[1.8.x] UnKerballed Start v1.1.0 (updated Oct 27, 2019)

[vardicd]

26 minutes ago, severedsolo said:

hey - the CustomBarnKit.cfg is not disabled by default in 1.1. Wouldn't be a problem if grabbing directly from Spacedock as it gives you 1.0.8 by default, but CKAN is pulling 1.1 for KSP 1.8.

Could you please disable it again, as it's going to break Bureaucracy when I release, unless I write MM patches specifically for when UnKerballedStart is installed (which I don't really want to do when this seems like it's been left on by mistake)

Uh, how does this break Bureaucracy? I just downloaded the 1.1 version of Unkerballed start 12 hours or so ago, and started using it while i was playing, and didn't see any problems with Bureaucracy for the several hours I played afterwards. What did I not notice?

Edited January 24, 2020 by vardicd

[severedsolo]

4 minutes ago, vardicd said:

Uh, how does this break Bureaucracy? I just downloaded the 1.1 version of Unkerballed start 12 hours or so ago, and started using it while i was playing last night, and didn't see any problems with Bureaucracy for the several hours I played afterwards. What did I not notice?

The UnkerballedStart CBK config overwrites the VAB part limit levels. "Breaks" is a bit strong - but it does severely affect the balance (cus UKS assumes 3 levels). - Like I said, I can patch it, but I get the impression from the OP it's not supposed to be turned on at all.

You probably didn't notice it because I forced the Bureaucracy config to load last with a :FINAL for testing - but that's bad form for a released mod.

Edited January 24, 2020 by severedsolo

[kcs123]

10 minutes ago, severedsolo said:

hey @theonegalen / @SpinkAkron - the CustomBarnKit.cfg is not disabled by default in 1.1. Wouldn't be a problem if grabbing directly from Spacedock as it gives you 1.0.8 by default, but CKAN is pulling 1.1 for KSP 1.8.

Could you please disable it again, as it's going to break Bureaucracy when I release, unless I write MM patches specifically for when UnKerballedStart is installed (which I don't really want to do when this seems like it's been left on by mistake)

1.1. version is released before 1.0.8 therefor is slight confusion with manual downloads from Spacedock, while CKAN properly handle it. At first, legacy support for older KSP versions is added with different name, but to avoid confusion and allow CKAN to better handle all mod versions, it was given same name but with lower version number.

It may take a while until SpinkAkron respond and make changes, so until then you can use patch in spoiler section. Initially, for gamebalance reasons prices were swaped for launchpad/VAB, but after my proposal, instead of changing prices, number of allowed parts in VAB/SPH is increased slightly because UnKerballedStart require crafts with more parts in early career game for the same milestones compared to vanilla game.

Spoiler

@CUSTOMBARNKIT:FOR[UnKerballedStart]
{
	@VAB
	{
		@partCountLimit = 40, 255, -1
	}
	@SPH
	{
		@partCountLimit = 40, 255, -1
	}
	
	// use following only if you still have upgrade prices swaped
	//@VAB
	//{
	//	@upgrades = 19000, 75000, 282000
	//}
	//@SPH
	//{
	//	@upgrades = 19000, 75000, 282000
	//}
	//@LAUNCHPAD
	//{
	//	@upgrades = 56000, 225000, 845000
	//}
	//@RUNWAY
	//{
	//	@upgrades = 56000, 225000, 845000
	//}
	
}

 

So, it might be good to include your own configs for UKS if it conflicts with Bureaucracy, but keep in mind why it is set in UKS for gamebalance reasons like it is, to keep idea and goals of UKS.

[severedsolo]

2 minutes ago, kcs123 said:

but keep in mind why it is set in UKS for gamebalance reasons like it is, to keep idea and goals of UKS.

That's fair, I got the impression from the OP that it was supposed to be off by default (and the changelog was super vague about the change). I'll patch it, but try and match UKS's goals (the main problem is that Bureaucracy makes the VAB 5 levels, and a 3 level patch messes that up - now I know the reasons behind it, I can adjust to satisfy both)

Edited January 24, 2020 by severedsolo

[kcs123]

17 minutes ago, severedsolo said:

That's fair, I got the impression from the OP that it was supposed to be off by default (and the changelog was super vague about the change). I'll patch it, but make it clear that I've done that so people can change it back if they want

Yep, at first it was OFF by default when CustomBarnKit.cfg was changing prices, noticing users about it in OP, but in last version it is ON by default on purpose when changes are only to increase part numbers for level one VAB/SPH limits. So, patch to increase allowed part numbers for level one VAB/SPH and for other levels as you think it is apropriate for Bureaucracy should work fine if you include both, UKS and Bureaucracy in NEEDS MM command.

More info about it is burried somewhere in this thread several pages back.

[theonegalen]

@severedsolo

Oh, that explains some things. :-)

I don't have access to the spacedock page, so Spink will have to do the update there.

[venturaguy101]

@theonegalen I noticed with 1.1 you changed the CustomBarnKit.cfg to increase the part limit instead of the disabled config which switches the costs of the VAB/SPH and the launchpad/runway.  The documentation on the thread has not been updated to reflect this change.  Might be nice to have the costs switch option available in the current version.

Also it would be nice to have a repo where some community and incomplete config files for other mods could be placed and shared with the community.  Maybe help from the community could add more support for additional mods.

[Beetlecat]

12 hours ago, theonegalen said:

I don't use USI mods anymore, so I haven't done anything with those, and probably won't. I did use Exploration, and I think Sounding Rockets is compatible, but I'm not sure. @SpinkAkron could probably speak with more authority on that.

For @venturaguy101 --

I'm using Sounding Rockets at the moment, and they seem to be mostly in the very-entry level of the tree, as would be appropriate  -- some of the better bits are a bit too high, so I'm experimenting with moving the tiny rocket engine to tier 3 along with its support tanks--since the logic would be that we work through all the sizes and ability of sounding rocket before moving on to manned and larger-scale rockets, yeah?

Also taking some inspiration from  @Drew Kerman 's http://www.kerbalspace.agency .

I'll post a horribly sloppy MM patch once I get things in good places.

[severedsolo]

So what I've done with Bureaucracy, is written a patch that will preserve the "higher part count on the first level" that UKS implements, if it's installed, but also preserves Bureaucracy's 5 level system (in other words, this is no longer your problem, but I'd appreciate a ping if you decide to turn the cfg off again)

[tinygrox]

I found that these two liquid engines may not be compatible with TweakScale.

They don't scale properly.

[vardicd]

I have a question, and forgive me if its been addressed somewhere and I've missed the answer,

I've been playing with the mod for a while now, and have come to realize  The LV-T05 and LV-T10 never show up in my game, I'm using restock/restock+ and wondering if the model changes in those mods might have something to do with it, or if anyone has any idea why this could be happening

 

[kcs123]

11 hours ago, tinygrox said:

I found that these two liquid engines may not be compatible with TweakScale.

They don't scale properly.

Most probably because those are already scaled down versions of stock engines (without tweakscale plugin, using only "stock" MM patches). So, yes ordinary TS scaling might not be proper for those and can mess up things. @Lisias might be able to tell more about it when times allow. Those engines are not even considered to be scalable, it was introduced with UKS to help filling part gap for early career game where smaller crafts and probes are intended. Later on, when you unlock regular stock parts, those should be properly scalable up and down with TS.

Can't tell how those parts were even get TS MM patches, I didn't pay attention for those that much. I was using TS mostly on IR parts and limited few other parts in my career game. That helped me to avoid most of the kraken attacks.

1 hour ago, vardicd said:

I have a question, and forgive me if its been addressed somewhere and I've missed the answer,

I've been playing with the mod for a while now, and have come to realize  The LV-T05 and LV-T10 never show up in my game, I'm using restock/restock+ and wondering if the model changes in those mods might have something to do with it, or if anyone has any idea why this could be happening

Good guess. Those engines rally on stock parts. It is just MM patch that copy stock part and make some adjustments, to be smaller in size and weight, thrust, prices, tech tree node when be available, etc. As much as I know about restock mod (never used that one), restock hide all or most of stock parts and install it's own version of those parts. To fix those, it would be necessary to write new MM config file that would copy restock engines and create new LV-T05 and LV-T10 engines from restock files. Just in case when both mods are installed : restock and UKS.

[Lisias]

2 minutes ago, kcs123 said:

Most probably because those are already scaled down versions of stock engines (without tweakscale plugin, using only "stock" MM patches). So, yes ordinary TS scaling might not be proper for those and can mess up things. @Lisias might be able to tell more about it when times allow. 

Currently, there're three situations in which a part is not being scaled by TS:

• No one wrote a patch for it.
• The part was patched, but this part have a feature that TweakScale doesn't knows how to use, and the patch was withdrawn programatically to avoid summoning the Kraken
  • Module Part Variants is, now, the most prominent technical debit on TS
  • You will get a Yellow Warning telling you about it.
• Someone patched it badly, and rendered the part dangerous to use, but also dangerous to fix
  • You will get a "Houston" on it.

 

6 minutes ago, kcs123 said:

I was using TS mostly on IR parts and limited few other parts in my career game. That helped me to avoid most of the kraken attacks.

It's time since the last time TS was directly involved on a Kraken attack, and the Sanity Checks currently detects all the known sources of misbehaviours too.

What we can still have are unholy interactions between modules - a module that calls TS itself, borks, and leaves its part corrupted. For these ones, I have no control but as the reports are issued, I tackle them down.

[kcs123]

45 minutes ago, Lisias said:

Currently, there're three situations in which a part is not being scaled by TS:

• Someone patched it badly, and rendered the part dangerous to use, but also dangerous to fix
  • You will get a "Houston" on it.

 

It's time since the last time TS was directly involved on a Kraken attack, and the Sanity Checks currently detects all the known sources of misbehaviours too.

What we can still have are unholy interactions between modules - a module that calls TS itself, borks, and leaves its part corrupted. For these ones, I have no control but as the reports are issued, I tackle them down.

I can only guess, but I think it is last option, that someone patched it badly, but I can only guess what is going on.
TS have improved a lot lately, I didn't tell that it cause kraken-a like bugs, but my habbit was stayed, to use TS on limited number of parts, from times when TS was less stable (much longer before you taken a torch in development of TS).

[Praetorian]

Just started using the mod and I am loving it so far. Are mod config patches something that you are still adding over time? one for Tantares would be great!

[kcs123]

1 hour ago, Praetorian said:

Just started using the mod and I am loving it so far. Are mod config patches something that you are still adding over time? one for Tantares would be great!

It depends mostly on available free time of developers. In most cases, any craft part mod that is compatible with stock or CTT tech tree is supported without any necessary changes. Only reason to write part/mod specific MM patch would be if some part breaks gamebalance too badly. Meaning, such part is overpowered for some early techtree node or some part become available too late in techtree node when it is already obsolete due to other better parts being available etc.

If you think that some mod/part need changes, make a suggestion in this thread. Even better if you are familiar in writing MM patches, you can post it here to others for testing and if it fits, it can be included in some of next updates.

Other than possible gamebalance issues, there is no reason to not use any mod part pack that you like to use in your game.

[Beetlecat]

1 hour ago, kcs123 said:

If you think that some mod/part need changes, make a suggestion in this thread. Even better if you are familiar in writing MM patches, you can post it here to others for testing and if it fits, it can be included in some of next updates.

Seconding this, for sure.

You don't need to code, or even have any idea "how" it works. Just a list of: "This pod / part would work much better in [this named tech node] because..." can be the starting point that anyone else can easily throw into a patch.

I frequently migrate stuff around on my own to suit my own style, but if something seems obviously out of place, or would make more sense for everyone, I'd post it here (or on the mod's page itself for a CTT-based compatibility patch).

Edited February 1, 2020 by Beetlecat

[Crixomix]

Has anyone who has also used PBC (Probes before Crew) thought about how these two mods compare? Obviously the goal is similar, so I'd be curious how this mod is same/different than Probes before Crew.

Thanks,

[kcs123]

9 hours ago, Crixomix said:

Has anyone who has also used PBC (Probes before Crew) thought about how these two mods compare? Obviously the goal is similar, so I'd be curious how this mod is same/different than Probes before Crew.

Thanks,

I haven't tried PCB, although, I know about it for some time. So, not exactly opinion based from gameplay, but rather what is written in PCB thread. Yes, both mods are similar in concept and have similar goals. There few differences that I have noticed though. UKS does not alter stock/mods parts, it only moves those around in tech tree nodes. Instead, to fill gap from stock parts, UKS provide few parts scaled to smaller variants of existing stock parts (engines). Early in game, UKS encourage usage of RCS to steer craft, rather than reaction wheels. This also leed to requirement of more parts allowed on craft at level one SPH/VAB buildings. Therefore is Custom Barn Kit MM patches to balance this requirement.

PCB have positioned some of parts in slightly different manner than UKS does. Science requirements to unlock some nodes and what you can get from contracts are bit different too. Without actualy playing game with PCB, can't say much more about it, which one works better than others. It is worth to try both if you have some space on HDD, you can have two instances of KSP install, one with UKS and one with PCB, so you can try both and compare.

[Crixomix]

I actually really like being forced into using RCS for manueverability. Are there any mods like the old semi-saturatable reaction wheels that I can get? Thanks for the tip. I went ahead and downloaded it and one other BIG thing of note is the remote-tech antennas are in better spots in UKS. PBC forced you to have a very high science level before unlocking dishes that could go to Jool or even Duna. So you kinda had to go to Eve first since it was closer. I didn't love that as Duna tends to be my first mission outside of Kerbins SOI

Edited February 2, 2020 by Crixomix

[kcs123]

Yep, while EVE is closer, dV requirement is much higher, so it is not good choice if you want to leave Kerbal SOI early in career game. You may not have enough parts unlocked and enough science for EVE and that might you leave to tedious grinding around Mun and Minimus, while other planets may provide better rewards in terms of science points required to unlock more parts.

I didn't used much of other mods that mess with reaction wheels, except already mentioned semi-saturable reaction wheels. Others might be able to offer better suggestion on this.

[Bombaatu]

5 hours ago, Crixomix said:

I actually really like being forced into using RCS for manueverability. Are there any mods like the old semi-saturatable reaction wheels that I can get? Thanks for the tip. I went ahead and downloaded it and one other BIG thing of note is the remote-tech antennas are in better spots in UKS. PBC forced you to have a very high science level before unlocking dishes that could go to Jool or even Duna. So you kinda had to go to Eve first since it was closer. I didn't love that as Duna tends to be my first mission outside of Kerbins SOI

I think Mandatory RCS does this 

[Crixomix]

2 minutes ago, Bombaatu said:

I think Mandatory RCS does this 

Sort of. It makes some changes to RCS that I don't love. They make it act different depending on SAS vs. pilot control and I'd prefer it to be the same either way, just nerfed power from stock numbers.

[Kwebib]

You can always do a module manager patch to severely nerf reaction wheels' overall power. They still don't saturate that way, but they become useful only in space.

[Crixomix]

17 hours ago, Kwebib said:

You can always do a module manager patch to severely nerf reaction wheels' overall power. They still don't saturate that way, but they become useful only in space.

Kwebib, thanks for that tip. That's what I ended up doing. Found some code from someone else and put it in a .cfg and it worked beautifully to cut all of their torque by a factor of 5. Though I'm not sure if that's luck. Code is below:

@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleReactionWheel]]
{
    @MODULE[ModuleReactionWheel]
    {
        @PitchTorque *= 0.20
        @YawTorque *= 0.20
        @RollTorque *= 0.20
    }
}

This felt like a good amount of nerf. Now the cost/weight of getting a certain amount of torque using reaction wheels vs. RCS is more balanced. I might nerf it a tad more to be honest. My goal is to make RCS actually provide more torque for the same amount of cost/weight, so that you're incentivized to use it.