Cadet Orientation???

[MechBFP]

1 minute ago, Bej Kerman said:

Relying on a popup to communicate the purpose of a UI element isn't good.

Once again, don’t care. The game has bigger fish to fry. 

[Bej Kerman]

18 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

Once again, don’t care.

And?

18 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

The game has bigger fish to fry. 

Small mistakes build up.

[Vl3d]

Just use "Tutorial".

[Pat20999]

This is exactly what the community wants; a clear tutorial option for the community, so stop complaining.

[Bej Kerman]

7 minutes ago, Pat20999 said:

This is exactly what the community wants; a clear tutorial option for the community, so stop complaining.

Firstly, we're not talking about the First Time User Experience itself, we're talking about what it's called and the impact this has on the game's UX. If anything, making the wording less clear is literally the opposite of a clear tutorial option. Secondly, we're allowed to criticise things and we don't have to ask any single member if we can complain about something.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Bej Kerman

[pandaman]

Yeah 'Cadet Orientation' is very confusing.  How about...

Cadet Mode (for first time players)

[The Aziz]

If we can agree on keeping the cadet part, which I could go for.. cadet introduction? Cadet Training? That sounds simple enough.

[Vl3d]

Cadet training or tutorial..

[Mikki]

I guess for people like me... Can haz `Rampant Rocket Nut` option in the tutorial?  

Just kidding..... but hey!

[Dakota]

10 hours ago, Periple said:

I think it ought to be a preference! It’s super annoying when I always forget to switch it off in the new campaign screen!

In For Science!, you will be able to disable Cadet Orientation at any time via the settings menu.

[Pthigrivi]

I will say at least our pedantic debates are about somewhat real things recently. Thats nice to see. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[Vl3d]

5 hours ago, Dakota said:

In For Science!, you will be able to disable Cadet Orientation at any time via the settings menu.

Wow, respect! That was a requested feature for a lot of players.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Vl3d

[The Aziz]

Aaand it still sounds weird.

No, seriously, that orientation thing. If it's really a localization issue, there are more commonly used synonyms that would work better. Especially for that kind of people who may have never heard of such thing at work/school/whatever. In a world where orientation is used more and more often in a completely different context, you need to stay clear of things that require further explanation even for, ironically, first time user experience. Especially when it's the second thing they see after launching the exe.

I know you can do better.

[Periple]

It's not very ESL friendly that's for sure! 

Even so if this is the kind of thing we're obsessing about, the game is in much better shape than I thought!

[Wheehaw Kerman]

22 hours ago, Periple said:

Oh well, at least we moved on from arguing about the navball position!

Only a Cadet would put the navball on the lower left!

*ducks, runs, hides*

[The Aziz]

8 hours ago, Periple said:

Even so if this is the kind of thing we're obsessing about, the game is in much better shape than I thought!

Readability and ease of use are among those things that always deserve special care.

But, unfortunately, my experiences so far with this title tell me it isn't. The further we go, the worse it gets.

[Bej Kerman]

9 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Aaand it still sounds weird.

No, seriously, that orientation thing. If it's really a localization issue, there are more commonly used synonyms that would work better. Especially for that kind of people who may have never heard of such thing at work/school/whatever. In a world where orientation is used more and more often in a completely different context, you need to stay clear of things that require further explanation even for, ironically, first time user experience. Especially when it's the second thing they see after launching the exe.

I know you can do better.

Amen to that.

Writing that's trying to be clever or in-character is best kept in character dialog and flavour text. I appreciate Jim's thought but I don't think the main menu is the time or place for it.

[Just Jim]

36 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Amen to that.

Writing that's trying to be clever or in-character is best kept in character dialog and flavour text. I appreciate Jim's thought but I don't think the main menu is the time or place for it.

OK, I can make no promises. This was a group decision, and changing it will also have to be a group decision.
It is already way too late to change anything for 0.2 (a new name would have to be re-localized and all that)
But if this is going to be an issue for some players, then I will bring it up to the team after the Christmas break and see what they think.

[Spicat]

For the acronym I think it's just because every other language use an acronym (Maybe Asian languages are different but I don't know the characters):

Spoiler

I don't know why exactly, seems a bit weird that only English has this privilege.

 

But apart from that, I would argue that "First Time User Experience" doesn't mean much by itself. We understand what it is after launching our first campaign but the first time I played ksp2 I didn't know what it was before reading the lateral menu. It can also be confused by an easy mode for beginner or something else.

I understand why they changed it to "Cadet Orientation" because it tells us that this is an option for orienting the player. And the explanation literally explains that it's separated from the tutorials (Which is still accessible without this option), so it can't really be named "Tutorials".

6 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

OK, I can make no promises. This was a group decision, and changing it will also have to be a group decision.
It is already way too late to change anything for 0.2 (a new name would have to be re-localized and all that)
But if this is going to be an issue for some players, then I will bring it up to the team after the Christmas break and see what they think.

For me I would just change it to "Beginner Orientation" because it's a more common word but I don't think it's more confusing than "First Time User Experience".

(Also, I noticed that only English has an explanation in the lateral menu, the other just have one sentence, it would be great to have the same as English in other languages)

Edited November 17, 2023 by Spicat

[Periple]

I think this is really trivial but orientation in this sense is an Americanism and sounds wrong to people who speak a different flavor of English or are ESL. It would be nice to keep that in mind for UI elements even if things go a bit nuts in flavor text!

[MechBFP]

1 minute ago, Periple said:

I think this is really trivial but orientation in this sense is an Americanism and sounds wrong to people who speak a different flavor of English or are ESL. It would be nice to keep that in mind for UI elements even if things go a bit nuts in flavor text!

“Beginner Help” or “Beginner Guide” since as Spicat mentioned tutorial is actually not the best term since the tutorials are actually a separate item. 

Although IMO this has already wasted dev time and will now continue to waste even more time than it has any right to. 
 

*community nitpicks every little thing*
*game never gets finished*
*surprised pikachu face*

[Spicat]

2 minutes ago, Periple said:

I think this is really trivial but orientation in this sense is an Americanism and sounds wrong to people who speak a different flavor of English or are ESL. It would be nice to keep that in mind for UI elements even if things go a bit nuts in flavor text!

This is not my first language so that's maybe why I found it perfectly fine.

Do you think that "Cadet guidance" would be better then? Or "Beginner guidance" like my proposition.

[Bej Kerman]

9 minutes ago, Spicat said:

But apart from that, I would argue that "First Time User Experience" doesn't mean much by itself. We understand what it is after launching our first campaign but the first time I played ksp2 I didn't know what it was before reading the lateral menu.

"First Time" is a phrase most of the audience learns in primary school, and the sentence immediately following this ("It can also be confused by an easy mode for beginner or something else") demonstrates that the wording did give you an intuition for who the option is aimed at. "Cadet Orientation" is the complete opposite and is composed of words a lot more people might be compelled to google before hazarding any guesses on why it's called that.

1 minute ago, Spicat said:

This is not my first language so that's maybe why I found it perfectly fine.

I'm curious then, were you learning what words like "cadet" meant before you got round to learning words like "first" and "time"?

Edited November 17, 2023 by Bej Kerman

[Pthigrivi]

I don't know Cadet Orientation seems cute within the framing of the game. I think it's fine. 

[Spicat]

7 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

"First Time" is a phrase most of the audience learns in primary school, and the sentence immediately following this ("It can also be confused by an easy mode for beginner or something else") demonstrates that the wording did give you an intuition for who the option is aimed at. "Cadet Orientation" is the complete opposite and is composed of words a lot more people might be compelled to google before hazarding any guesses on why it's called that.

An intuition is not really good enough.

Also why did you ignore my sentence where I literally say that I would replace "Cadet" by "Beginner"? Isn't it a good proposition? 

At least I find it better than "First Time User Experience".

7 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

I'm curious then, were you learning what words like "cadet" meant before you got round to learning words like "first" and "time"?

The message I'm replying to only talk about the "orientation" part.

And to answer you, in my language you won't use first time in there, it would be a bit weird. That's why they translated it to something a bit different. Also cadet is a french word (my language), so I have maybe learned "cadet" before "first time" in english lol (I was pretty bad at it when I was young).