One month and counting

[Bej Kerman]

3 hours ago, ColdJ said:

3 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

There's no fixing KSP 1.

Are you a programmer that has gone in and tried?

Am I a programmer who has tried, or am I a programmer who has tried and succeeded? Because I doubt there's any of the latter anywhere.

[snip]

Edited June 8 by Vanamonde

[Lisias]

3 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

There's no fixing KSP 1.

[snip]

There're are years of fixes and workarounds made by 3rd parties, most of the fixes due absolutely silly mistakes that were made on code that, frankly, only survived for so many years because there was absolutely no due process to properly handle regressions, with the people responsible dismissing them  alegging exactly what you are alleging.

There's no point to hunt bugs if they are not fixed because the idiot that called the shots just dismisses the bug reports as "there's no fixing KSP".

And once the bugs pile up, things start to get hairy because you build new code over bad code, and fixing the bad code will break the new code. And then, finally, you get near the point in which fixing things became expensive.

I'm following (and even working around) these pesky silly mistakes that played havoc on the game for years already, and I had tracked them down to the KSP release they were introduced in all cases. And I affirm without the slightest doubt that the bugs that rendered KSP "unfixable" (please note the quotes) were introduced by the very people that claimed KSP were unfixable.

This is a fact. That are being double checked as people decide to play older versions of KSP and suddenly realises they have less bugs than the newer.

[snip]

Edited June 8 by Vanamonde
Forum bit me. Fixing triple posting that by luck were merged.

[Bej Kerman]

[snip]

Then show me a build of the game that's been fixed.

2 hours ago, Lisias said:

I'm following (and even working around) these pesky silly mistakes that played havoc on the game for years already, and I had tracked them down to the KSP release they were introduced in all cases. And I affirm without the slightest doubt that the bugs that rendered KSP "unfixable" (please note the quotes) were introduced by the very people that claimed KSP were unfixable.

Means nothing and complaining about said "very people that claimed KSP [is] unfixable" doesn't get you any closer to proving it's fixable.

[snip]

Edited June 8 by Vanamonde

[Vanamonde]

Lots of personal remarks removed. You might be mad about game news but none of that is the fault of your fellow forum members so please don't attack each other over it. 

[Stephensan]

3 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

There's no fixing KSP 1

yup, refixing would pretty much mean do what ksp 2 did without adding anything visually or mechaniclly

[Infinite Aerospace]

KSP1 runs pretty well considering the 'messy' nature of the code. It's like Starship's flap, messed up but still functioning.

[Scarecrow71]

21 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

doesn't get you any closer to proving it's fixable.

Ok, so prove that it isn't.  No, the argument "Well, Squad sold the game and nobody is developing it any longer" doesn't fly.  We aren't talking about whether it was fixed or not, but rather whether it IS fixable or not.  So, I'd like to hear your argument as to why it isn't fixable.  Keep in mind that we know you don't have access to the code, nor are you (as far as I am aware, and I could be wrong here) a game developer.

So, prove it.  Prove that it isn't fixable.

[Stephensan]

34 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

  So, I'd like to hear your argument as to why it isn't fixable.

it is "fixable" but it would require refactoring ksp 1 code, which would require engineers, which costs a considerable amount of money... just like around the amount of the very first initial cost of ksp 2, around 10-20 million dollars in total for proper engineers to "fix" ksp 1 code.. The community can do it themselves but for a proper fixing would require refactoring the code.

This would remove most kraken drives, and may improve performance, but will require money to do, unless the community will be willing to do it themselves, without the source code nor help from developer(s).

 

KSP 2 has already done the refactoring, regardless of how bad the game may or may not be, but most players are allergic to hearing that due to its performance issues, and small bugs, as if ksp 1 wasn't in the same boat if it was the same age as ksp 2.

 

it isn't that its not "fixable" its more so putting the time and effort "fixing" the game would not make ksp 1 gain more income nor a larger playerbase for the company that owns ksp,  while there is a project that is already mid-development that is getting canned, that has already done the refactoring, and also adding "reasons" to buy it.. which just fixing the code of ksp 1 will not add nor do, be the same exact experience but under the hood its different.

That will also break most mods that ksp 1 has and would require modders to even refactor there own code to make it work in this ksp 1 "fixed" code. Then the modders would probably want a modding API to help make there mods easier to make.

It will be the same case that ksp 2 is dealing with right now.

"i already can get pretty much the same exact experience here on ksp 1". and little to no purchases will be made, because the push to something that is worse in some hands, but much better in the other hands is to much..

[Lisias]

7 minutes ago, Stephensan said:

it is "fixable" but it would require refactoring ksp 1 code, which would require engineers, which costs a considerable amount of money...

There're alternatives, field proven and demonstrably effective.

And, perhaps, their best shot at this point.

Disclaimer: I'm not implying it will be easy, neither that it doesn't have it's share of risks - Open Source is a development model, not a panacea that will fix all the illness in the World.

[Scarecrow71]

51 minutes ago, Stephensan said:

it is "fixable" but it would require refactoring ksp 1 code,

Well, my point is that Bej continues to say it isn't fixable, but continues to not provide any information, sources, or proof that it isn't.  So I am asking them explicitly to identify why they think it isn't fixable, with any applicable proof they may have.

[Lisias]

6 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Well, my point is that Bej continues to say it isn't fixable, but continues to not provide any information, sources, or proof that it isn't.  So I am asking them explicitly to identify why they think it isn't fixable, with any applicable proof they may have.

Worst, they do it blatantly ignoring evidences, real life evidences (almost proves) that they are wrong.

[Bej Kerman]

39 minutes ago, Lisias said:

Worst, they do it blatantly ignoring evidences, real life evidences (almost proves) that they are wrong.

If you have proof it can be fixed, show it.

Edited June 9 by Bej Kerman

[Scarecrow71]

3 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

If you have proof it can be fixed, show it.

Well, we are all still waiting on you to provide your proof that it isn't.

To be clear:  I'm not saying it is, and I'm not saying it isn't.  I can code, but not to the depth that would be required for this game.

So, you first.  Where is your proof?

[Bej Kerman]

1 hour ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Well, we are all still waiting on you to provide your proof that it isn't.

To be clear:  I'm not saying it is, and I'm not saying it isn't.  I can code, but not to the depth that would be required for this game.

So, you first.  Where is your proof?

The burden of evidence isn't on me. I'm not the one who asserted first that KSP 1 is just "poorly tended", and I've yet to see any fruits come from the armchair computer scientists (see: modders) talking big about how they could completely fix the game if given the opportunity.

[Lisias]

26 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

The burden of evidence isn't on me. I'm not the one who asserted first that KSP 1 is just "poorly tended", and I've yet to see any fruits come from the armchair computer scientists (see: modders) talking big about how they could completely fix the game if given the opportunity.

Yes, it is. You are the one claiming KSP can't be fixed.

[Infinite Aerospace]

Folks, the whole can't be fixed, can be fixed back and forth isn't really going anywhere.

[RileyHef]

30 minutes ago, Infinite Aerospace said:

Folks, the whole can't be fixed, can be fixed back and forth isn't really going anywhere.

It's honestly amazing how much energy goes into these circular conversations when these same 10 people could instead spend that time playing KSP or - better yet - learning how to mod and improve either game further.

Edited June 9 by RileyHef

[Lisias]

2 hours ago, Infinite Aerospace said:

Folks, the whole can't be fixed

Yes, it can.

Limitations from the engine can't be overcome, but programming bugs and silly mistakes (approximately 80% of all grievances we have on KSP¹ since 1.4.0) can. In fact, they already was in some 3rs parties add'ons.

You get these fixes that already exist and apply them on the codebase and launch 1.12.6, and a lot of problems will just vanish. The proper way.

No software can be guaranteed 100% bug free, but we can get near it.

 

1 hour ago, RileyHef said:

It's honestly amazing how much energy goes into these circular conversations when these same 10 people could instead spend that time playing KSP or - better yet - learning how to mod and improve either game further.

You know, these are two mutually inclusive requirements: in order to be able to affirm if something can or not be fixed, someone needs to know the damned thing, and at least managed to fix some of them.

Some of us did exactly that.

It's absolutely impressive how the less someone know about software development, the more he's prone to complain about people fighting about how to better develop software.

You can't fix what you don't know it's broken - or believe it can't be.

Quote

"They did not know it was impossible so they did it”
Mark Twain.

 

[Fizzlebop Smith]

There are quite a few mods that prove various fixes are not only possible.. bit already in existence.

Incorporating these mods into the base code with some rigorous product testing would alleviate many of the claimed "unfixable" bugs.

Injecting them in situ / on the front end is what contributes to some of the buggies mod installs. However, there is already loads of evidence supporting the idea that some well orchestrated surgery can allow KSP1 to thrive.

... aww.. some of use use logic & support out POV with articulated posts with a semblance of substance.

Unlike the "neener. It's sucks bc I said so!"

Edited June 9 by Fizzlebop Smith

[Scarecrow71]

3 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

The burden of evidence isn't on me. I'm not the one who asserted first that KSP 1 is just "poorly tended", and I've yet to see any fruits come from the armchair computer scientists (see: modders) talking big about how they could completely fix the game if given the opportunity.

For your side of the argument, the burden of evidence is absolutely on you.

You come out here and continue to spout off about how it can't be fixed.  You post negative comment after negative comment, contributing next to nothing to the actual discussion.  I'm literally asking you to pitch in here; I literally asked you to present you side with arguments and proof, and you refuse to do so.  Why?  Are you simply not interested in having an intelligent conversation about this?

I've asked before, and I'll ask again:  why are you even here?  You dislike both games, you have nothing positive to say, and you won't engage in actual discussion.  Why wouldn't you be part of a community with a topic or game that you actually like?

[cocoscacao]

2 hours ago, Infinite Aerospace said:

Folks, the whole can't be fixed, can be fixed back and forth isn't really going anywhere.

Apparently, you don't watch tennis... SHAME ON YOU!

[Bej Kerman]

11 hours ago, Lisias said:

14 hours ago, Infinite Aerospace said:

Folks, the whole can't be fixed

Yes, it can.

They said "Folks, the whole can't be fixed, can be fixed back and forth isn't really going anywhere".....      not "the whole can't be fixed".   That much should be clear from the fact that the bit you cherrypicked makes no sense on its own.

11 hours ago, Lisias said:

Limitations from the engine can't be overcome, but programming bugs and silly mistakes (approximately 80% of all grievances we have on KSP¹ since 1.4.0) can.

Limitations, bugs, silly mistakes, anything to avoid saying "broken".

 

11 hours ago, Lisias said:

13 hours ago, RileyHef said:

It's honestly amazing how much energy goes into these circular conversations when these same 10 people could instead spend that time playing KSP or - better yet - learning how to mod and improve either game further.

You know, these are two mutually inclusive requirements: in order to be able to affirm if something can or not be fixed, someone needs to know the damned thing, and at least managed to fix some of them.

You again missed the point of what they're saying.

Edited June 10 by Bej Kerman
typo

[Scarecrow71]

3 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

You again missed the point of what they're saying.

And you again ducked the question I put forth to you.  Can you prove that the game is unfixable?  What evidence do you have that the game cannot be fixed?  You have spent a lot of time stating it can't be fixed, so let's hear your proof.

[dprostock]

Structurally, everything is solvable. The issue is to get capable and professional people, enough money and a reasonable work deadline that does not jeopardize the expectations of the consumer. 

Today a solution could be proposed on the structure of the KSP1, with bug solving equipment, integration with updated hardware in reference to a substantial improvement in performance, firstly, and then, work on the premise of graphical improvement with the use of mid-range PCs.

Only with the aim of offering "Interstellar" (forget multiplayer) and all in the process of shockforce in less than two years.

The question is where the money would come from if there are still unpaid bills from the disaster that was left by KPS2. 

[Infinite Aerospace]

1 hour ago, dprostock said:

Structurally, everything is solvable. The issue is to get capable and professional people, enough money and a reasonable work deadline that does not jeopardize the expectations of the consumer. 

Today a solution could be proposed on the structure of the KSP1, with bug solving equipment, integration with updated hardware in reference to a substantial improvement in performance, firstly, and then, work on the premise of graphical improvement with the use of mid-range PCs.

Only with the aim of offering "Interstellar" (forget multiplayer) and all in the process of shockforce in less than two years.

The question is where the money would come from if there are still unpaid bills from the disaster that was left by KPS2. 

And this quite concisely sums it up. More or less everything can be fixed but isn't practicable, for whatever reason to do so.