Take 2 earnings call documentation...

[Fizzlebop Smith]

HarvestR made one of the best point for what should have been Kerbal : Colonies Edition. You start on another planet stranded ... and build your first colony.

Collect resources and move on.

Start Small and Scale. I think the scope out the gate was just too large for an EA title and this game was planned as a Full Release all along.

The EA alpha state would be my best supporting argument to illustrate 

Those people on the administrative positions saw the writing on the wall and wanted to recover some of their multi year development expense while getting to gauge then potential reception.

 

[K33N]

16 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

Just for context, T2 also laid off every employee of "2K Marin". But never closed the studio. The studio has been open for 11 years making no games and employing 0 people.

This is the only piece of information of value in the entire thread.

The copium is just uncomfortable at this point. 

[Observe]

25 minutes ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

HarvestR made one of the best point for what should have been Kerbal : Colonies Edition. You start on another planet stranded ... and build your first colony.

I agree with that idea. One thing that bothered me about KSP2, was that it uses the same Kerbol solar system, which I've explored in entirety multiple times with KSP1. When I first heard about KSP2, I guess I just assumed that they would create a different solar system with fresh planets to intrigue the existing player base.

[Scarecrow71]

57 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Which is redundant because KSP already has planes and ridiculous because he'd be trying to sell "build little planes and fly them around" to an audience that was sold on "fly rockets around and learn the beautiful intricacy of orbital mechanics", but go on.

That has to be the worst argument for not having a prequel game I've ever heard.  By that logic, no prequel game is valid or has a point; they are all redundant because the game(s) they lead up to already have that included, so there's no point.  Assassin's Creed, Batman, Contra, Castlevania (just to name a few).  All the prequel games are redundant because parts of those games are in the ones they are prequels to.

 

 

[Bej Kerman]

42 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Assassin's Creed, Batman, Contra, Castlevania (just to name a few).  All the prequel games are redundant because parts of those games are in the ones they are prequels to.

Bad examples, those games have stories that complement the previous ones. Come up with an example of a sandbox game that benefitted from having its best thing taken out.

[Dinlink]

2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Which is redundant because KSP already has planes and ridiculous because he'd be trying to sell "build little planes and fly them around" to an audience that was sold on "fly rockets around and learn the beautiful intricacy of orbital mechanics", but go on.

... And that's where you are wrong. KSP has an oversimplified, terrible experience on airplane building and aerodynamics... it doesn't go even close to the "beautiful intricacy" that you can enjoy for orbital mechanics...

A prequel would have made sense to further develop the lore of the Kerbal world, and bring a better, more physically accurate, enjoyable (with all the beautiful intricacies) aerodynamics... so often simplified and disregarded...

[Bej Kerman]

2 minutes ago, Dinlink said:

... And that's where you are wrong. KSP has an oversimplified, terrible experience on airplane building and aerodynamics... it doesn't go even close to the "beautiful intricacy" that you can enjoy for orbital mechanics...

Ferram and procedural parts. It's a simple fix (goodness knows why the original team never bothered implementing either into stock) and makes a lot more sense than dedicating an entire prequel to a relatively inconsequential aspect of the original.

[Dinlink]

3 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Ferram and procedural parts. It's a simple fix (goodness knows why the original team never bothered implementing either into stock) and makes a lot more sense than dedicating an entire prequel to a relatively inconsequential aspect of the original.

Ferram is not a simple fix... It improves aerodynamics at the cost of making the understanding of aerodynamics a worst experience... don't get me wrong, I can't play KSP without Ferram, and i love the improved physics, but the interface and the player experience is deteriorated... The opposite is true for orbital mechanics, the greatest achievement of KSP: making orbital mechanics enjoyable without oversimplifying it...

And of course, on the original, Aerodynamics and plane building is an almost "inconsequential aspect", and for that very reason, a prequel that would make that aspect consequential would worth it.

[Fizzlebop Smith]

A planes before probes would totally work.. I love setting bon voyage to have rovers crawl the biomes of kerbin while I fly planes about. 

I also heavily enjoy a probes first approach and think it would tie in well to the vanilla level of KSP1 starting tech.

Maybe a few stations around kerbin or Munar exploration would be the limit.

Late level tech reveals another planet floating off out beyond the Mun. Strictly kerbins SOI or done well enough on the physics Sims and stick to atmo.

 

I'd buy it anyway bc it would be reasonably priced and probably fun. I love kerbals.

Edited May 18 by Fizzlebop Smith

[Skorj]

12 hours ago, The Aziz said:

speculation

Are you being pedantic about "laid everyone off" and "laid almost everyone off"?  Because we know they are laying off a number of people in Seattle about equal to the whole Seattle team.  Sure, there may be a few survivors who find work elsewhere in T2, but the IG office is gone and 70 people are laid off, per the WARN notice.

[herbal space program]

6 hours ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

HarvestR made one of the best point for what should have been Kerbal : Colonies Edition. You start on another planet stranded ... and build your first colony.

Collect resources and move on.

Start Small and Scale. I think the scope out the gate was just too large for an EA title and this game was planned as a Full Release all along.

I understand his basic reasoning, and I think you could perhaps have marketed that as a separate title with some vague future promises of integrating it with the original, but I also think that approach (if called "KSP2") would have had just as many detractors as the current one, due to a failure to incorporate the physics simulation that made KSP1 so fun in the first place. It's actually a very tough kind of judgment call to make IMO.

15 minutes ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

A planes before probes would totally work.. I love setting bon voyage to have rovers crawl the biomes of kerbin while I fly planes about. 

Now that I can totally agree on! I would have loved it if some expansion of the KSP universe had included an option to start your tech tree at the dawn of aviation rather than at the beginning of the space age.

 

 

[Skorj]

9 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

He says it in the part of the interview where he talks about what he'd have done for a sequel.

The point of this discussion is that someone said HarvesteR (again, the person whose idea of a KSP successor is to take something he added to it, the SPH, and remove everything else that gave it appeal) would make a good job out of KSP 2 without a modicum of evidence that he wouldn't suck at it. The burden of evidence does not lie on me. 

When talking about a KSP2, he suggests doing the colonies part working first, not doing it to exclusion of the physics.  What we got is a buggy mess with physics problems and nothing new added to the genre.  With Felipe's plan we would likely have gotten a buggy mess with physics problems and a working colony system, and so we'd have a reason to play the game instead of KSP1 or Juno.

7 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

You mean like him saying he wants to do Kerbal Space Program without space?

He's a solo dev who has only shown two games, one being a broken first attempt at a space sim whose popularity largely rests on a lack of accessible space simulators and the other being a rather considerable step backwards in ambition, and frankly saying he'd have done a good job with KSP 2 is nothing but blind faith.

 

6 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Which is redundant because KSP already has planes and ridiculous because he'd be trying to sell "build little planes and fly them around" to an audience that was sold on "fly rockets around and learn the beautiful intricacy of orbital mechanics", but go on.

Lots of people enjoy KSP1 for the planes.  It's a big chunk of the game's appeal.  Maybe you only enjoy it for the rockets, and that's fine, but the game has a broader audience than just the rocket sim fans.  It's a very accessible "design and fly your own plane" sim. 

With the planes as a stand-alone game, more effort could be given to tutorializing that aspect, so that Ferram Aerospace could be integrated and players could work up to the added complexity.  I think it would be fun. 

[Fizzlebop Smith]

8 minutes ago, herbal space program said:

I understand his basic reasoning, and I think you could perhaps have marketed that as a separate title with some vague future promises of integrating it with the original, but I also think that approach (if called "KSP2") would have had just as many detractors as the current one, due to a failure to incorporate the physics simulation that made KSP1 so fun in the first place. It's actually a very tough kind of judgment call to make IMO.

Now that I can totally agree on! I would have loved it if some expansion of the KSP universe had included an option to start your tech tree at the dawn of aviation rather than at the beginning of the space age.

 

 

My stance after playing for science & seeing the general direction of marketing .. they shouldn't have called it KSP2 but branded a slightly different game geared at colonies.

All of the marketing is emphasizing this content  that to me was only part of what I was wanting.

I really wanted to build some insane juggernaut generational ships.. I really really though there would have been a much more robust foundation for a KSP2 game.. ton properly earn that sequel tag

Again this is just my POV , but I wanted to cclarify that I think calling it KSP2 is part of the muck up.

KSP: Interstellar .. Colonies. I don't know. And scope was just so huge.. 2 extra systems that could have easily been DLC

 

[m4inbrain]

7 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Ferram and procedural parts. It's a simple fix (goodness knows why the original team never bothered implementing either into stock) and makes a lot more sense than dedicating an entire prequel to a relatively inconsequential aspect of the original.

I like this argument. Does that just apply to prequels, or does that work for sequels too? Because to be clear, even a feature complete KSP2 doesn't offer much over modded KSP1. Indeed, some parts (life support etc) are missing.

Do you agree that KSP2 as a sequel is entirely pointless?

[modus]

16 hours ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

HarvestR made one of the best point for what should have been Kerbal : Colonies Edition. You start on another planet stranded ... and build your first colony.

Collect resources and move on.

Kind of like Space Engineers with KSP on top. I'd totally dig that.

[whatsEJstandfor]

On 5/16/2024 at 7:18 PM, PDCWolf said:

Just for context, T2 also laid off every employee of "2K Marin". But never closed the studio. The studio has been open for 11 years making no games and employing 0 people.

lmao I had never heard this story. This is incredible. I'm kinda wondering how this doesn't count as lying to investors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2K_Marin

[Kerbart]

On 5/17/2024 at 3:35 PM, Bej Kerman said:

Bad examples, those games have stories that complement the previous ones. Come up with an example of a sandbox game that benefitted from having its best thing taken out.

Opinions vary on what the best part of KSP is though. Is it spaceflight? I'm not convinced Juno is worse. Yet we like KSP a lot more. Because of the Kerbals? That's what Felipe's prequel was hinged on.

I remember one game, albeit it not a sandbox game, where the sequel took out what made part 1 so well acclaimed: stunning graphics, even the good story line. The second game had none of that. Yet it was even a bigger success, considered ground breaking for a whole new genre of games.

Such a prequel—assuming it would meet sales expectations—would lay the foundations for a true franchise of KSP games, while functioning as a live-testing lab for high performance physics and graphics from the ground up (what we see in Kitbash) and serve as a stepping stone towards "back to space" with KSP3.

All of this is speculation and wishful thinking but the one thing that made an impression on me in the Matt Lowne interview was that Felipe is much more a game designer than most of us think (and less a dude who stumbled across hacking together a great game). And I trust his instincts more than those of Nate who's using corporate speak like "new player on-boarding" and hasn't shown a single shred of imagination in how the new game should differ from KSP1

[Bej Kerman]

18 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

Opinions vary on what the best part of KSP is though. Is it spaceflight? I'm not convinced Juno is worse. Yet we like KSP a lot more. Because of the Kerbals? That's what Felipe's prequel was hinged on.

Is your point that KSP's best aspect isn't spaceflight because Juno could be better?

21 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

Such a prequel—assuming it would meet sales expectations—would lay the foundations for a true franchise of KSP games, while functioning as a live-testing lab for high performance physics and graphics from the ground up (what we see in Kitbash) and serve as a stepping stone towards "back to space" with KSP3.

You mean Kitbash is a good stepping stone to interstellar? Because it does nothing different from KSP 1 except the planes are small and you're flying around a far less impressive level on a far smaller scale.

I'm fairly confident this is just wishful thinking to justify HarvesteR's ideas being mediocre.

[K^2]

1 hour ago, whatsEJstandfor said:

lmao I had never heard this story. This is incredible. I'm kinda wondering how this doesn't count as lying to investors.

Honestly? Somebody could probably apply pressure via an SEC complaint, but I'm not sure their investors care about that.

Some of the "We will not elaborate further," replies during the Q&A session of the earnings call can probably be argued to be in violation of the insider trading laws. The argument to be made is that it is information that would impact stock prices, and T2 leadership being stock-owners themselves have an unfair advantage in regards to trading compared to the general public, since they do know the true situation of these studios and the projects they were previously in charge of.

If anyone has T2 stock (possibly as part of your 401k), you can try filing an investor complaint with the SEC, but the details are entirely over my head, so maybe run it by somebody who understands the regulations a little better first.

[Scarecrow71]

46 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

You mean Kitbash is a good stepping stone to interstellar?

I am pretty sure @Kerbart mentioned KitHack is testing out physics that could be expanded upon and applied to spaceflight, not that KitHack is a spaceflight sim or that it's a stepping stone to interstellar.  It's a stone to get to decent physics, and that's the context (IMO) that Kerbart was trying to get across.

[Bej Kerman]

2 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I am pretty sure @Kerbart mentioned KitHack is testing out physics that could be expanded upon and applied to spaceflight, not that KitHack is a spaceflight sim or that it's a stepping stone to interstellar.  It's a stone to get to decent physics, and that's the context (IMO) that Kerbart was trying to get across.

And has Kitbash helped figure out how to make crafts with thousands of parts run well while colonies run in the background? No, of course not.

[Scarecrow71]

9 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

And has Kitbash helped figure out how to make crafts with thousands of parts run well while colonies run in the background? No, of course not.

Well, KitHack hasn't been around all that long, so I'd be surprised it they solved a problem in months that KSP1 couldn't solve in more than a decade.  But, you know, you just keep on bashing on something for not solving that problem instantly.  

[PDCWolf]

10 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

And has Kitbash helped figure out how to make crafts with thousands of parts run well while colonies run in the background? No, of course not.

Yes. Big part of that is the handling of non-owned vessels in multiplayer, to make the physics of N-parts aircraft manageable in a game that allows you to shoot off every single part individually. The solution they found "sacrifices" wobble (lol) amongst other stuff, to make offloaded vessels a single integrated part, but keeps the capacity to calculate hits and damage to individual parts. It's very probably an iteration of the KSP1 proto-vessel method. Mind you all vessels are still able to grab fuel/battery from their containers correctly.

Like really, at this point you're just throwing vitriol around with zero knowledge of what you talk about. You hate HarvesteR and KSP1? fine. But don't try to pass your hate as anything more but your personal views.

 

[Lisias]

48 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Yes. Big part of that is the handling of non-owned vessels in multiplayer, to make the physics of N-parts aircraft manageable in a game that allows you to shoot off every single part individually. The solution they found "sacrifices" wobble (lol) amongst other stuff, to make offloaded vessels a single integrated part, but keeps the capacity to calculate hits and damage to individual parts. It's very probably an iteration of the KSP1 proto-vessel method. Mind you all vessels are still able to grab fuel/battery from their containers correctly.

Not only that. the rigid bodies are deformable, and so (besides consolidating all parts into a single rigid body, as done by Juno), the thing still deforms under stress, literally replacing what we know as wobble on KSP for something... just better.

Edited May 21 by Lisias
unnecessary - but still mandatory :D - link

[TLTay]

3 hours ago, whatsEJstandfor said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2K_Marin

Wow. It's even the same executive doing the same thing with words. If that's not the final nail in the coffin, I don't know what is.

See y'all if any other news comes about, but I guess it's time for me to quit kicking this dead horse. Hopefully the remaining hopefuls can come to terms with it in their own way on their own schedule.