NO CAREER MODE or Money planned for game

[Kerbart]

2 minutes ago, RocketRockington said:

I mean ok, I get that it's somewhat unrealistic, it's more like a commercial space program. But it made the game have reasonable engineering challenges, you couldn't.make any size rockets like in Science mode.

But what's the gameplay with getting hydrogen you're imagining.  There's an ocean right in front of KSC.  Are you expecting me to play Factorio and set up electrolysis on Kerbin to make hydrogen?  I like Factorio but that doesn't seem to fit with KSP.

Well, we don’t know. What we know is that there is going to be a way to automate supply runs. So it’s likely you will need to mine certain materials on ohter planets and/or moons, forcing players to explore more outward—and get rewards for it.

I can imagine it will still be an engineering challenge if you only have a limited amount of fuel available.

[malkuth]

Its funny when people look back at KSP1 one and say how great things was.. But everyone seems to forget that most of the stuff added right before 1.0 and beyond was done by modders.  The contract system was done Arsonide that developed the FinePrint mod.  Rover dude has a big hand in all post 1.0 stuff.  As does A bunch of others.   In fact that 1 year that they hired all those modders (before the controversy) those guys fixed so many things Including Modding tools and stuff like AutoStruts it was insane.  Bugs that KSP1 was ignoring for years.

So yeah we can look back on KSP1 and say how great it is.. And it is.  But it had its issues and a lot of the community helped fix it.   

No contracts system in KSP2 no big deal, cause there people like me and Arsonide (Or new lot of modders with better ideas) that will add money.. Don't be so concerned.  But it might just add more grind, we will have to see what they do.  I mean resources might be the new money, and be enough.

Edited February 26, 2023 by malkuth

[James Kerman]

Welcome to the forum @GGG-GoodGuyGreg, your post has been merged with this overlapping topic.

[GGG-GoodGuyGreg]

I hope the idea isn't that we ONLY get a similar progression type as in Factorio or Terraria where you build stuff to gather (new types of) resources that allow you to build the next thing. I remember in those games having tons of gold and no use for it because I didn't mine this new type of resource found in this new type of place.

Now this is all fine for people who are looking for a more involved type of progression combined with resource gathering/mining, but I've always felt like running a real Space Program is also dependent in many ways by managing/acquiring/negotiating funds through contracts, besides science progression, and I still think this seemingly outdated metric, this could prove useful both in Single Player where it brings back the fun and meaning of tweaking the design of a rocket to fit in a budget and optimizing the design to meet parts count or size/weight constrain. I believe funds could also prove useful in competitive Multiplayer.

I think being able to choose between "classic career mode with funds" and this newer way would be best of both worlds instead of having just one or the other.

Edited February 26, 2023 by GGG-GoodGuyGreg

[RocketRockington]

52 minutes ago, malkuth said:

Its funny when people look back at KSP1 one and say how great things was.. But everyone seems to forget that most of the stuff added right before 1.0 and beyond was done by modders.  The contract system was done Arsonide that developed the FinePrint mod.  Rover dude has a big hand in all post 1.0 stuff.  As does A bunch of others.   In fact that 1 year that they hired all those modders (before the controversy) those guys fixed so many things Including Modding tools and stuff like AutoStruts it was insane.  Bugs that KSP1 was ignoring for years.

So yeah we can look back on KSP1 and say how great it is.. And it is.  But it had its issues and a lot of the community helped fix it.   

No contracts system in KSP2 no big deal, cause there people like me and Arsonide (Or new lot of modders with better ideas) that will add money.. Don't be so concerned.

At least Harvestr was honest about the game. The way things were posted and announced here it was made to seem like the game was working but they were just polishing and making sure all the core features were working.   Maybe modders will fix this some day but I don't think anyone should have to expect unpaid modders to have to rescue a title made by a big publisher.

[RaBDawG]

7 hours ago, Cailean_556 said:

There will be a campaign/career mode - it's now being referred to as 'Exploration mode'. And yes, "Funds" are being dropped in favour of resources. Science is linked to tech progression, however how resources work and how we collect them - especially when in early game, when we have none - is well and truly anyone's guess at this point.

How I see it working is that we start in a barebones, un-upgraded KSC - which is essentially our starting colony on Kerbin. Whether or not there will be others, or we can build others, is also anyone's guess. Though from Matt Lowne's interview with Nate and the dude whose name escapes me (used to be a modder, now works on KSP2), I get the impression there will be up to 4 KSC-type areas on Kerbin during Multiplayer so potentially, this will be mirrored across the Exploration mode. But I digress.

Our initial tech will likely based on the same tech we start with in KSP1, though I would like to see a "pre-manned rocket" beginning (such as Sounding Rockets) - perhaps as an in-game "hidden tutorial" on managing craft and resources in Exploration mode. I'd also like to see more of a focus on unmanned flight first (mimicking our beginnings of space flight) before we start throwing Kerbals up there.

We will likely be encouraged to explore Kerbin itself initially - to locate basic resources and to conduct basic sciences, allowing us to unlock more advanced technology and upgrade our facilities before the "space race" starts in earnest. I believe there will be a narrative interwoven into Exploration mode, to get us to focus on setting goals for reasons as opposed to "Let's just do this thing because we can" - I believe the easter eggs (such as the Mun arch) will play some part in this narrative. When we get to the Mun, we begin the process of exploration, survey, colony building and resource gathering - not all at once, we'll need to gather science data, acquire the technology and resources to support them first. Getting to the Mun and Minmus are the early game - we break into the mid-game with Duna and Eve... Though because of Eve's unique properties, I would prefer that maybe Eve was left for later. Before finally setting our sights on Dres, Jool and Eeloo - though, as teased in the trailer, I see Jool being a sort of end-game ship production area for interstellar vessels.

I also think a Life Support-esque mechanic will play a part in KSP2 though, from what I've read in the Discord and such, it won't (or at least there'll be an option to) be life and death, but it will affect the Kerbal's performance (however it will work in KSP2) if their life support is low. Due to this, long duration manned missions will, or may, not be advised early - relying on unmanned probes, landers and rovers initially (again, mirroring our own space exploration).

I suspect that, as we explore these planets - whether by orbital satellites, landers or rovers - we will come across unique sites/locations/points/areas we will need to research over time and discover unique resources to extract, necessitating the construction of colonies on each planet and moon we visit to continue these. For example, if the Mun arch does indeed play a role in a narrative in Exploration mode, then our initial "science" at/around/on the site gleans very little progress - yet when we visit with more advanced equipment and/or more often, and/or set up a colony devoted to studying this artifact we gain larger chunks of actionable 'science'.

By the time we have the technology to go interstellar, I believe there will be a narrative reason - in addition to our desire to simply explore - for us to go to Debdeb (confirmed to be the first star system added). By this time, we will also have a number of colonies across the Kerbolar system and be extracting the various resources we need to build the rockets we want. From what I also understand, as we discover these resources we, as players, will initially need to do the heavy lifting to extract these resources however at some point we are able to automate these - though what that looks like I do not know.

We will, eventually, be able to build ships in orbit, or at orbital colonies/space stations - so we'll need significant resources and automation to achieve this - especially given the scale of the interstellar ships we'll need to design and the sheer size of the parts we must attach to them.

I'm like you, OP, I only play the career mode. I do have a sandbox game however I only really use that to test my career mode designs before I commit to launching them and it's what I let my kids play around in - where killing Kerbals and making expensive rockets doesn't affect my career game.

So while Funds are going, I think what replaces it will be even better. In my opinion.

Honest question.  How many years do you think until the above is actually playable?  3+ is my guess.   

[Chilkoot]

1 hour ago, GGG-GoodGuyGreg said:

Personally, I'm not as eager about this mechanic, imagine carrying your money newly gathered resources to your home base and you fumble your landing after a long trip and no more resources for you and essentially getting stuck not being able to continue.

The game is introducing the concept of supply routes for managing resources, though you still do need to establish those routes.

Yes, there's risk in "fumbling the ball" trying to build that route, but - think about it -  that's mechanically identical to crashing in Career and having to launch again to fulfill the contract.  Not enough money to launch again?  Too bad for Joo(l)!

Career had its ups and downs, but it was super easy to cheese for infinite money.  Also (when modded) being able to just outright buy super-rare minerals with money you've cheesed felt like a cheat.  I'm looking forward to having to earn He3 contextually and make fusion pellets.  That's not stuff I should be able to just buy over at Jeb's junkyard ahead of my next launch.

[Chilkoot]

1 hour ago, malkuth said:

Rover dude has a big hand in all post 1.0 stuff.

Bob Palmer pretty much invented the ISRU system in KSP1 (USI/MKS), and was then hired by Squad to build that into the game in a simplified form.  Not sure what his current status or involvement with KSP 2 is, but thew new WOLF resource system he designed a few years back looks very similar to what we're hearing about resource gathering and logistics in KSP 2.

As of April 2021, I believe Bob was still at Squad, and we've heard in streams that Squad is now more actively involved in KSP 2 development.  I strongly suspect his design is what we'll be using in Colony and resource play ("Exploration Mode").

[Pthigrivi]

8 hours ago, GGG-GoodGuyGreg said:

We have to wait and see how the devs intend for the progression to be like.

Personally, I'm not as eager about this mechanic, imagine carrying your money newly gathered resources to your home base and you fumble your landing after a long trip and no more resources for you and essentially getting stuck not being able to continue.

 

This early game situation is one of the big unknowns. I don’t think it makes sense to require active resource harvesting on kerbin because it would be too distracting when players first opened the game. There’s already a LOT to unpack in those first 5-10 hours of the game just learning launches and maneuvers and docking. I don’t thing resource harvesting should really come in until after you’ve started your first colony or station. 

We don’t know what will happen before that. Parts could just be free on Kerbin, but that might work as a disincentive to making colonies. It also takes away the incentive to build efficiently, which many of you have noted. There are other ways to go about it though. I’ve mentioned here before that KSC could come equipped with a fuel farm/ resource depot that automatically generated and stored some of the basic resources and could be upgraded to store more and include fancier resources as your tech developed. If the tanks started full you wouldn’t need to think too much about resource costs right away, but as your stockpile reduced you’d need to weigh waiting for it to refill vs upcoming launch windows and maybe depleting snacks and reactor fuel burning away offworld.  You might also be faced with some tech-tree choices, either to invest in a beefier resource depot on KSC or in bigger and better colony resource extraction. 

Nate and Chris did say some interesting things about science and exploration modes in the Scott Manley interview that sound pretty encouraging to me. There will still be missions, but it sounds like those goals will be more rooted other underlying mechanics of the game like ISRU prospecting and harvesting rather than things like random part tests and temperature readings that don't have any utility to the player outside of the contracts explicit rewards. I think the more the game can rest on fundamental mechanics vs randomized, mostly pointless tasks the better. There are lots of great games that rely on this framework entirely. Factorio for instance has no money and no missions at all, but no one would say that makes optimization or efficiency unimportant.
 

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[i dont know how to forum]

I've gotten this message a few times opening the craft I've been working on. Obviously a bug since this is sandbox and resources aren't even implemented yet, but it gives some indication of what to expect. 

Personally, my guess would be that early resources (metal, methane, etc.) will either be unlimited at Kerbin's VAB or you will start with a limited amount and earn basic resources through contracts, just like funds in KSP1. Later resources, like more advanced fuels, would then have to be collected on other planets using through colonies and supply routes.

[Coin]

11 hours ago, RocketRockington said:

So do I have to go gather resources next to KSC like Minecraft before I can launch a rocket?  What do I have to do to get these resources?  Its not very realistic that I have to get weird resources on other planets to build a rocket - as Elon Musk said (paraphrasing), even if there was free cocaine on Mars, it wouldn't be economical to bring it back to Earth.  

It's not like minecraft lol. It's colony building, the thing that everyone and their mother has been creaming over since Kerbal Konstructs came out. And we don't know exactly how it will work, but you can safely assume that you don't need to mine Duna to make a rocket for your first Mun landing. I'd wager that resource collection will be necessary for late-game interstellar vehicles (Orbital construction...), and I have no clue whether you'll need funds or resources in early game!

* Maybe an early 'learning' session would be setting up a custom mining station around the Space Center, to feed you a basic supply of resources for early rockets. The KSC is considered a colony, after all. I really have no idea, but I'm interested in how it will play out. Come to think of it, maybe KSC resources will be handled at the Administration Building! I have no idea! LOL

Edited February 26, 2023 by Coin
guessing

[malkuth]

I would think that kerbin itself would be an unlimited resource center for all the basic resources needed to make the few first stages of rockets.. You know satellites + Mun landers.  The next stage might need resources from say the Mun or Minmus to get kerbals to Duna and Jool system.  And finally the Duna and Jool systems will be the last leg before resources needed for Interstellar.   Oh forgot EVE... Im sure Eve will be a requirement too..

[GregA]

If I were the level designer for a gamified KSP, I would have it set up so that once the infrastructure is in place, the Kerbol engineers have the resources from a particular celestial body.  Then make the Kerbols themselves the probe cores.  So to get the particular set of unobtanium that is on Tylo, you need a laboratory and a big ISRU drill working on surface of Tylo, and radio contact, and 2 Kerbols in the lab then as long as that condition remains true the VAB has access to that resource.  

Then that makes objectives like, Get enough kerbols for the base.  Which would be scouting and rescue return missions.  A Sat com network.  And whatever the prerequisites were for the particular ISRU structure.  

I would get rid of the concept of money and limited resources that needs to be spent, because that inhibits experimentation.

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by GregA

[Cailean_556]

16 hours ago, RaBDawG said:

Honest question.  How many years do you think until the above is actually playable?  3+ is my guess.   

Maybe, for all the components to be in place. I'd prefer less than that, obviously. But considering KSP1s life cycle, and the life cycle of other games that enter EA - dev time is measured in years, sadly. You can always hope for the best, but I think it would be unhealthy to expect anything more than one major milestone per year.

[Periple]

16 hours ago, RaBDawG said:

Honest question.  How many years do you think until the above is actually playable?  3+ is my guess.   

It's hard to guess without knowing what stage of development they're in now. If they don't exist at all, then I'd go with 1-2 years. If the designs and fundamentals already are in place, 6 months to a year. If they're already implemented but just completely unbalanced and so bug-ridden they're not playable, could be less than 6 months. 

A complete gut feeling seat of the pants guess that somebody will totally hold me to? September 2023.

[Superfluous J]

 

On 2/25/2023 at 6:59 PM, RaBDawG said:

On 2/25/2023 at 6:58 PM, dylsh said:

What are you talking about? Where did you read this? Did the developers actually say this?

https://steamcommunity.com/app/954850/discussions/0/3772364949848937904/

I could very well be wrong, but I do not recognize Steam User Actionjackson as a Kerbal Space Program 2 developer.

This seems to me to be the classic case of the end user not seeing the whole picture.

Imagine if cars weren't a thing but the Internet was, and some company announced this invention they were working on where  you could get in, push a button or turn a key or a crank, and then just go places.

Q: So does it use horses or does it use some other animal to pull it?
A: No animals will pull this new invention, the automobile!
Q: What!? Why would someone ever buy one of these when it won't even go! What am I supposed to do push it myself!? AUTO mobile indeed, what a piece of garbage this company has no idea what they're doing!

Headline: Automobile or autoNObile? The answer may surprise you!

[Space Ace]

Well... I knew there wasn't going to be any ingame money in KSP2 - just resources. Then again - money is just another resource if you look at it.

Some people here are getting very passionate about what they don't have it seems.

I was passionate enough to watch pretty much every interview about KSP I could find and this change from KSP1 to KSP2 was mentioned. However it was at least one year ago, if not more.

I've played KSP1 long before Career mode was introduced and I had a LOT of fun.

I guess I will also have a lot of fun with KSP2 while not having to worry about money.

[MarcAbaddon]

The lack of money is not at the list of my concerns, but I think there's a bit of an issue with the early game involved in that. Resources start making sense as the primary restraint once you start setting up colonies, but a big chunk of the early game will be pre-colony.

[magnemoe]

21 hours ago, RocketRockington said:

So do I have to go gather resources next to KSC like Minecraft before I can launch a rocket?  What do I have to do to get these resources?  Its not very realistic that I have to get weird resources on other planets to build a rocket - as Elon Musk said (paraphrasing), even if there was free cocaine on Mars, it wouldn't be economical to bring it back to Earth.  

Not sure how resources will be handled on Kerbin, farming it outside KSC would be a bit stupid, done that, back then kerbals was idiotic expensive then you got many of them I build an huge mining rig to mine expensive minerals and drove it 3 km south, I then sent out tankers to fill up and recover  

For colonies this makes sense however, you can not buy fuel on Duna you have to make it. 
This also balance out the more advanced engines as its harder to produce nuclear bombs than methane. 

[Leopard]

seems the best way is to have funds to buy stuff on Kerbin, but have resources available elsewhere.

e.g. you need 100 tons of %WHATEVER% on the Mun, you can buy it on Kerbin, then get it there yourself, or send the kit to source it locally and have something that produces %WHATEVER% at a rate of "x" per day when powered

then some stuff thats only available off planet, or is very expensive on planet so its cheaper to go find it

ideally with the ability to set up a pre-funded route once you have flown it once (say a monthly lift of %WHATEVER% that takes 100t to the mun, at a cost so as a player you only have to fly the pathfinder missions and go explore.

otherwise you are going to have a limited number of resource points of various types, which for all purposes can be considered multiple currencies at which point you may as well call them that

[modus]

On 2/26/2023 at 3:39 PM, Chilkoot said:

Bob Palmer pretty much invented the ISRU system in KSP1 (USI/MKS), and was then hired by Squad to build that into the game in a simplified form.  Not sure what his current status or involvement with KSP 2 is, but thew new WOLF resource system he designed a few years back looks very similar to what we're hearing about resource gathering and logistics in KSP 2.

As of April 2021, I believe Bob was still at Squad, and we've heard in streams that Squad is now more actively involved in KSP 2 development.  I strongly suspect his design is what we'll be using in Colony and resource play ("Exploration Mode").

Maybe a long shot, but @RoverDude, did you in fact work on ksp2? (Totally ok if you can't comment on that)

Edit: I remember him saying in the mks or usi thread (best suite of mods in the game imo) that he was 'living the dream' when he was asked about his involvement with ksp 1 and 2, but some time later he said something about him making an indie game with robots. I should look it up.

Edited February 27, 2023 by modus

[Chilkoot]

2 minutes ago, modus said:

Maybe a long shot, but @RoverDude, did you in fact work on ksp2? (Totally ok if you can't comment on that)

Would love to know more, too.  That Adderley guy's getting tons of screen time, but we want to know more about what Bob's been up to!

[Bej Kerman]

Are people seriously only just learning KSP 1's half-baked excuse for gameplay isn't being done 1:1 in KSP 2, and is being replaced with adventure mode?

[RoverDude]

1 hour ago, modus said:

Maybe a long shot, but @RoverDude, did you in fact work on ksp2? (Totally ok if you can't comment on that)

Edit: I remember him saying in the mks or usi thread (best suite of mods in the game imo) that he was 'living the dream' when he was asked about his involvement with ksp 1 and 2, but some time later he said something about him making an indie game with robots. I should look it up.

Did a bunch of art for KSP2, not code or design this go around.  

 

1 hour ago, Chilkoot said:

Would love to know more, too.  That Adderley guy's getting tons of screen time, but we want to know more about what Bob's been up to!

Been neck deep building a new indie game with @DoktorKrogg for over a year now.  The fun part being that we get to build the game we always wanted to play.  The not fun part  being that it's not done yet - though we're pretty stoked about where it is (and there's a lot to be said for being 100% greenfield), and having a blast! 

Edited February 27, 2023 by RoverDude

[modus]

7 hours ago, RoverDude said:

Did a bunch of art for KSP2, not code or design this go around.  

 

Been neck deep building a new indie game with @DoktorKrogg for over a year now.  The fun part being that we get to build the game we always wanted to play.  The not fun part  being that it's not done yet - though we're pretty stoked about where it is (and there's a lot to be said for being 100% greenfield), and having a blast! 

Thanks for the info sir dude, best of luck to you and @DoktorKrogg! Greetings from a fan