Negative things about the game, development, and the silence

[caipi]

I really dislike how Nate hasn't even been online in this forum since June 11th, much less said goodbye. It's not like I would have expected an apology for not being up to the task or for all the (very obvious) repurposed bovine waste he presented us over the past few years.  But the fact that he just silently took off, not looking back. Apparently not caring about this awesome community, not feeling at the least bit connected to it. I think it says a lot.

[chefsbrian]

2 hours ago, caipi said:

I really dislike how Nate hasn't even been online in this forum since June 11th, much less said goodbye. It's not like I would have expected an apology for not being up to the task or for all the (very obvious) repurposed bovine waste he presented us over the past few years.  But the fact that he just silently took off, not looking back. Apparently not caring about this awesome community, not feeling at the least bit connected to it. I think it says a lot.

Probably for the best. There's not a single thing that he can say that wouldn't, at best, be a mass ban generating event. At worst, the sort of thing that ends up with people having federal agents knocking at doors asking about certain statements posters made. In return for all that, we'd get nothing. There is nothing he can say, nothing he can promise - both in the literal sense and in the authority sense. Nobody will believe a word he has to say, nobody will believe any apologies he makes are genuine, and he no longer has any authority or power to act upon any promises or statements he may want to make.

For better or for worse, Nate is poison in this community and franchise now. He can probably never touch KSP again in his career, and quite likely can't touch the space genre as a whole from any leadership or authority position. Too much bad blood that people actually know of, words spread inside the general niche, and the likely same story goes for any early access or indie projects. He'd have to wander off into sports, or shooters, all mainstream stuff under major publishers where barely anyone knows about people like creative directors, to avoid damaging projects he's associated with. 

[jost]

20 hours ago, caipi said:

I really dislike how Nate hasn't even been online in this forum since June 11th, much less said goodbye. It's not like I would have expected an apology for not being up to the task or for all the (very obvious) repurposed bovine waste he presented us over the past few years.  But the fact that he just silently took off, not looking back. Apparently not caring about this awesome community, not feeling at the least bit connected to it. I think it says a lot.

You wouldn't care too about "the community" of your former employers product after signing a NDA.  It's silly to assume that somebody would risk a court battle just to "defend their honour" to a community whose most toxic members  wouldn't accept this defense anyhow. What would be the point in this?

[PDCWolf]

55 minutes ago, jost said:

You wouldn't care too about "the community" of your former employers product after signing a NDA.  It's silly to assume that somebody would risk a court battle just to "defend their honour" to a community whose most toxic members  wouldn't accept this defense anyhow. What would be the point in this?

He doesn't need to defend anything. I think it's what the poster themselves said: He could come and just say goodbye, not even sorry if he didn't wanted to, and he'll still get used as tomato throwing target, to put it lightly. The absolute best he can do is not look back, like he has done exactly with all the uber entertainment titles and the HR backers left in the water.

[Alpha_star]

16 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

I think it's what the poster themselves said: He could come and just say goodbye, not even sorry if he didn't wanted to, and he'll still get used as tomato throwing target, to put it lightly.

People like attatcching their emotions on something in real life instead of something abstract like a "game studio" or a "corperation", most of the time it's a person and in this case it's Nate Simpson. Some people hate KSP2 and since it's Nate who shows in front of us most of the time it would be natural that they redirect their negatives to Nate himself.

[para 9]

Why were people, myself among them, so sure this project would fail as soon as soon as it was announced with Nate as the lead?

Check out this old reddit post, for instance. 

 

Quote

Why are yall so tsure that ksp2 is going to get abandoned. Why are yall so sure that ksp2 is just a cashgrab, done by nate simpson, who is known to have been the CD on other failed games.

I get that everyones frustrated, or even angry at the release (if you can even call it that). I get that nate simpson doesnt have the best track record and i also get that even (self-proclaimed) programmers cringe at some of the programming in the game.

But how does that make sense? They have been working on this game for 3 years and comparing the game from launch to how it is now, its clear that they are actively working on bugs and optimization. Why would they still work, rather than just scrapping it and moving on. Why would the game contain "rookie programming mistakes" and "blatant oversights" if youve got one of the best ksp1 modders working on the game.

True theres things that dont work, or arent in the game yet, but there are a lot of things that work almost flawlessly. And especially the loading times should say something about it. Why would they make so many stockalike 3d assets for things that will never be in the game if scrapped.

I think the worst thing you can do for this games development is not refusing to buy it, but rather personally attacking the devs and management.

Also its obvious that the majority of players refunded the game instantly. A few ten thousand dollars is not enough to warrant it being a scam. Like. What are you gonna do with that money? Youre still in the red.

I think in a time like this we should be more focused on giving constructive criticism rather than being dicks about it. And we should be demanding transparency. All i really want right now is a clear insight into the development.

Anyways. I just had to say this becouse im mad that some people in this community are just actively trying to bring morale to 0.

 

Edited August 5 by para 9

[PDCWolf]

1 hour ago, Alpha_star said:

People like attatcching their emotions on something in real life instead of something abstract like a "game studio" or a "corperation", most of the time it's a person and in this case it's Nate Simpson. Some people hate KSP2 and since it's Nate who shows in front of us most of the time it would be natural that they redirect their negatives to Nate himself.

I mean, we're saying Nate, but even when Paul Furio showed his head on the sub he also got some nasty comments, back on the cancelled AMA, and even before that too when people recognized he was Paul Furio, all the way back to when he was fired a year ago. So really, anyone that came here and did that would get the tomatoes.

Also, behind those abstract concepts there's real people. Take Two is just a name, but people were also pretty eager to point at "MBAs", "bean counters", "management", and so on, which I honestly think is worse, since that's dehumanizing, but hey, it's seemingly a clear societal rule that it's okay to dehumanize and be mean to people that make more money it seems.

Edited August 5 by PDCWolf

[Gargamel]

On 8/3/2024 at 4:59 PM, caipi said:

I really dislike how Nate hasn't even been online in this forum since June 11th, much less said goodbye. It's not like I would have expected an apology for not being up to the task or for all the (very obvious) repurposed bovine waste he presented us over the past few years.  But the fact that he just silently took off, not looking back. Apparently not caring about this awesome community, not feeling at the least bit connected to it. I think it says a lot.

It’s well known that he had an account here before getting the ksp2 role.    I’m sure he’s been back under that name quite a few times, but seeing the hatred and vitriol the “community” has thrown his way, I don’t blame him for not sticking his head up.   

And he’s got more reason to be upset about this debacle than the rest of us combined.    What’s more important in life, losing $50 on a video game that kinda works, or having your career tarnished and possibly ruined? 

[para 9]

Except that this is Nate's M.O.: 

1) find an older game with a loyal following

2) pitch a spiritual successor or sequel to that game

3) start an Early Access

4) abandon the project after a few updates. 

His career isn't tarnished. That is his career. It is by design. 

Some people saw this coming years ago. Why do you think that is?

Edited August 5 by para 9

[Fizzlebop Smith]

There is a project we are working on

M-24-D722-b. We provide a contracted product and service. 

If my customer approached me with requests for specific information regarding the product. 

As a liason between the investment firm that owns (my) company & customer, I am responsible for communicating accurate information to the customer.

I can use circular answers, deflection & even outright lie in order to assuage customer concerns. If I am really good at my job at string this customer along through the engineering approvals and a few benchmarks dates.. incan submit some hefty invoices that my Boss will love me for.

I know based on the way things are processing that it is a complete and utter [@%@&] show.

Product defects, lack of direction among production staff, 4 extra weeks at engineering approval with a series of RFI / review exchanges, delays in material receipt, best practices are not being used language of my boss has changed in regard to the project.

I do what I am asked by my boss. My company loves me and the customer is quite surprised when use some legal loop holes in the contract language to force them to accept this behavior.

Oh did I mention that I am also in charge of the project as a whole. 

Now the angry customer is playing golf with all the other customers that  aren't angry yet... but have been treated similiarly.

Now the majority of my bug customers will no do business with the company I work for.  I am fired to appease the customers.

I know there are some differences in circumstance. I do not work in software development.

But I do accept responsibility for my actions and understand my own complicity in creating the situation I am in.

If I were a bit more narcissistic, I could blame by boss for asking me to behave in deceitful manner. I can blame the customer for not understanding or being patient enough.

Sometimes there are not easy choices. 

I was told once in my youth, " you are allowed a bad day, maybe a bad week. If you have a bad month or year, you need to be doing something different"

This was regarding managing workflow and deadlines.

[caipi]

20 hours ago, jost said:

You wouldn't care too about "the community" of your former employers product after signing a NDA.  It's silly to assume that somebody would risk a court battle just to "defend their honour" to a community whose most toxic members  wouldn't accept this defense anyhow. What would be the point in this?

I wasn't talking about "defending his honor" or something. As I said, this is not what I would have expected. I was more referring to something along the line of "that's it for me, unfortunately. I still hope that you guys get the game you deserve. you were great. thanks for your continuous support." Something a person with common decency would say. But looking at the date, it looks like he got his two weeks notice, shrugged his shoulder, and went on. (again, just saying that it *looks* this way.) And to me, this says a lot about his "investment" into the project.

Such a goodbye wouldn't have been broken any NDAs.

Edited August 5 by caipi

[Alpha_star]

1 hour ago, PDCWolf said:

I mean, we're saying Nate, but even when Paul Furio showed his head on the sub he also got some nasty comments, back on the cancelled AMA, and even before that too when people recognized he was Paul Furio, all the way back to when he was fired a year ago. So really, anyone that came here and did that would get the tomatoes.

Also, behind those abstract concepts there's real people. Take Two is just a name, but people were also pretty eager to point at "MBAs", "bean counters", "management", and so on, which I honestly think is worse, since that's dehumanizing, but hey, it's seemingly a clear societal rule that it's okay to dehumanize and be mean to people that make more money it seems.

Agreed. Even Dakota was being liquided at. She's just a CM and got hated simply because she represented KSP2 in some ways.

People were/are hating KSP2 in every way possible, as far as I've seen. Personal attacks are just the top of the iceburg. Communication and info about game development? Bad because the devs (in the real world there's a thing called community manager) are wasting their time talking to us and facts aside they are of course lying. Less communication? Even worse because facts aside everyone knows the game would die if no devs are telling us the news (albait that's proabably true now).

[para 9]

Yeah Dakota was the victim of downvote botting by a small cabal of vicious haters, who were hellbent on destroying the very franchise they proclaimed to love. Nobody deserves that. 

[Scarecrow71]

1 hour ago, Alpha_star said:

She's just a CM

He.

1 hour ago, para 9 said:

Yeah Dakota was the victim of downvote botting

Dakota accused the community of being bots and downvoting him and his threads on Reddit, which led to the community not taking too kindly to being called bots.  Get your facts straight here.

1 hour ago, para 9 said:

small cabal of vicious haters, who were hellbent on destroying the very franchise they proclaimed to love

Wrong again.  While I don't dispute that there were some people who were spewing vitriol at every turn, it was not because they were hellbent on destroying this franchise.  That anger was borne out of being told FOR YEARS that the game would be awesome, and everything that KSP1 wasn't, and that it would be the end-all of the space sim genre.  Heck, we were told in 2019 that the game was nearly finished and just needed some minor polishing.  What we got was nowhere near what was promised, we had 1 major content update in the year that development was active, and the very premise of Early Access - communication with the community - was non-existent.  People were angry, and rightfully so.  That does not mean that they were hell-bent on destroying the franchise.  Take Two did a bang-up job of wrecking everything Kerbal all on their own.

[para 9]

lol. Do you really think i'm that much of an unhinged, delusional simp? I was being sarcastic

[Lisias]

3 hours ago, caipi said:

Such a goodbye wouldn't have been broken any NDAs.

But would put a definitive end on the ordeal, declassifying the (obvious, but untold) information that he is not and will not be remotely involved on the Franchise again - what may be a violation of the NDA.

I had seen people getting royally screwed by NDA in unexpected ways just because someone on the other side of the tug-of-war interpreted something slightly more abroad than the receiving end - and since the receiving end is usually the one without a Juridical Department to back them up, the most reasonable move is to just shut up unless having explicit (and documented) authorization.

And since that dude with the guns (lawyers) have in their best interest to find someone to use as a escape goat to a huge managerial screw up (at best), it's really sensible to... Keep your mouth shut.

On a personal note (and this is not directly to you), sometimes I think people failed to grasp the proportions of this tremendous disaster. This is not about a AAA game that failed on the most basic principles of Software Development, the whole Industry is on check right now - we witnessed only the first cracks, the worst is still to come.

Really - anyone (being guilty, responsible or plain innocent) not covering their SASes right now is being suicidal.

[Scarecrow71]

5 hours ago, para 9 said:

lol. Do you really think i'm that much of an unhinged, delusional simp? I was being sarcastic

Well, let's see here.  You've got 11 total posts since joining way back on...July 21.  And all of your posts are basically throwing shade at the CM's, developers, corporation...and even at other users.  And considering I don't know you from Jeb Kerman, I'd say that it's a pretty good bet I have no idea who you are or why you are here, so I'm going to take your posts at face value.  If you don't want people to misinterpret your posts, I'd suggest to lay off the oozing sarcasm until people here get to know you.

[Vanamonde]

Play nice, please. 

[para 9]

I'll be super nice, and I'll try to remember that subtext can be difficult. It is sometimes even hard to tell when questions are rhetorical, and do not beg an explicit answer.

Also, I'll try to get back on topic and make a contribution of my own. 

I wish more mod ideas were baked into KSP2. I'm a big fan of FPV/IFV. Seeing the control room in KSP2 made me wish it was playable, like the Probe Control Room mod. 

Also wish there were plans for native Kerbal Construction Time, Scrap Yard, Oh Scrap!  These mods just add to the immersion and really adds to the feel of running a real operation.

[Lisias]

10 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Dakota accused the community of being bots and downvoting him and his threads on Reddit, which led to the community not taking too kindly to being called bots.  Get your facts straight here.

As a matter of fact... Until Reddit did that huge crackdown on bots one year ago (leading to that moderators strike, that ended up being squashed by force), everything I was posting there were (including on my local tongue reddits) were being downvoted mercilessly.

By some reason, these systematic downvoting magically stopped after the bot ban.

So there's a good chance that Dakota could be not totally wrong, besides not being completely right neither.

[Superfluous J]

3 minutes ago, Lisias said:

As a matter of fact... Until Reddit did that huge crackdown on bots one year ago (leading to that moderators strike, that ended up being squashed by force), everything I was posting there were (including on my local tongue reddits) were being downvoted mercilessly.

I'm not big on Reddit for many reasons, but I do not understand why moderators would "strike" over the removal of bots, especially because from what I can tell there was a problem that it fixed.

[para 9]

Thanks for the information about bots. I didn't know there was really a botting issue. I also, am not a fan of reddit and don't know the ins and outs. For some reason, I caught a permban on reddit. Imagine that  I tend to rub people the wrong way online. 

 

Back on topic, I should have added that a "Hardcore" option would be nice too. I know it isn't cannon (I guess Kerbals don't need life support according to lore). Still, would have loved a Kerbalism-like hardcore options menu. Kerbalism plays well with Oh Scrap! too. One offers fail states in the background, and the other during flight. 

 

However, if they were struggling with re-entry heating, and thought wobbly rockets were core gameplay -- well, I guess these features would have been asking too much. 

 

Oh yeah, also disappointed with the lack of krakens slain. 

[PDCWolf]

23 hours ago, Alpha_star said:

Agreed. Even Dakota was being liquided at. She's just a CM and got hated simply because she represented KSP2 in some ways.

People were/are hating KSP2 in every way possible, as far as I've seen. Personal attacks are just the top of the iceburg. Communication and info about game development? Bad because the devs (in the real world there's a thing called community manager) are wasting their time talking to us and facts aside they are of course lying. Less communication? Even worse because facts aside everyone knows the game would die if no devs are telling us the news (albait that's proabably true now).

You're removing a lot of merit from how bad communication actually was. For starters, we did caught them saying things that weren't true. Sitting where we are today, a full 2 months after the studio got fired, without a single news from the game... have you finally accepted that the accusations were true? If the haters were wrong and they really had the product they were trying to sell us, we'd have a game under continued development and would be about the colonies update around now. We don't, the haters, which weren't haters, were right. They were lying, they had no product, their people was getting fired, and whoever was left wasn't even qualified for the job.

20 hours ago, Lisias said:

Really - anyone (being guilty, responsible or plain innocent) not covering their SASes right now is being suicidal.

This year has been breaking layoff records since may. Not just in gaming. Hopefully it works as a bit of natural selection, though sadly in a lot of cases it's the wrong people getting fired.

11 hours ago, Lisias said:

So there's a good chance that Dakota could be not totally wrong, besides not being completely right neither.

As someone who downvoted Dakota's posts as soon as I saw they were more hot air and nothing really worthy (not his fault but eh), I can say he was really wrong in making that comment. Even if there were bots, you're still dehumanizing people saying bots are the only reason. And then there was the rest of his statement, which did nothing to help that feeling.

11 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

I'm not big on Reddit for many reasons, but I do not understand why moderators would "strike" over the removal of bots, especially because from what I can tell there was a problem that it fixed.

The strike is not directly related to the "bad" botting, but tangential: The thing reddit did was privatize and begin charging a ton for accessing their API. This not only bans bad bots, but also good bots (a lot of them made by subreddit moderators), and third party apps (which power users, mostly moderators, use en masse). That's why mods went on strike, because their tools were being made impossibly expensive.

 

[Superfluous J]

9 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

This not only bans bad bots, but also good bots (a lot of them made by subreddit moderators), and third party apps (which power users, mostly moderators, use en masse). That's why mods went on strike, because their tools were being made impossibly expensive.

That makes sense. It's also the first (and fairly early) step in the downfall of Twitter.

[etmoonshade]

On 8/5/2024 at 7:30 AM, PDCWolf said:

Also, behind those abstract concepts there's real people. Take Two is just a name, but people were also pretty eager to point at "MBAs", "bean counters", "management", and so on, which I honestly think is worse, since that's dehumanizing, but hey, it's seemingly a clear societal rule that it's okay to dehumanize and be mean to people that make more money it seems.

In all fairness, it's less about being mean to people that make more money in general, and more about being mean to the people (like CEOs, MBAs, beancounters, management, etc.) that by and large view people as a means to extract money with little regard for their well-being.

It's not a universal thing - I work for a great company and in my experience lower management is less likely to be sociopathic (e.g. the company is more important than the employee,) but I'd say that it's fair to dehumanize people who treat other people as numbers on a spreadsheet. Take Two's overall behavior seems to fit the bill.

 

More on-topic - I'm partly vindicated and partly sad that KSP2 cratered.

I'm vindicated because $50 for early access is disgusting - and felt like a cash grab trying to capitalize on an IP with a loyal fanbase. I did not buy, and watched with amusement while some folks played on stream and continually ran into bugs. If they wanted to raise some money, do a kickstarter with cool feelies and stuff like getting your name in the game.

I'm sad because I really would've liked to have seen KSP2 turn into something better than KSP1... but I also wasn't holding my breath. If nothing else, I'm a cynic - it means that I'm never disappointed, only pleasantly surprised.