I will be refusing to support Take Two Interactive further unless KSP2 is revived.

[LittleBitMore]

It's pretty obvious that, right now, Kerbal Space Program 2 is either dead or indefinitely in limbo. The entire team has been laid off, it's been near radio silence, and they've confirmed to be having severe difficulty selling the IP and the game rights to other companies. The future of KSP2 is most likely going to end negatively unless something changes. I would like it to return and be revived somehow, even though I know this is extremely unlikely. Recent developments and investigative journalism have revealed that this is largely the fault of Take-Two Interactive. I have very little control over Take-Two Interactive as a random citizen of some random place that is inconsequential to their company, but there is exactly one thing that I as a consumer can do to vocally express my distaste and exert some sort of force on the emotionless behemoth that is Take-Two Interactive.

I, as a previously-semi-frequent customer of Take-Two Interactive's games, will refuse to buy their products or fund them in any form unless they make the decision to maintain or revive KSP2's development. To put it short, I'm boycotting T2.

I understand there's very little chance of this doing anything. I don't really care, I'm doing it anyway. It's not just in the hopes of eliciting a response from T2, it's also out of principle. I fundamentally cannot justify supporting them and their actions. It's the same reason I try not to buy things through Amazon or spend my money on YouTube Premium. Sure, these services may make my life a little more enjoyable and convenient, as some games from T2 may. But I have to draw a line because I do not appreciate it when the choices of where I spend my money directly support things I disdain.

What T2 did to the development of KSP2 is, in my moral code, inexcusable. Their actions were the primary cause of KSP2's fate whilst they allowed the blame to be redirected to the largely-innocent development team. It is obvious Intercept Games made a few mistakes, but they were given a very difficult opening by the grandmaster, and even one minor blunder would've been enough to ruin the game. I do not blame Intercept Games. I do not blame Nate Simpson for overpromising and underdelivering (his entire job was to dream big, and dream big he did). I do not blame the programmers for making a buggy mess of a game that took a whole year to become nearly as stable and half as performant as vanilla KSP1. I do not blame the community managers for not telling the community just how difficult and rocky things looked from the inside, and instead assuring us that everything was going fine. I see no reason to when the core of their problems was the funding they were given, the task they were given, and the time they were given. All of these problems were, for the most part, the cause of Take-Two Interactive and their demands for KSP2's production.

By boycotting T2, I'm not missing out on much anyway, they've sorta shredded whatever trust I had in their ability to properly manage a game development/production studio. They had a few games I was interested in, and I'm a fan of a few of their series, but there are many other game development studios out there that I'd much rather support. I've been considering buying Hades due to its good reputation, but recently, I've found it much easier to resist buying it and being perfectly satisfied with the games in my library. Maybe Civilization VI would've been nice to try, but I'm much more easily dissuaded by the price tag than I was a few months ago, and perhaps I can instead look at other 4X games. Sure, I've been wanting to try Sid Meier's Railroads! for a while, but honestly, maybe I should just go outside and visit the cargo train yard in my town and do real actual trainspotting. I have no need for any of their games, especially when they could just lay off a game's entire development studio if the short-term forecast for a game is in the red, simultaneously stifling the future potential of the game as well as uprooting the lives of dozens to hundreds of hardworking developers. This is the kind of thing they've been doing for a while-- KSP2 just happens to be probably the most publicized, most recent, and largest example.

 

Join the boycott if you feel like it, don't join if you don't feel like it. I just wanted to announce it because doing it silently isn't going to allow T2 to glean the message. Feel free to criticize me or whatever, I don't care. You are not currently capable of convincing me to not do this unless you give me a spectacular reason.

A relevant resource: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Take-Two_Interactive_games

 

(I humbly request you be nice to eachother in the replies to this post.)

[Bej Kerman]

29 minutes ago, LittleBitMore said:

(I humbly request you be nice to eachother in the replies to this post.)

Instead of this, it might be far more optimal to place the popcorn on standby 

[TomKerbal]

Whow great. A good deed every day. I've been trying in vain to become a vegetarian for years.

[chefsbrian]

45 minutes ago, LittleBitMore said:

Feel free to criticize me or whatever, I don't care.

Nonsense, I'll never criticize someone for taking a stance and standing by principles - I'll only ever do so if they attempt to harass or bully me or others into doing the same.

I won't go so far as to say I'm giving Take2 the boot, but I'm definitely giving anything EA from any of their publishing efforts a hard pass, they lost that priviledge in my eyes. I'd also say no day-one buys of any of their games, but that's a bit hollow because I'm already doing that for every major publisher at this point, EA or not. Studios have repeatedly promised that they'll release first and fix it later, then never really fix it, so now I give it a couple weeks. Already hurt Take2 that way with one of their games, Homeworld 3 - Seems pretty meh, needs a lotta work, and Take2 owns Gearbox now.

Fight your fight my dude, and remember, you don't need a big coordinated anything to make things happen - A thousand lone wolves is just as many sales lost as a thousand-strong single point, and has the advantage of not even bringing PR to their failures that they can try and spin into a blame game. If what you're doing is right, others will follow naturally, and it'll work out in the end.

[LittleBitMore]

15 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Instead of this, it might be far more optimal to place the popcorn on standby 

unfortunately, when I see people fight over something I care about, it just makes me sad

3 minutes ago, TomKerbal said:

Whow great. A good deed every day. I've been trying in vain to become a vegetarian for years.

yeah, similar story here. I try to become vegetarian but I am in a family and thus I do not control what everyone else buys and cooks. Something I've done is taken a look at the carbon footprints of different meat industries and noticed that chicken has a much smaller footprint than beef, so if I can't avoid meat, I try to select chicken over beef, which helps me feel a little bit better about my inability to avoid meat altogether.

[PDCWolf]

Hard disagree. Take Two is about to release what's very probably going to become the most sold game in history, and even if we look past that, they might release bangers in the future anyways. KSP2's budget was less than 1% of Take Two's worth. How much of their potential userbase do you think the few people remaining here represent?

It's a complete waste of time and might forbid you from enjoying other games in the future. Boycotts require a majority of the customer base to work... whilst in these forums and even the discord we might have... 300 people if I'm being really generous.

[LittleBitMore]

4 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

Hard disagree. Take Two is about to release what's very probably going to become the most sold game in history, and even if we look past that, they might release bangers in the future anyways. KSP2's budget was less than 1% of Take Two's worth. How much of their potential userbase do you think the few people remaining here represent?

It's a complete waste of time and might forbid you from enjoying other games in the future. Boycotts require a majority of the customer base to work... whilst in these forums and even the discord we might have... 300 people if I'm being really generous.

 

5 hours ago, LittleBitMore said:

I understand there's very little chance of this doing anything. I don't really care, I'm doing it anyway.

 

[Superfluous J]

I will continue to buy games I want when I think they're worth - to me - what's being charged for them. Companies change hands and names so frequently it's a fool's errand to keep track of who you should avoid.

Let's say Take Two buys Rare from Microsoft next year. Now you gotta stop buying Rare game. After a few years Sony buys Rare from Take Two, along with several people who used to work for Take Two but moved to Rare in the mean time. Now is it okay to buy Rare games? Or is it not okay to buy Sony games?

Better to just take each thing on its own merits and accept your purchases aren't going to make or break any company's bottom line.

That said, I wholeheartedly support your not buying from the company based on your personal preferences, as I do anybody else. There are companies I will never buy from as well (one supposedly makes great chicken sandwiches) but not because I'm punishing them. It'd be like a mosquito punishing an aircraft carrier by stinging it. It's more because I can't stomach interacting with them.

[Skorj]

4 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

Let's say Take Two buys Rare from Microsoft next year. Now you gotta stop buying Rare game. After a few years Sony buys Rare from Take Two, along with several people who used to work for Take Two but moved to Rare in the mean time. Now is it okay to buy Rare games? Or is it not okay to buy Sony games?

I had to look up Rare to see what games they made.  I had to look up Take2 earlier in this drama.  Games from AAA studios have been almost uniformly bad for so many years now, I just see these companies as graveyards where IP goes to die after its creative energies are spent.  Much like Disney.  Very rarely, a game from a AAA studio won't suck, and that will be big news since its so unexpected, but that's very much the exception.  I stick with not buying games from any of these guys regardless.

I had hope for KSP2 early on because PD was created to publish works from smaller indie studios.  Turns out that hope was misplaced, and T2 was dumping a big steaming pile of AAA on KSP2 from the early days, which is a shame. 

Edited June 7 by Skorj

[Infinite Aerospace]

As crap as it is, our 'thought provoking' game means nothing in the grand scheme of things, as much as it's a crap game and it's hugely overrated, Grand Theft Auto will be a mega success. In the same respect that Call of Duty every time yet another reskinned game comes out, will be successful.

[LameLefty]

20 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

Hard disagree. Take Two is about to release what's very probably going to become the most sold game in history, and even if we look past that, they might release bangers in the future anyways. KSP2's budget was less than 1% of Take Two's worth. How much of their potential userbase do you think the few people remaining here represent?

It's a complete waste of time and might forbid you from enjoying other games in the future. Boycotts require a majority of the customer base to work... whilst in these forums and even the discord we might have... 300 people if I'm being really generous.

If you’re referring to GTA VI (which will, undoubtedly, end up as one of the most-sold games in history), “about” is not the correct word. With luck, it will be released around November 2025, a solid 17 months from now, assuming that - in true R* tradition - it is not delayed further past then.

 

[MARL_Mk1]

On 6/6/2024 at 1:15 PM, PDCWolf said:

Hard disagree. Take Two is about to release what's very probably going to become the most sold game in history, and even if we look past that, they might release bangers in the future anyways. KSP2's budget was less than 1% of Take Two's worth. How much of their potential userbase do you think the few people remaining here represent?

It's a complete waste of time and might forbid you from enjoying other games in the future. Boycotts require a majority of the customer base to work... whilst in these forums and even the discord we might have... 300 people if I'm being really generous.

 

Up to this point it becomes something personal rather than just "oh well, I'll just keep buying their stuff anyways since they are billionaires already". Some form of having a pinch of self respect for what I believe.

I'll be more than happy to play their products, I'm just not going to pay a cent for them.

I actually don't support paying for KSP1 currently either. Game is complete and is DRM free. [snip]

Edited June 8 by Vanamonde

[PDCWolf]

10 hours ago, MARL_Mk1 said:

 

Up to this point it becomes something personal rather than just "oh well, I'll just keep buying their stuff anyways since they are billionaires already". Some form of having a pinch of self respect for what I believe.

I'll be more than happy to play their products, I'm just not going to pay a cent for them.

I actually don't support paying for KSP1 currently either. Game is complete and is DRM free. 

This is entirely my personal vision, but there's I'm pretty sure no "Good job" credits scene at the end of life. Heck, even in life 99% of people won't care that you've let a corporation figuratively "walk all over you". And I don't know how long you've been around but anyone here would easily tell you how I feel: I put money in, I'm owed a good darn game for it, as best as they can make it. Completely contrarian to the "they owe us nothing" crowd. However, I'm not letting their failure make me bitter to the point I'd skip on future possibly amazing games just because they took my money for nothing once.

Take Two is not gonna learn absolutely anything from 100 people in a forum who already gave them money boycotting them, and you deprive yourself of the chance of ever getting good games in a market where the good games are less and less every year.

Like, it's not just about how this achieves nothing, but also humanizing a corporate entity to the point you feel stepped on, and also prohibiting yourself from purchasing what someday could be fun games. You win absolutely nothing, you lose a ton.

Edited June 8 by Vanamonde

[Skorj]

1 hour ago, PDCWolf said:

Like, it's not just about how this achieves nothing, but also humanizing a corporate entity to the point you feel stepped on, and also prohibiting yourself from purchasing what someday could be fun games. You win absolutely nothing, you lose a ton.

If you act like a bad consumer,  you get bad products.  Sure, we're each just one person, but that means we each have one person's responsibility.   There will always be a large group buying buying lootboxes on the FIFA shop, but I don't have to be one of them.  I can't fix all the evil in the world, but I can do my small part not to add to it, and be content with whatever good I can do.

Anyhow, AAA companies don't make good games in the first place, so there's not even a sacrifice to be made.

[PDCWolf]

1 hour ago, Skorj said:

If you act like a bad consumer,  you get bad products.  Sure, we're each just one person, but that means we each have one person's responsibility.   There will always be a large group buying buying lootboxes on the FIFA shop, but I don't have to be one of them.  I can't fix all the evil in the world, but I can do my small part not to add to it, and be content with whatever good I can do.

Anyhow, AAA companies don't make good games in the first place, so there's not even a sacrifice to be made.

Again, I agree with the idea, and I vote with my wallet really often. But I'm conscious that me as an individual will not change the course of the industry no matter how stubborn I might be.

What you describe is exactly why I've been here this long arguing with and trying to convince people about my vision for KSP2: yes, I'm just a single customer, but I know I can be a loudmouth enough in the forums and reddit to be noticed, and maybe prompt other loudmouths to join in till we're visible to devs. On the other hand, this forum, even plus the discord and reddit, are 10k people tops, versus a customer base of about 100 million projected for GTA VI. There's no mathematical way you can convince enough people to reach a point where your vision for the boycott has any chance at succeeding, so it is literally, figuratively and for all measures, just depriving yourself of games for no reason other than to think you matter.

None of us matter alone, responsible or not.

If you wanna go on that route, by all means do, but don't do so deluding yourself that you're somehow a better person. A grain of sand is not enough if no one else puts theirs, and even if others put theirs, it's not enough if just enough people don't add theirs either.

Edited June 8 by PDCWolf
GTA IV came out 2008, kinda late for that one.

[HebaruSan]

I will still play GTA6.

[Fizzlebop Smith]

10 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

I will still play GTA6.

I have not played a GTA title since the days of Vice City. I began my GTA experience in a top-down view with a play loop very similar to carmeggedon. 
love i forgot all about games from those days... i cannot seem to get syndicate out of my head. Anyone remember Bullfrog?

Are the newer GTA titles worth playing? I see things for GTA online and tend to allow my personal bias for that entire project to be a steaming pile of crap. Was wondering if the Single player games are still true to the spirit of the franchise or if they are complete excrements.

 

[HebaruSan]

1 hour ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

i cannot seem to get syndicate out of my head. Anyone remember Bullfrog?

I was so excited about Syndicate Wars, which may have been my first big gaming disappointment. It was OK, but not really on the level of the original (which I think I only played thanks to a compilation that came with a CD-ROM drive). In retrospect, the mind control device (I forget the name) was way, way, way overpowered, since you could win most missions just by accumulating a stampede of civilians as cannon fodder and auxiliary weapon-shooters, and then also mind control any enemies.

1 hour ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

Are the newer GTA titles worth playing? I see things for GTA online and tend to allow my personal bias for that entire project to be a steaming pile of crap. Was wondering if the Single player games are still true to the spirit of the franchise or if they are complete excrements.

I've played Vice City, 3, 4, and 5, and I find them interesting and challenging enough. They kind of are the franchise at this point, frankly. It's kind of like playing an interactive movie.

Edited June 8 by HebaruSan

[Fizzlebop Smith]

Thats what i liked about Vice City. They melded the cinematics in a way that made my ecperience with the PS title quite exciting for the time. Catering to open ended mayhem where you get to be Tony Sparano or Scarface. Ive thought about getting some of the other GTA titles after watching some of the streamers but have such difficulty really finding games i can mesh with today.
They are all relaxing chill builders or survival crafters. Since the genre exploded in recent years i have found an overwhelming number of titles i want to play.. but they all span a limited range of genres. Autamation, Managements, Space, Sim

Syndicate Wars was also my first disappointment with a sequel. This is what brought to mind the title Syndicate in the first place, LoL. I love waxing Nostalgic on some of the titles that defined my formative years.

If i boycotted publishers based on industry practices or past experiences with various licensed / distributed products ... I would be running out of options to play. I personally think Nintendo and Microsoft are chief offenders for shady practices.
Microsoft will buy a series of developers that traditionally make Sony titles. During all the preliminary litigation leading up to the acquisition, representatives of Microsoft will be on record saying that all pre existing contracts will be honored, they have no intention of disrupting current distribution pipelines, the acquisitions are related to expanding portfolio and has nothing to do with throttling competition.... courts agree to allow acquisition and bam Microsoft shutters the developers while enforcing strict NDA on all employees and getting away with no compete for engineers when they can.

HBO did it purchased right before purchased the right to a bunch of streaming content that was already wrapped up with various longstanding licensing agreements to other streaming providers. They told the Courts they would honor all existing contracts and immediately went back on the promise once the merger went through, and HBO streaming launched. It Cost / Gain is better to pay breach of contracts & whatever the court / agencies want to fine for outright lie and reap the profits.
When the cost of illegal / deceitful / duplicitous activity is so little compared to the associated profit, well then it merely becomes the price of doing business and is factored into the decision making procss. 

This aggressive approach and nature of multinational megacorporations will result in a handful of companies owning everything eventually. Controlled market with illusion of choice. Might as well enjoy a game or two while i pretend to decide.

[herbal space program]

I'm not particularly inclined to buy any TT products  after what happened, but I'll probably make an exception for Civ VII if that ever comes out.  I definitely won't buy even that one right after release though.  I will have a wait-and-see attitude, as I should have had with KSP2. TT have shown themselves totally capable of wrecking a great game with mismanagement, so my trust level is zero even for that hallowed franchise. If the reviews are not uniformly glowing, I will take a pass.

Edited June 8 by herbal space program

[MARL_Mk1]

15 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

Again, I agree with the idea, and I vote with my wallet really often. But I'm conscious that me as an individual will not change the course of the industry no matter how stubborn I might be.

What you describe is exactly why I've been here this long arguing with and trying to convince people about my vision for KSP2: yes, I'm just a single customer, but I know I can be a loudmouth enough in the forums and reddit to be noticed, and maybe prompt other loudmouths to join in till we're visible to devs. On the other hand, this forum, even plus the discord and reddit, are 10k people tops, versus a customer base of about 100 million projected for GTA VI. There's no mathematical way you can convince enough people to reach a point where your vision for the boycott has any chance at succeeding, so it is literally, figuratively and for all measures, just depriving yourself of games for no reason other than to think you matter.

None of us matter alone, responsible or not.

If you wanna go on that route, by all means do, but don't do so deluding yourself that you're somehow a better person. A grain of sand is not enough if no one else puts theirs, and even if others put theirs, it's not enough if just enough people don't add theirs either.

That's the thing, I'll be playing those games either way. I just won't be spending my money on them

And I do think I matter, regardless of how big the corporation at hand is.

Do I even consider doing that "boycotting"? No. That'd be stupid. But my money won't touch Take Two's hands no more.

[Fizzlebop Smith]

59 minutes ago, MARL_Mk1 said:

That's the thing, I'll be playing those games either way. I just won't be spending my money on them

And I do think I matter, regardless of how big the corporation at hand is.

Do I even consider doing that "boycotting"? No. That'd be stupid. But my money won't touch Take Two's hands no more.

 

I think Advocating piracy in any public forum is pretty excrementsty. Regardless of where that form is.

 

Promoting illegal activity jeopardizes the existence of this forum. Not to mention making children think it's acceptable to commit theft.

Perhaps the individuals reading do not have the years of wisdom to help them determine when this theft is acceptable.. or better.. warranted / expected.

 

Really need to structure your argument in a way that doesn't condone such acts. Honestly, your unwillingness to pay for the product.. does not prove a lack of value in the product, but your opinion of it instead.

[PDCWolf]

2 hours ago, MARL_Mk1 said:

That's the thing, I'll be playing those games either way. I just won't be spending my money on them

And I do think I matter, regardless of how big the corporation at hand is.

Do I even consider doing that "boycotting"? No. That'd be stupid. But my money won't touch Take Two's hands no more.

Ah well, that first method is much better as a protest, for example. For some reason it's considered (and met with higher punishments!) than theft. However I think it's against the rules to reference it here.

[Skorj]

18 hours ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

Anyone remember Bullfrog?

Fun story there.  The founders were broke after their first game didn't so do well, when they were offered free Amiga systems in order to make business software (by Commodore IIRC).  They took the systems and used them to make Populous, which put them on the map.  Lots of ground-breaking games from them. 

17 hours ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

This aggressive approach and nature of multinational megacorporations will result in a handful of companies owning everything eventually. Controlled market with illusion of choice. Might as well enjoy a game or two while i pretend to decide.

Lots of great indie games in almost every genre.  Heck, there were decent indie games recently that were spiritual successors to Bullfrog's  Theme Hospital and Dungeon Keeper.  Not many vehicular combat games though - I would love a Car Wars-style RPG.  I'd be surprised if we don't see a new game fill the vacuum left by KSP in the next few years, hopefully something with a new approach beyond "sandbox with missions".

[boolybooly]

What I will say is $140m is chicken feed compared to something in the order of $10bn projected income from GTA6 alone. So cutting these productions at this time, amounting to about 1% of projected 2025 income and an easily tolerable expense even in the current market with TTWO's turnover, is an irrational counterproductive overcompensation for post COVID market adjustments.

Whoever did this saved TTWO a relatively small amount but shockingly contradicted TTWOs own assurances about Private Division titles, promising they would be safe and that gamers could trust TTWO.

From a PR angle not only did they disappoint KSP2 players, they made themselves look intrinsically untrustworthy and liars to boot and now TTWO have the same kind of rep as Electronic Arts.

From where I am sitting the damage from this uninsightful move not long before GTA6 release is going to cost TTWO a lot more than it saves.

Frankly I am astonished.

 

 

Edited June 9 by boolybooly