To the KSP 2 Dev Team

[RayneCloud]

I know you're working hard, and no doubt heads down and all hands on deck working on new content, features, bug fixes and performance... but please talk to us. Talk to the community. We need open, clear, concise communication regarding plans,  please. Even something as simple as "hey Kerbonauts, we're hard at work on the first patch right now that will focus on performance and critical bug fixing." In an EA environment like this, you should probably be talking to the community at least on a weekly basis. It will help with morale with in the community.  

On a side note, you're doing great, keep it up, lots of us are rooting for you and KSP 2 as a whole!  This is going to be another grand adventure, and lots of us know that  "Things can only get better."  

Much love and respect.

[The Aziz]

Unless it changed, they have meetings every other Friday. So update on what's happening (not necessarily game update cuz who knows what stage they're at) on Friday would be on point.

[Snafu225]

I survived my excursion to the discord.
Those are the tldr/most important snippets from @PD_Dakota (I hope that's okay Dakota)

for the non-germans:
heute = today (28.02.23)
gestern = yesterday (27.02.23)

Edited February 28, 2023 by Snafu225

[TheArturro]

Maybe not the devs (they should focus on fixing the game), but at least community-managers should reach out to us. There is a strange miscommunication problem going on with the game. On thursday devs and mods on discord had the "BIG KSP2 NEWS TMRW" banner but it all came down to nothing (AFAIK). Then they opened discord channel for feedback and a moment later told us to not post it there but on the forum instead. It's nowhere near being a big problem but it is confusing and hints at a bigger problem.

I have a strong feeling that everything is so insanely rushed here, that they are effectively negating any good communication and effor on their part. Is it possible that devs simply didn't know about the hard-limit release date set by publisher or just forgot about it?

What is the strongest point of the game right now? T U T O R I A L S. The one thing devs kept talking about in every interview that I've watched. New tutorials truly are great but they are meaningless to hardcore KSP fans, who are obviously the only people actually participating in this Early Access. 

 

EDIT: Obviously (I hope) the decision about tutorials was made by the publisher. But it still makes little sense to make them the "center" of EA.

 

 

Edited February 28, 2023 by TheArturro
My take on reasoning behind tutorials taking the spotlight.

[RayneCloud]

6 minutes ago, Snafu225 said:

I survived my excursion to the discord.
Those are the tldr/most important snippets from @PD_Dakota (I hope that's okay Dakota)

for the non-germans:
heute = today (28.02.23)
gestern = yesterday (27.02.23)

Thanks. I stay wel laway from the discord.

[Fullmetal Analyst]

1 hour ago, TheArturro said:

What is the strongest point of the game right now? T U T O R I A L S. The one thing devs kept talking about in every interview that I've watched. New tutorials truly are great but they are meaningless to hardcore KSP fans, who are obviously the only people actually participating in this Early Access. 

thats likely because they never intended to do an EA release, they were forced by T2 to release this mess because they were unable to keep any shedules, and now T2 is almost as angry as the kraken who was just wounded instead of slain

[kerbiloid]

Just had read on another forum "...and why am I not able to switch off the construction tutorial?!".

Idk, didn't try myself.

[Lisias]

1 hour ago, Fullmetal Analyst said:

thats likely because they never intended to do an EA release, they were forced by T2 to release this mess because they were unable to keep any shedules, and now T2 is almost as angry as the kraken who was just wounded instead of slain

I second that. This huge krapfest on the Early Access is Management's fault, not dev's.

The devs are way over the schedule, and this is indeed their responsibility.

But any backslash on the franchise due the Early Access being problematic is Management's fault, and they are the ones that should answer for the consequences.

Edited February 28, 2023 by Lisias
better emphasis

[Profugo Barbatus]

1 minute ago, Lisias said:

I second that. This huge krapfest on the Early Access is Management's fault, not dev's.

The devs are way over the schedule, and this is indeed their responsibility.

But any backslash on the franchise due the Early Access being problematic is Management's fault, and they are the ones that should answer for the consequences.

Why's it gotta be one or the other? Management screwed over the devs by forcing out the gate if they did so - but the devs screwed over management by struggling to contain their scope so well. In a perfect world, management would be responsible for keeping scope in line right from day one, but in a realistic world, the bean counters don't want to spend too much time diving into game design - they know its not what they're good at, so when the team says "Yea we think we can do it" a good management team trust the devs and lets 'em try.

Success and Failure are shared across the space, most offices aren't like TV and funny internet stories where management slinks off from disaster to disaster leaving the team holding the bag. I've seen more leadership shuffled than dev team shuffled in my own career experience because good leadership goes to bat for a team, and tends to take the hit when push comes to shove.

[Lisias]

20 hours ago, Profugo Barbatus said:

Why's it gotta be one or the other?

False dichotomy, I didn't said devs are not responsible for the mess. The development was and probably is problematic, and I stated that on my post.

By the launch decision is over the Management shoulders. It's their call, this is exactly the reason they were hired at first place.

Developers are responsible for development. As long the devs don't lie to their bosses, they aren't in fault for launching problems - and if they lied to their bosses, it's up to their bosses to take action on the problem the same.

 

20 hours ago, Profugo Barbatus said:

Management screwed over the devs by forcing out the gate if they did so - but the devs screwed over management by struggling to contain their scope so well.

But since the last word about the launching is from Management, they are the ones that will answer for the consequences.

It's simple like that, and it's the very reason Companies hire Managers at first place.

 

20 hours ago, Profugo Barbatus said:

In a perfect world, management would be responsible for keeping scope in line right from day one, but in a realistic world, the bean counters don't want to spend too much time diving into game design - they know its not what they're good at, so when the team says "Yea we think we can do it" a good management team trust the devs and lets 'em try.

The management is responsible for keeping scope in line from day one, it's on the Job Description!

It's up to them to decide who is trustable and who is not, its part of their job in the same way writing reliable code is dev's job!

Dude, this is the whole point on hiring Managers!!!!

 

20 hours ago, Profugo Barbatus said:

Success and Failure are shared across the space, most offices aren't like TV and funny internet stories where management slinks off from disaster to disaster leaving the team holding the bag. 

Failures are collective, successes are individual - this mantra only works between peers. Once you have a boss on the circuit, this dude is the one going to be credited for the results - again, we hire Managers for a reason.

 

20 hours ago, Profugo Barbatus said:

I've seen more leadership shuffled than dev team shuffled in my own career experience because good leadership goes to bat for a team, and tends to take the hit when push comes to shove.

And this is not exactly what I had said on my previous post?  

Manager: "We need to go EA in February".

Now we have two options:

1. Devs: "We can't deliver a good and reliable product by that date". But the Manager says it will be launched anyway.
2. Devs: "Yes, sir. We will launch on EA in February without problems". And the Manager believed them.

In both cases, is still over the Management's shoulders the responsibility of explaining the Share Holders why they are going to lose money this month.

If management insisted on the launch against the dev's recommendation, he made a huge mistake on not believing the devs.

If the dev team had lied to him, he made a huge mistake on hiring unreliable people for the job.

In a way or another, the Manager made a huge mistake.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Lisias
Hit "save" too soon.

[Profugo Barbatus]

19 minutes ago, Lisias said:

The management is responsible for keeping scope in line from day one, it's on the Job Description!

It's up to them to decide who is trustable and who is not, its part of their job in the same way writing reliable code is dev's job!

Dude, this is the whole point on hiring Managers!!!!

I get the feeling you've never actually run a software project - Managers are about as far from understanding the scope and complexity of the work being done as one can get. They rely on the developers, Subject Matter Experts specifically, to feed information up to them. Optimism and enthusiasm in the development team can affect the results, but its not nearly as simple as "Who to trust and who to not" because software development is extremely complex and the guy who got the last eight guesses right may completely whiff the ninth guess on timeliness because of a dozen different unforeseen complications. There is no malice or incompetence, because it all operates under gut feelings and 'best guess' operations. 

I highly recommend you look up the concept of "RACI" - you seem to be attributing a lot to higher management as a task, as opposed to something they are informed of. There's no universal distribution of the different segments, but management tends to occupy the Consulted and Informed spaces, they're not responsible for actively managing or delivering the scope constraints and changes. Otherwise you end up with the nightmare of trying to explain why the team wants an extra week to refactor a core loop in the resource module to avoid an edgecase where ships yeetus deletus all their fuel, to someone who doesn't really understand the actual impact of this. As opposed to them being informed that a SME who developed the original resource function has signed off on this as being a worthwhile change to avoid risk, and just needs a rubber stamp. 

22 minutes ago, Lisias said:

Now we have two options:

1. Devs: "We can't deliver a good and reliable product by that date". But the Manager says it will be launched anyway.
2. Devs: "Yes, sir. We will launch on EA in February without problems". And the Manager believed them.

In both cases, is still over the Management's shoulders the responsibility of explaining the Share Holders why they are going to lose money this month.

You've neglected option 3 - Devs: "Probably? If these things we're working on come together, and Dave's feeling pretty optimistic about them, I think I can make that work". And the Management says "alright, best answer we've got, lets try for it". And by the time people realize that Dave could not work his wizardry this time, its too late to change plans without massive community backlash. I cannot count the number of times in my own career that "Yea this should be a two day job based on what we know" turns into an all hands on deck three week nightmare because of completely benign, unpredictable factors suddenly reared their ugly head.

Software development is extremely hard, and there's a reason that people we consider responsible for bad projects/release are rarely held accountable - the people actually doing the work know how hard and variable it is. Companies don't like to just casually witch hunt their staff or management for trying their best, that's how you end up with mass departures. Leadership isn't going to hang around to be under the guillotine for every developer decision, and developers aren't going to hang around just for their input, optimism, and pessimism to be ignored in favor of corporate mandates.

Project Management is an art form, not a science. All the 'clearly delineated' roles and 'foolproof' processes fall apart immediately in favor of what works, stuff constantly shifts around, deliverables go in and out of the window all the time, and that's in a well managed one. It is incredibly difficult, and even a good result often looks like a pale imitation of the original plan. 

[Periple]

In gamedev we always blame the producers. Everybody hates them anyway and it keeps us from blaming each other. That's what they're paid for.

[Dakota]

Just popping my head in here that we're rethinking our comms strategy to make sure any info shared through the Discord is mirrored here. We're around and listening and interacting on Discord and socials, but we definitely have not been giving the forums the time you all deserve. 

[Profugo Barbatus]

47 minutes ago, PD_Dakota said:

Just popping my head in here that we're rethinking our comms strategy to make sure any info shared through the Discord is mirrored here. We're around and listening and interacting on Discord and socials, but we definitely have not been giving the forums the time you all deserve. 

Glad to hear it! Discord is nice and all, but its all but impossible to keep up with anything that is going on when I actually have a job to pay attention to, times 40 other servers that also want me to exclusively watching their feeds and 'engaging' to actually see anything. Forums/Steam News are so much better as I actually get a feed, don't get \@spams all day and night, and can review whats what when I actually get time in my life.

[Kerbart]

1 hour ago, PD_Dakota said:

Just popping my head in here that we're rethinking our comms strategy to make sure any info shared through the Discord is mirrored here. We're around and listening and interacting on Discord and socials, but we definitely have not been giving the forums the time you all deserve. 

Well, what you're doing right now is important -- letting the players know "we're aware of your pain, we're working around the clock for fixes. But a patch needs to make things better, not worse, so we're doing extensive testing before releasing." That's all.

Nothing is more frustrating for us tham after the release on Friday morning, being confronted with what best can be described at a steaming heap of pieces, and total radio silence. No time tables needed, or miracles.

And don't ignore the forums, please. It might not be as cool as twitter or discord, it is where your most loyal fans have been hanging out for the past ten years. They deserve better than being forced to go to the discord cesspit to get updates.

[dragonart777]

1 hour ago, PD_Dakota said:

Just popping my head in here that we're rethinking our comms strategy to make sure any info shared through the Discord is mirrored here. We're around and listening and interacting on Discord and socials, but we definitely have not been giving the forums the time you all deserve. 

thank you for popping in.  so happy to know your all still with us

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

14 hours ago, Snafu225 said:

I survived my excursion to the discord.
Those are the tldr/most important snippets from @PD_Dakota (I hope that's okay Dakota)

for the non-germans:
heute = today (28.02.23)
gestern = yesterday (27.02.23)

Why is this feedback only on the freaking discord?!?

 

1 hour ago, PD_Dakota said:

Just popping my head in here that we're rethinking our comms strategy to make sure any info shared through the Discord is mirrored here. We're around and listening and interacting on Discord and socials, but we definitely have not been giving the forums the time you all deserve. 

I'm sorry,  but we have been here with the game for YEARS and as soon as you guys opened that chaos factory (Discord) you dropped us like a hot rock.

Bad decision.

I'm going to remind you that several weeks ago, you and @Ghostii_Space said you'd keep the forums updated... and you're still rethinking strategy? 

 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2023 by JoeSchmuckatelli

[Lisias]

8 hours ago, Profugo Barbatus said:

I highly recommend you look up the concept of "RACI" - you seem to be attributing a lot to higher management as a task, as opposed to something they are informed of.

I recommend some PMI instead.

 

8 hours ago, Profugo Barbatus said:

You've neglected option 3 - Devs: "Probably? If these things we're working on come together, and Dave's feeling pretty optimistic about them, I think I can make that work". And the Management says "alright, best answer we've got, lets try for it". And by the time people realize that Dave could not work his wizardry this time, its too late to change plans without massive community backlash. I cannot count the number of times in my own career that "Yea this should be a two day job based on what we know" turns into an all hands on deck three week nightmare because of completely benign, unpredictable factors suddenly reared their ugly head.

I just didn't believed that the devs, honestly, would think that the current state of the game would be viable for  User consumption even on Early Access, so, yeah, this didn't crossed my mind.

If you are right, people involved on this launch had shown some serious poor decision making skills.

 

8 hours ago, Profugo Barbatus said:

Project Management is an art form, not a science. 

Well, so perhaps PD should hire Iron Maiden or Metallica for managing the development so?  

In a way or another, being an Art or a Science, Managing is about Accountability and Responsibility. Absolutely none of your arguments is changing that. This launch gone south terribly, and I doubt the costs of the firefighting will overcome any benefit (monetary or not) this stunt will render.

I'm seeing a Death March coming over the dev team, with all the nasty consequences not only to the developers but to the final product itself. History repeats itself. But now on an AAA budget.

 

That said, your opinion on the subject is clear and you are not going to change it. Same for me, so we need to agree on disagree on the matter.

None of us have our bacon on the game anyway.

[kerbiloid]

Both devs and (mans? mangrs?) are responsible for making the already existing game need dramatically more for giving pathetically less, because they had the KSP-1 source code, the numerous open-source mods, and four years to steal from there everything they require or doubt in, to make the game at least not worse.

So, in the competition between the manager's Greed, the developer's Vanity, and their common Messing About, yet nobody wins, but the game loses.

The absence of the developers' in-game videos was a flashing indicator.
It would be understandable for a totally new game, but not for the clone of already existing one. 
What so much secret-schmecret could we see here, except the fact of the actually running development?

The silly bugs demonstrating the absence of elementary testing is also an achievement of both parties, development and management.

Edited March 1, 2023 by kerbiloid

[RayneCloud]

9 hours ago, PD_Dakota said:

Just popping my head in here that we're rethinking our comms strategy to make sure any info shared through the Discord is mirrored here. We're around and listening and interacting on Discord and socials, but we definitely have not been giving the forums the time you all deserve. 

Very glad to hear this Dakota, thank you.

Though, this does seem like quite the oversight. May I ask why the forums are an afterthought requiring a "re think in strategy" when they've been the major focal point of community interaction since the start of KSP 1?

I understand the need to focus on content generation platforms like twitter, facebook, insta, tik tok, etc... and to focus on real time community engagement in discord, but the forums (as old as forum tech is) are integral to the KSP Community Experience. That's why I pushed for VB5 Connect upgrades back in the day moving away from PHPBB and why Invision Community seems to be an industry leader in community focused software and why no doubt it was the chosen platform for the forums we have now. 

My love and respect to you and the team. Keep up the good work and the open lines of communication. 

Edited March 1, 2023 by RayneCloud

[Mutex]

16 minutes ago, RayneCloud said:

Though, this does seem like quite the oversight. May I ask why the forums are an afterthought requiring a "re think in strategy" when they've been the major focal point of community interaction since the start of KSP 1?

My guess is it's down to visibility / reach. Twitter is completely public so potentially millions of people are seeing any interactions. I don't know how the Discord compares with here in terms of user count though.

[RayneCloud]

2 minutes ago, Mutex said:

My guess is it's down to visibility / reach. Twitter is completely public so potentially millions of people are seeing any interactions. I don't know how the Discord compares with here in terms of user count though.

That makes sense, but not having at least a comm's mirroring in effect for the start point and foundation of the community is a bit of an oversight. I'm not upset tho, and I mean no disrespect to Dakota and the team. 

[Vl3d]

10 hours ago, PD_Dakota said:

Just popping my head in here that we're rethinking our comms strategy to make sure any info shared through the Discord is mirrored here. We're around and listening and interacting on Discord and socials, but we definitely have not been giving the forums the time you all deserve. 

The forums have the most in-depth and competent feedback, with pros and cons opinions considered in discussions. Also it's where the modders and veterans reside. The forums are gold for EA.

[The Aziz]

7 minutes ago, Mutex said:

My guess is it's down to visibility / reach. Twitter is completely public so potentially millions of people are seeing any interactions. I don't know how the Discord compares with here in terms of user count though.

Yeah but having to count on other users to forward information from other social media channels... That is the CM's job, innit? Not everyone uses all the platforms, some use the forums exclusively. And since the structure is somewhat similar to chat form of discord, unlike twitter, insta etc, having a place to post updates (that hopefully won't get lost in a minute) should be a thing.

[Mutex]

10 hours ago, PD_Dakota said:

Just popping my head in here that we're rethinking our comms strategy to make sure any info shared through the Discord is mirrored here. We're around and listening and interacting on Discord and socials, but we definitely have not been giving the forums the time you all deserve. 

One thing I'd like to know, are the bugs reported in the Bug Reports forum being forwarded to developers (after being validated / de-duped of course)?

Just now, The Aziz said:

Yeah but having to count on other users to forward information from other social media channels... That is the CM's job, innit? Not everyone uses all the platforms, some use the forums exclusively. And since the structure is somewhat similar to chat form of discord, unlike twitter, insta etc, having a place to post updates (that hopefully won't get lost in a minute) should be a thing.

Yeah I absolutely agree with you and Rayne that they should have at least been mirroring any announcements here from the start. Still, at least they're going to do that from now on.