Take Two Interactive (Rockstar, 2K, Private Division) canceling games, ending projects and laying off 5% of its workforce

[PDCWolf]

5 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

How unusual is that we’ve gotten no official word on any of this?

Well, we know the community team got their layoffs handed to them. Mike mentioned "staying till june to hand off good work" or something like that, but that seems more corpo politeness than anything. If an announcement came now, it'd be directly from PD, or T2 themselves, or maybe through Nate who's rumored to have survived and now be part of PD.

1 hour ago, MARL_Mk1 said:

Isn't Take Two going to have a public meeting with shareholders or investors or something soonish? Maybe we'll hear more about this "officially" by then. (Officially, meaning through the project lead's mouth, that is.)

Shareholders don't care about "KSP2". Shareholders care about the reduction of costs, laying off 70 people and closing 2 studios (IG, Roll7) is the good news for them because it cuts down a lot of costs for a company that's been on a losing streak for the past like 7 quarters.

[Infinite Aerospace]

15 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Well, we know the community team got their layoffs handed to them. Mike mentioned "staying till june to hand off good work" or something like that, but that seems more corpo politeness than anything. If an announcement came now, it'd be directly from PD, or T2 themselves, or maybe through Nate who's rumored to have survived and now be part of PD.

Shareholders don't care about "KSP2". Shareholders care about the reduction of costs, laying off 70 people and closing 2 studios (IG, Roll7) is the good news for them because it cuts down a lot of costs for a company that's been on a losing streak for the past like 7 quarters.

The only question that matters is:

 

Does Kerbal Space Program still represent some potential value to Take Two Interactive.

 

Do they see the completion of the game as a potential profit making point, I know the feelings around the game are currently at an absolute low point. They're going to be looking further ahead than that.

 

Kerbal Space Program is a potential sleeper Game of the Year, and I'm not even being facisous. With what was planned, it's right up there with other contenders for that accolade.

 

So, is there value in the IP for Take Two Interactive?

[PDCWolf]

12 minutes ago, Infinite Aerospace said:

Does Kerbal Space Program still represent some potential value to Take Two Interactive.

The fact they closed the studio should tell you that at least the current iteration of the product doesn't. They're better off without it.

13 minutes ago, Infinite Aerospace said:

Do they see the completion of the game as a potential profit making point, I know the feelings around the game are currently at an absolute low point. They're going to be looking further ahead than that.

Clearly not. People really need to get out of the forums and discord: trust in the product was always low, sales were non existent and it had zero media traction. Calling people making reasonable criticisms (even if harsh) doomposters is just a sign of the huge disconnect with reality people on those two places have. KSP2 was never gonna reach any number close to the sales of the first, as it had a bad launch, very low expectations, and pretty much was mismatched to what the target demographic wanted.

15 minutes ago, Infinite Aerospace said:

Kerbal Space Program is a potential sleeper Game of the Year, and I'm not even being facisous. With what was planned, it's right up there with other contenders for that accolade.

No. KSP1 wasn't, KSP2 had much less chances. GOTY awards are either popularity contests (through people's votes), or "videogame critics" stroking their own egos. KSP2 wasn't popular at all, much less was it critically acclaimed, a fact easily visible by its own exclusive youtubers not even wanting to make content on the game. I'll accept any day that some people enjoyed FS! but again, get out of the forums and discord, most people didn't and found it either a repeat of 1, or a very basic feature for those who didn't care or knew 1.

17 minutes ago, Infinite Aerospace said:

So, is there value in the IP for Take Two Interactive?

No unless they get purchase offers. They put their hands in the fire with a huge investment (remember, 4 years of delays, a complete studio change, rejecting other bids, and even a downgrade into EA) and got burned. They're never touching this thing again with a 10 foot pole.

[pandaman]

From personal experience.  Albeit in UK, but it would seem a similar process is happening here.

The WARN notice in itself doesn't necessarily mean everyone is out of a job, end of...  Depending on the exact wording of course ...  It is informing everyone simultaneously and equally that they may be at risk.  Sure if it is complete closure with nobody retained then  it may well state that.  But typically each individual will then be spoken to with offers of new placements and/or severance terms etc. as appropriate.

This is fairly standard where a company want to restructure or relocate parts of the business.

So it doesn't necessarily mean development will stop.  Among other things it could mean....

A significant reduction of staff, with the remainder carrying on as before. 

And/or a relocation/reshuffle with development continuing under a new 'studio' potentially in a different location.

I doesn't in any way rule out a complete cancellation, but it doesn't mean it's a certainty either.

Whatever is happening, it is a time of uncertainty and confusion for the staff  affected, and 'official public announcements' are out of place (and possible  illegal) until all staff have some clarity on where they stand.

[MARL_Mk1]

What hurts me the most about seeing the Kerbal Space Program IP fall into the realm of abandoned ideas is that those familiar with it don't consider it just a videogame per se.

The impact this game has had on sparking interest on the spaceflight sector and the amount of people that have pursued careers and jobs on it simply because Kerbal Space Program showed up in front of them sometime during their life was enormous. 
 

Risking being proven wrong, there aren't many other pieces of media that managed to put some of the most incredibly complex topics and concepts in front of the broad public and turn them into something you can understand by approaching them and failing miserably while getting a laugh and a lesson of physics out of it.

I listened to Outro today and teared up a little. This was the project I was looking forward the most in the entire industry, no matter how long it took to flourish, because I knew that despite the final result, the community would be there to shape it on its best form.

Edited May 4 by MARL_Mk1

[Infinite Aerospace]

4 minutes ago, pandaman said:

From personal experience.  Albeit in UK, but it would seem a similar process is happening here.

The WARN notice in itself doesn't necessarily mean everyone is out of a job, end of...  Depending on the exact wording of course ...  It is informing everyone simultaneously and equally that they may be at risk.  Sure if it is complete closure with nobody retained then  it may well state that.  But typically each individual will then be spoken to with offers of new placements and/or severance terms etc. as appropriate.

This is fairly standard where a company want to restructure or relocate parts of the business.

So it doesn't necessarily mean development will stop.  Among other things it could mean....

A significant reduction of staff, with the remainder carrying on as before. 

And/or a relocation/reshuffle with development continuing under a new 'studio' potentially in a different location.

I doesn't in any way rule out a complete cancellation, but it doesn't mean it's a certainty either.

Whatever is happening, it is a time of uncertainty and confusion for the staff  affected, and 'official public announcements' are out of place (and possible  illegal) until all staff have some clarity on where they stand.

Really well put together response. Thank you for that. Where abouts in the UK might I ask do you hail from?

[dave1904]

Sorry but i cannot resist. 

 

[PDCWolf]

17 minutes ago, pandaman said:

From personal experience.  Albeit in UK, but it would seem a similar process is happening here.

The WARN notice in itself doesn't necessarily mean everyone is out of a job, end of...  Depending on the exact wording of course ...  It is informing everyone simultaneously and equally that they may be at risk.  Sure if it is complete closure with nobody retained then  it may well state that.  But typically each individual will then be spoken to with offers of new placements and/or severance terms etc. as appropriate.

This is fairly standard where a company want to restructure or relocate parts of the business.

So it doesn't necessarily mean development will stop.  Among other things it could mean....

A significant reduction of staff, with the remainder carrying on as before. 

And/or a relocation/reshuffle with development continuing under a new 'studio' potentially in a different location.

I doesn't in any way rule out a complete cancellation, but it doesn't mean it's a certainty either.

Whatever is happening, it is a time of uncertainty and confusion for the staff  affected, and 'official public announcements' are out of place (and possible  illegal) until all staff have some clarity on where they stand.

This wasn't a corporate bomb dropped on friday to let the outrage die out and come back to the moderates and bootlickers who haven't left by Monday and give them scraps to keep them happy (yes, this is why corporations give bad news on Fridays). The news of the layoffs and the WARN were posted Tuesday/Wednesday and, in the corporate world, that's already very old news.

We haven't heard anything because there's nothing to be said, it's over. They will most probably push out whatever is done till now, call it 1.0 and move on. If they wanted to keep developing the game, they wouldn't fire the people that already know the project, and if they were to give it to another studio, that'd have been decided long before the news and definitely out by now.

 

[KincaidFrankMF]

On a slightly optimistic note... (and I'm going to preface this by stating upfront that if development of KSP2 does by some miracle continue, albeit at a slower pace, I'll be here - I'll be as patient as necessary) KSP isn't the completely unique game it once was. Juno does exist now. I haven't played it myself (because, y'know, lil green dudes) but I've watched reviews by the likes of Scott Manley and it looks promising. It's not KSP, but it doesn't look a million miles away either, it's cheap and it sounds like it's progressing well? So all isn't lost.

If herds of disconsolate KSP players are indeed left roaming the internet in search of a new home, it's hard to imagine that a mod won't appear at some point turning the astronauts green and producing a star system uncannily like Kerbol...

[Codraroll]

After a couple of days of pondering the bad news, one thing keeps really bugging me.

Why did KSP2 end up like a graphically souped-up version of KSP1?

I mean, the main reason why anybody would buy a sequel to a game they already own, is because the sequel features exciting new content, or at least does something better or at least different. A new world to explore, new fun mechanics, new gameplay elements ... something must be new for players to invest more of their money on a product similar to the one they already own. Even if it is something as marginal as whatever EA does to their licensed football games every year. Novelty is the key to engagement.

But as far as I can tell, as a reluctant consumer who decided to wait and see with KSP2, the game has ended up as a better-looking, but ultimately inferior copy of the first game. It features the same planets, the same gameplay loop, the same mechanics ... except for being a buggy and unstable mess. It has better visuals that require a beefier computer to run, but lacks a draw compared to its predecessor. As a consumer, I look at what's offered and ask myself "why should I want to buy this?" It appears to offer nothing more than I could already do with KSP1, except bugs and performance issues. It appears to feature the same world, explored in the same way. I was waiting for some novelty to hook me and drag me in, but it just never happened.

Funny thing is, the people who marketed the game seem to have understood this. Look at the initial announcement trailer. It features new technologies. Never-before-seen ship parts. Orbital construction yards above the clouds of Juno. New planets. Colonies.  Multiplayer.The people who made that trailer understood that they needed to show off things KSP1 couldn't do.

But all those years later, precisely none of it came to fruition. The developers never got further than trying to make a KSP1 copy work. None of the features we were waiting for were implemented. Or for that matter, featured in the development updates. The whole fan base sat waiting for news on the new star systems, new mechanics, new stuff, and what they showed was "here's the daily life of the community manager" and "look, we made exhaust plumes nicer!" Sure, there were interesting visualizations of how features like drag or heat build-up worked, but I doubt anybody held out their purchase waiting for a more detailed heat management system.

Sure, those new features were always on the roadmap. The concepts were frequently discussed on the "some day, in the finished game" level. But we never saw any sign of their implementation (which, in hindsight, invites a few "interesting" conclusions ...). For whatever reason, they never got as far as letting us play with any new toys in this game. What was actually in the game strikes me as less than what was in KSP1. If that sentiment is common, it's no wonder nobody bought it.

Even putting a new planet in the Kerbol system would have been a decent first taste of that sequel feeling. Just swap out Juno and its moons for Sarnus, or something like that. Mechanically, it wouldn't be anything different than the planets that were already there, but it would add some much-needed novelty to justify buying a sequel. But they never got around to that. It seems like the development priority was all about creating a stable copy of KSP1 in the KSP2 engine first, then expanding later. Perhaps that's the "correct" and tidy way of doing something like this, but a KSP1 copy isn't going to draw any customers who are interested in more than KSP1. Even something as nice as volumetric clouds is ultimately just garnish on the same, boring dish. I really can't understand how they chose to disregard the important concept of novelty for so long. Sure, adding new planets or features wouldn't do anything to get the game finished faster, but it would potentially have drawn more customers to keep the game funded during development.

[MechBFP]

1 minute ago, KincaidFrankMF said:

On a slightly optimistic note... (and I'm going to preface this by stating upfront that if development of KSP2 does by some miracle continue, albeit at a slower pace, I'll be here - I'll be as patient as necessary) KSP isn't the completely unique game it once was. Juno does exist now. I haven't played it myself (because, y'know, lil green dudes) but I've watched reviews by the likes of Scott Manley and it looks promising. It's not KSP, but it doesn't look a million miles away either, it's cheap and it sounds like it's progressing well? So all isn't lost.

If herds of disconsolate KSP players are indeed left roaming the internet in search of a new home, it's hard to imagine that a mod won't appear at some point turning the astronauts green and producing a star system uncannily like Kerbol...

The main issue is that Juno lack any sort of soul and (from my understanding) any sort of game play progression, which makes it quite bland from a "game" perspective.

Although they could change that, and all the power to them to do so if they want to.

[KincaidFrankMF]

2 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

The main issue is that Juno lack any sort of soul and (from my understanding) any sort of game play progression, which makes it quite bland from a "game" perspective.

Yeah, that was my impression too, but they've added a career mode & tech tree now, which sounds promising. Still seems to be actively under development, though I don't think it's technically classed as EA.

Erm, and it appears to be 60% off right now and cheaper than buying a pair of KSP2's shoelaces. I seem to have talked myself into buying it. Oops.

[Jacke]

53 minutes ago, MARL_Mk1 said:

What hurts me the most about seeing the Kerbal Space Program IP fall into the realm of abandoned ideas is that those familiar with it don't consider it just a videogame per se.

It hurts now that the likely future for KSP is a large risk of sliding into corporate-owned abandonware.

The person I really feel sorry for is @HarvesteR.  The Kerbals and Kerbal Space Program was his creation, his child.

This is a woulda-coulda-shoulda.  It may not have been really possible, but in an ideal world, he should have licenced Kerbals and the title Kerbal Space Program to Squad.  With some personal oversight on their use.  And right of refusal and full control on any transfer of that licence to another party.  So that the author kept control.  But in this world, this may not have been possible.

Never sell your dreams.  Licence them, carefully.

[Bej Kerman]

13 minutes ago, Jacke said:

This is a woulda-coulda-shoulda.  It may not have been really possible, but in an ideal world, he should have licenced Kerbals and the title Kerbal Space Program to Squad.  With some personal oversight on their use.  And right of refusal and full control on any transfer of that licence to another party.  So that the author kept control.  But in this world, this may not have been possible.

It definitely would not have been possible. In late 2010 when he was hired, HarvesteR basically didn't exist and SQUAD didn't even do software, so I highly doubt they would have taken a license from one of their own workers that said "you can help develop this game for me in an industry you're not present in, but I can revoke it at any time", or any company for that matter. 

[Westinghouse]

40 minutes ago, Jacke said:

The person I really feel sorry for is @HarvesteR.  The Kerbals and Kerbal Space Program was his creation, his child.

Why feel sorry for him? His reputation is sky-high right now.
It's been proven beyond doubt that he could successfully build something that an entire studio of professional game developers couldn't match. He also has his own new game, something that is set to make him financially very wealthy (there's no way he will have made the same ownership and licensing mistakes he made with Squad)

[Skorj]

1 hour ago, Codraroll said:

After a couple of days of pondering the bad news, one thing keeps really bugging me.

Why did KSP2 end up like a graphically souped-up version of KSP1?

I mean, the main reason why anybody would buy a sequel to a game they already own, is because the sequel features exciting new content, or at least does something better or at least different. A new world to explore, new fun mechanics, new gameplay elements ... something must be new for players to invest more of their money on a product similar to the one they already own. Even if it is something as marginal as whatever EA does to their licensed football games every year. Novelty is the key to engagement.

The logical first step for KSP2 development was to re-write the core of KSP1, replacing the fundamental design mistakes in the physics engine with something that would be robust and scale to large craft.  Nate even said they had done that as the starting point, back in 2019 or so.  Once that is solid you start adding new content.  It's clear now they didn't even finish the first step. 

My personal theory is that Nate was telling the truth at the time: ST built a solid foundation for KSP2, that IP was lost with the shuffle to IG, and the talent was no longer there to re-create it.  But maybe that's overly optimistic of me and they simply never finished the first small project in 7 years of work.

[boolybooly]

28 minutes ago, Westinghouse said:

... He also has his own new game... 

Goes by the name of KitHack Model Club, FKA Balsa, because he used to like making models as a boy, which was really where KSP came from.

Have to say KSP was a great contribution to health and safety since a game about rocketry is a lot safer than the real thing especially the amateur hobby. Countless kitchens and garden sheds would not exist today were it not for KSP, I feel sure. We owe him much.

[Codraroll]

36 minutes ago, Skorj said:

The logical first step for KSP2 development was to re-write the core of KSP1, replacing the fundamental design mistakes in the physics engine with something that would be robust and scale to large craft.  Nate even said they had done that as the starting point, back in 2019 or so.  Once that is solid you start adding new content.  It's clear now they didn't even finish the first step. 

My personal theory is that Nate was telling the truth at the time: ST built a solid foundation for KSP2, that IP was lost with the shuffle to IG, and the talent was no longer there to re-create it.  But maybe that's overly optimistic of me and they simply never finished the first small project in 7 years of work.

It's the logical approach in terms of workflow, yes, but I think the lack of anything "new" really hampered the sales potential of KSP2. It made players feel they wouldn't miss out on anything by waiting until the sequel got better, since the first game had the same setting and gameplay. So a lot of potential buyers just sat this one out, hampering the revenue flow and limiting their ability to fund the development. I think they would have benefited a lot by making relatively superficial changes, like changing some of the planets in the Kerbin system, to give people a reason to buy the game.

But I guess they realized that too late, and had committed themselves to building the foundation first, before spending any dev time on new features. Then that process hit one major snag after another, and they were left with a game that was not quite KSP1 that they couldn't add anything to, and a severely demotivated fan base.

I'm beginning to suspect that they had painted themselves too far into a corner to be able to save the game in any case. That something had to be re-done again on a fundamental level to permit the inclusion of other solar systems, or multiplayer, or colonies. Essentially, that no amount of polishing the current product would allow them to realize the visions of the announcement trailer. Because I certainly am not getting the vibe that they were anywhere close to figuring out the technical details of implementing those features.

[Skorj]

3 hours ago, pandaman said:

From personal experience.  Albeit in UK, but it would seem a similar process is happening here.

The WARN notice in itself doesn't necessarily mean everyone is out of a job, end of...  Depending on the exact wording of course ...  It is informing everyone simultaneously and equally that they may be at risk.  Sure if it is complete closure with nobody retained then  it may well state that.  But typically each individual will then be spoken to with offers of new placements and/or severance terms etc. as appropriate.

WARN notices are not ambiguous (which is the point of the law).  The WARN notice is for an office closure and the layoff of 70 people, which is about the size of the IG team.  So, some specific individuals at IG might be given relocation offers or some other way to move within PD, but almost everyone is gone. 

3 hours ago, pandaman said:

Whatever is happening, it is a time of uncertainty and confusion for the staff  affected, and 'official public announcements' are out of place (and possible  illegal) until all staff have some clarity on where they stand.

Mass layoffs are almost never done across multiple days.  Everyone knows on the same day.  However, sometimes a company doesn't have their act together, and that day lags a bit from the public discovering the layoff (or has a panic layoff, then another round a few weeks later, but that's not this case) . Since a few ex-employees have made their layoff public, we know it's done.  Lack of a public announcement to clarify the situation to the customers is a baffling absence.

If there was a future for the game, we likely would have heard by now.  I'd assume that we'll get the minimum of support work (bugfixes) needed for EU legal compliance and that's it.  If they really do have a plan for future feature work, the lack of communication has already doomed that plan, as the recent Steam reviews are now Overwhelmingly Negative.  

[Skorj]

4 hours ago, Codraroll said:

It's the logical approach in terms of workflow, yes, but I think the lack of anything "new" really hampered the sales potential of KSP2. It made players feel they wouldn't miss out on anything by waiting until the sequel got better, since the first game had the same setting and gameplay. So a lot of potential buyers just sat this one out, hampering the revenue flow and limiting their ability to fund the development. I think they would have benefited a lot by making relatively superficial changes, like changing some of the planets in the Kerbin system, to give people a reason to buy the game.

But I guess they realized that too late, and had committed themselves to building the foundation first, before spending any dev time on new features. Then that process hit one major snag after another, and they were left with a game that was not quite KSP1 that they couldn't add anything to, and a severely demotivated fan base.

I'm beginning to suspect that they had painted themselves too far into a corner to be able to save the game in any case. That something had to be re-done again on a fundamental level to permit the inclusion of other solar systems, or multiplayer, or colonies. Essentially, that no amount of polishing the current product would allow them to realize the visions of the announcement trailer. Because I certainly am not getting the vibe that they were anywhere close to figuring out the technical details of implementing those features.

I believe the whole roadmap was supposed to be done in 3 years of dev time - plenty of time for a team this big.  After 6 years they had not even step 1.  The problem wasn't doing the foundation first, it was moving at 1/10th speed.  It's not like they planned to ship with no new content, they didn't even plan of an EA release, it's just that's all they had when Take2 ran out of patience.

Heck, I think the game could have been successful without anything new on EA release. Had it been a perfectly bug-free KSP1 with modern graphics and mod support, modders would have been all over it with tons of content,  and new content from the dev team would have been gravy. 

But yeah, the fact they apparently had to re-do anything to add the planned roadmap features is just a terrible sign.  Bugs and performance issue aside, what on earth were they doing all those years?

Edited May 5 by Skorj

[pandaman]

11 hours ago, Infinite Aerospace said:

Really well put together response. Thank you for that. Where abouts in the UK might I ask do you hail from?

Nottingham 

[Infinite Aerospace]

I've gotta ask, if Intercept Games is no more, Kerbal Space Program development has stopped and the game is dead.........who is updating the development branches? Going by the Steam DB there's been numerous updates to numerous branches (one yesterday to a branch titled 'Voyager'). Whilst I'm not reading too much into what that does or doesn't mean, it's certainly interesting.

16 minutes ago, pandaman said:

Nottingham 

Ah, Robin Hood country. 

[Pulstar]

4 hours ago, Skorj said:

 Had it been a perfectly bug-free KSP1 with modern graphics and mod support, modders would have been all over it with tons of content,  and new content from the dev team would have been gravy.

In addition the price should have been lower and the system requirements also.

The launch was a perfect storm that severely damaged public perception. And this is before factoring in a big publisher using early access and the feature list/roadmap that also didn't win hearts and minds. Sadly KSP2 will become a case study on how to not manage game brands.

[cocoscacao]

1 hour ago, Infinite Aerospace said:

...who is updating the development branches?

Layoff doesn't mean they are leaving the office instantly. There's probably a few weeks leeway. 

[Uuky]

1 hour ago, Infinite Aerospace said:

I've gotta ask, if Intercept Games is no more, Kerbal Space Program development has stopped and the game is dead.........who is updating the development branches? Going by the Steam DB there's been numerous updates to numerous branches (one yesterday to a branch titled 'Voyager'). Whilst I'm not reading too much into what that does or doesn't mean, it's certainly interesting.

It means the project is still alive. Until further notice.  That's all. 

For the branch name,  it can be anything. At least it isn't "Titanic" which would have been worrying.