Serenity Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 3 hours ago, SSTO Crasher said: Why? FOR YOU, and now that it’s finally coming you choose to complain. Tell me, could YOU write such a huge game like that. No? That’s what I thought. So, all of you stop your complaining and be grateful that they have given you a game, and be exited for new updates So let's think about this. The only time we should be judging a product's quality is when we can personally make something at least as good. This does not hold any logic, every single product you can't make at your home workshop would be of flawless quality and instant buy. When we stop complaining and we start accepting and overhyping you know what happens? A stream of hundreds of games, unfinished, unpolished, overpriced, overpromised. That's what's the current state of games so when i see the tape playing all over again that's where my frustration comes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeSchmuckatelli Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 2 hours ago, t_v said: Thanks. I saw that thread which is why I was unsure of whether this had official evidence behind it. I referred to and quoted from the website. Go to the FAQ portion and look under the quoted parts Kerbal Space Program 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinlink Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 I don't care what ppl are saying, I'm hyped! Even with all pre-alpha footage!, Now, when the pre-order of the early-access? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Aziz Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 (edited) [snip] Jokes aside, they said there's no preorder in typical sense. As in, you're buying early access title so technically that's preorder of the full game. Edited October 23, 2022 by 18Watt Edited by moderation team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinlink Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 (edited) 14 hours ago, The Aziz said: [snip] Jokes aside, they said there's no preorder in typical sense. As in, you're buying early access title so technically that's preorder of the full game. The meaning of a pre-order of the Early Access would be to show our support to the development, and show our commitment to support the beauty and masterpiece KSP series are, even if unfinished. I see it more of a symbol... The devs have been honest, is not about flashy trailers and smoke... Is about to continue supporting the development of KSP and beyond! Edited October 23, 2022 by 18Watt Edited by moderation team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vl3d Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 18 hours ago, Bej Kerman said: You're just going to forget the part where the devs said "we are opening EA because the game is in a state in which we think it's time to see what the community thinks"? Exactly. They are testing and adapting design decisions. A lot of the work for the road map features is already done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrFancyPL Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 20 hours ago, Serenity said: The roadmap is literally every single new and exciting feature that was advertised for the sequel. Of course it is. I bet it is a whole lot easier iterating/bugfixing/working on a subset of the product, than on the whole of it. Fact, that they aren't sharing all of the features at the same time doesn't mean they don't have them prepared. It means testers (us) won't scatter across all the features of the full game, and we'll be focused on the parts of it they will test. I personally don't think thats bad, but I am scared AF for KSP2, if they can deliver (especially, that big publisher is at the steer). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 (As I said in another thread,) Early Access = "Fly like a sir an earl!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSTO Crasher Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 9 hours ago, Serenity said: So let's think about this. The only time we should be judging a product's quality is when we can personally make something at least as good. This does not hold any logic, every single product you can't make at your home workshop would be of flawless quality and instant buy. When we stop complaining and we start accepting and overhyping you know what happens? A stream of hundreds of games, unfinished, unpolished, overpriced, overpromised. That's what's the current state of games so when i see the tape playing all over again that's where my frustration comes. Here is my point What do you think the developers have been doing these past 5 years, you think they have been delaying again and again and again for no reason. No it’s because they was a good game to come out and are dedicated to making it happen. They probably hated all the delays just as much as you did, their product that they have been working on for years had gotten delayed again. Oh and you endless complaining didn’t help either. In the shadowzone video he said not to just say IT SUCKS, after one second just because something didn’t work like you thought it should. Seems like you are doing it preemptively. What do you think that they would think if they saw you right now, bashing a game they have been working on for 5 years just because they decided to release it early and continue working on the other things. And keep in mind that anytime during the dev process something could have happened that stopped the game from ever being released in the first place. So be grateful you are getting a game soon, and will get a complete game when the time comes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xelo Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 (edited) 42 minutes ago, SSTO Crasher said: Here is my point What do you think the developers have been doing these past 5 years, you think they have been delaying again and again and again for no reason. No it’s because they was a good game to come out and are dedicated to making it happen. They probably hated all the delays just as much as you did, their product that they have been working on for years had gotten delayed again. Oh and you endless complaining didn’t help either. In the shadowzone video he said not to just say IT SUCKS, after one second just because something didn’t work like you thought it should. Seems like you are doing it preemptively. What do you think that they would think if they saw you right now, bashing a game they have been working on for 5 years just because they decided to release it early and continue working on the other things. And keep in mind that anytime during the dev process something could have happened that stopped the game from ever being released in the first place. So be grateful you are getting a game soon, and will get a complete game when the time comes 10 hours ago, Serenity said: When we stop complaining and we start accepting and overhyping you know what happens? A stream of hundreds of games, unfinished, unpolished, overpriced, overpromised. I think it's just the contention between the philosophies of "be happy with the fact we got early access, a solid date, and got a more active role in KSP2 development" and "we shouldn't encourage this behavior of over-promising and under-delivering when it comes to releases". I can see both sides here, but as an software developer, I want to say guessing a release date is like solving the Halting problem. That's one of the reasons why agile development was invented, literally noone could consistently predict how long the whole thing would take correctly, most companies would under-guess, and suffer massive losses and go over-budget (It still happens now obviously). Eventually it just came down to "just keep making features until its there, and update your estimate along the way." You pay for development time not the product itself, the more dev time the better the product. The old adage is "90% of the work occurs in the first 90% of the project, and the other 90% occurs in the remaining 10% (making a total of 180% of work)". Software problems always seem simple on the surface, as our minds cannot fathom every sub-problem in our estimate, and thus, we just have to deal with the fact that a time estimate is no more effective at prediction then a self-imposed soft deadline. You can simply extend your estimate by X%, but you run into issues with budget, requirement changes due to time, and delivery there. So should we criticize KSP2's team for their delays? I would say the criticism is about as valid as blaming your coworker for arriving late after they needed to use a foggy highway covered in ice at rush hour. While you can tentatively account for the time stuck in traffic, accounting for the car crashes along the way is a different story c: Edited October 23, 2022 by Xelo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gussi111 Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 (edited) 12 hours ago, Serenity said: When we stop complaining and we start accepting and overhyping you know what happens? A stream of hundreds of games, unfinished, unpolished, overpriced, overpromised. That's what's the current state of games so when i see the tape playing all over again that's where my frustration comes. Player crying and complaining (or being hyped) never was a factor into any of this. What you're seeing is a mix of big games becoming much bigger (and complexity doesn't scale linearly with game size and scope) and microscopic studios being able to make games that are up to standard if not better than AAA of a generation or two back. That means a lot of crappy games, and even good games being crappier on average but it also gave us all the innovation in the past 15 years of gaming and way more choice in what we want to play. Every successful new genre of games it's either coming from a crappy indie early access or the standalone version of a crappy mod. It's not a perfect system, I've spent hundreds of not thousands of words saying how terrible KSP progression system is, but the truth is that without this system we wouldn't have KSP at all. And with it none of the games on which I spent hundreds of hours in the past decade. You can't have KSP, Factorio, ONI, Minecraft, Terraria (but also MOBAs and Hero Shooters or Battle Royale FPSs) without this system that rewards small developers and modders for trying to think outside of the box and the established schemes, even if they're terrible at it. Edited October 23, 2022 by Master39 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthgently Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 So far, I'm mostly sticking to my pitch-drop-eoFY2022 theory. So early access in late February could easily accommodate a science non-sandbox-enhanced release by end of FY 2022 in late March. I'm hoping the interval is that short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket Farmer Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 11 hours ago, Serenity said: So let's think about this. The only time we should be judging a product's quality is when we can personally make something at least as good. This does not hold any logic, every single product you can't make at your home workshop would be of flawless quality and instant buy. When we stop complaining and we start accepting and overhyping you know what happens? A stream of hundreds of games, unfinished, unpolished, overpriced, overpromised. That's what's the current state of games so when i see the tape playing all over again that's where my frustration comes. Sigh. Let me get this straight. You bought the original KSP about 5 years ago. You have over 1,000 posts on the forum so you probably have at least 500 hours of play time and another 100+ hours of forum posting time (also entertainment). You originally paid somewhere around $40 for KSP so you’ve gotten immense value off purchasing the original game. Now you are upset at the value proposition of spending another $50 upfront before seeing the new sequel? Let’s face it at worst KSP2 is a completely unplayable jumble of code which never gets fixed at which point you’ve paid $90 to the KSP series for an amazing amount of entertainment. That’s the worst case here for you (which is very unlikely). So all of the mock upset and concern is total entitled bunk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Aziz Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 Many people who say it's too expensive don't use the "value for money" or rather "time for money" approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket Farmer Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 10 minutes ago, darthgently said: So far, I'm mostly sticking to my pitch-drop-eoFY2022 theory. So early access in late February could easily accommodate a science non-sandbox-enhanced release by end of FY 2022 in late March. I'm hoping the interval is that short. I really really doubt that. The original KSP spent several years getting to 1.0 and Star Citizen is at about 8 years of alpha access. Ok the absolute tightest schedule it will take 2 weeks for testers to run through the full game. Then it will take KSP a minimum of 1 week to classify the bugs and determine which Dev should even tackle them. Then that Dev will need a couple of weeks (absolute minimum) to make the fixes and probably much much more. Then there needs to be at least a week plus of internal testing of the new code then another week testing all the new fixes together to get to gold code. Most companies can manage a normal full update about once every 3 months (hot fixes for more critical elements of course are much faster) Then the whole process starts over again as the alpha testers try the new build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarecrow71 Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, gussi111 said: I didn't think I could get any more freaked out and jacked up over KSP2...and then I watched this. Lot of good information in a clear, easy-to-understand presentation. Shadowzone here has a lot of the same questions we do, but he's able to provide some clarity - at least from his point of view - around what the feature video gave us. Yes, he has an inside track with the company and the developers, so it's entirely possible, however unlikely, that he has inside information. Regardless of that, how he presents what we were told in the feature video is really good stuff, and should put some fears over the early access release to rest. Some people are still gonna complain about their favorite features not being included, or that we were promised a full game and we aren't getting that. I still say that we are getting KSP2, and there is nothing about that which makes me upset. I am looking forward to learning all about the new game, and then playing it endlessly when it comes out! There is one thing in this and the feature video that got mentioned that I am really looking for more information on: modding. I am a software developer by trade, and I came into the KSP world a little too late to really build anything of my own. Part of that is because I was unable to find a whole lot of detailed information about how to mod the game other than "Open one of the files and copy most of it and see what happens". What I am hoping for with KSP2 is that someone crafts a detailed tutorial on how to mod the game so those of us with our own ideas can try our hand at doing this instead of sitting on the sidelines waiting for someone else to maybe come up with part of the same idea. Edited October 23, 2022 by Scarecrow71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rutabaga22 Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 I feel like being scared of early access not being full of every feature promised is like being scared a minecraft update will be bad because the first snapshot is full of bug fixes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regex Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Rocket Farmer said: I really really doubt that. The original KSP spent several years getting to 1.0 and Star Citizen is at about 8 years of alpha access. Also, KSP1 wasn't even complete with 1.0. We didn't get localization until 1.3 and had to wait until 1.6 for a delta-V tool (which honestly should have been an easy win pre-1.0). KSP 1.0 was out in April 2015. The 0.7 release was in June 2011. I bought it at 0.13 sometime after December 2011 and it was still what I would consider an "alpha" product. Comparing what we're getting in KSP2 early access to the 0.13 KSP1 (or 0.21 if you'd prefer), it's miles ahead. And they're being smart about the pricing, sticker shock be damned; I can only speculate on how much money Squad lost on EA pricing and the promise of free DLCs. $50 USD for what looks like a pretty complete sandbox experience? Sign me up! Edited October 23, 2022 by regex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthgently Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 5 hours ago, Vl3d said: Exactly. They are testing and adapting design decisions. A lot of the work for the road map features is already done. ^^^This. It just could be that the situation is very much as Nate described it, no more, no less Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthgently Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 (edited) 42 minutes ago, regex said: Also, KSP1 wasn't even complete with 1.0. We didn't get localization until 1.3 and had to wait until 1.6 for a delta-V tool (which honestly should have been an easy win pre-1.0). I don't think that how KSP1 played out necessarily relates much. A very different mix of management involved as well as a very different economic climate, while at the same time we have multiple reassurances and evidence that many of the core game flavor principles with regards to modding and player input are preserved. So somewhat an apple to oranges comparison wrt ksp1 v ksp2 timelines. Hard to say really Edited October 23, 2022 by darthgently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regex Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 23 minutes ago, darthgently said: I don't think that how KSP1 played out necessarily relates much. Hopefully it doesn't. KSP1 was developed by a team that had to become a development house which grew from a single developer, KSP2 is a different beast entirely. My point really was that, compared to the previous game, we're getting quite a bit when early access is starting. Compared to a lot of games I've bought in early access, in fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bej Kerman Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 (edited) 15 hours ago, The Aziz said: [snip] We're still bashing Hello Games and comparing NMS to Cyberpunk after all the team did to salvage the game? In late 2022? Edited October 23, 2022 by 18Watt Edited by moderation team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kerbiloid Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 A minor thing stays unclear. What does it need to be done till 24 Feb? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeSchmuckatelli Posted October 23, 2022 Share Posted October 23, 2022 16 minutes ago, kerbiloid said: A minor thing stays unclear. What does it need to be done till 24 Feb? The collection of 'shelf regolith' is an important step. Between now and then, it will gather regolith while the developers explore other parts of this planet which they've not been able to see for a very long time. After Feb 24, they will all be dragged back into their respective cages and punished by having to read these forums until fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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