cut those 3, close them out.  What's next on the agenda?"

If that was the case, they'd then would have made an action plan to shut down KSP 2 with the least cost and the least trouble.  Which means they would have likely said something to reassure the punters despite the whole thing being a wrap.

Besides, having sunk that much dosh, I'm sure the decision would have taken at least a few minutes, because good or bad, they always want to know what went wrong and how not to let that happen again.  So they'd want to have a process to find that out if it wasn't obvious.

[Overheal]

So it's COB on the West Coast and there still has been no official word to the community that clears up the dust from last week. 

Wow. 

[Scarecrow71]

So I have a question.  The financial call for TT happens on the 16th.  People here talk as if it is a public call people can listen in on.  Is that the case?  If so, how do we listen in, and at what time?

My assumption is that we can't, but that the call is made public shortly after it happens.  If someone can confirm this, I would greatly appreciate it!

[HebaruSan]

21 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

The financial call for TT happens on the 16th.  People here talk as if it is a public call people can listen in on.

I had no idea, but this page has a "WebCast Presentation" link for that call, which looks like you can just sign up and watch:

https://www.take2games.com/ir/quarterly-earnings

Fair warning: Previous calls have links for "prepared remarks," "earnings release," "investor presentation," and "earnings presentation," so this could turn out to be hazardously boring. Watch at your own risk.

Edited May 7 by HebaruSan

[magnemoe]

13 hours ago, Jacke said:

I really don't have enough inside information or industry-specific experience to properly judge what is possible, what will happen.  I think @K^2 is right, if the decision to shutdown KSP completely had been made, we'd would have heard it by now.

But I think it's highly likely there's a review of all of KSP going on by an independent Subject-Matter-Expert, either a trusted individual or a small tiger-team, who will report back up to PD and Take-Two what they think is possible, in what time frame, with what cost, for what possible revenue.

I try to think about what a coldly calculating project manager assigned would decide upon reviewing what's available, what's possible, then communicate back up to their superiors about what to do with KSP.

No matter how it's cut, KSP development, as rocky as it was at times, as forced as it was at times, as buggy as it was at times, was a lot better than KSP 2.  The communication was even better.

There's no simple ways to hash it.  KSP 2 went off the rails.  I think the studio size was too large.  KSP 2 hit a lot of the problems that KSP had had, some of them worse.  It limited its market in being way more machine intensive than KSP and worse was far from optimized.  And there's questions of what issues remain in KSP 2 to fix.  Would if even be better to go back to KSP, push out an update or two to improve it, then sell a KSP 1 v2, maybe giving a discount to those who bought KSP 2 ?

I am unsure.  Except that in one way or another, KSP is now under review.  Its future is being decided.

Note that the KSP 2 steam page is not updated. If they shut down  KSP completely, I thing they would be required to update the page. 

 

[J.Random]

Nope.

[K^2]

17 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

So I have a question.  The financial call for TT happens on the 16th.  People here talk as if it is a public call people can listen in on.  Is that the case

T2 is a publicly traded company. In general, anything they disclose to shareholders has to be public. An Earnings Call absolutely has to be public. It doesn't mean they have to stream the meeting, but they'll have to at least make the transcripts available. In practice, these are either streamed live, or the recordings are available on the company site.

Previous recordings for T2 can be found here. I do see a link for a webcast of the upcoming earnings call linked from there, so presumably, you'd be able to watch it there.