Negative things about the game, development, and the silence

[purpleivan]

On 7/3/2024 at 3:14 AM, Superfluous J said:

I hated:

• That font.

Myy first negative reaction to KSP 2 on playing it, was to the poorly designed, stylistically inconsistent GUI... including the fonts.

KSP1's visual GUI design works. It clearly presents game information to the player, in a way that is internally consistent and in a style fitting the other visuals in the game. That's what good GUI design does.

I've done my fair share of GUI work over the years (it's not really my thing, I've just ended up doing it from time to time) and I've worked as art lead on teams that had some really talented GUI artists. It's a shame that one of them weren't working on this project.

As with so many things with KSP2, there was a solid, well developed design (not just GUI, but in general) to build on, but with too many things IG seems to have suffered from "not made here" syndrome and made decisions to change things that didn't need changing; just a lick of paint, and minor improvements where prudent.

[Mr. Kerbin]

When KSP2 was nearing release, I was excited. Really excited, like all of us were. I couldn't wait to download it... on my Mac. I soon realized that adding KSP2 to Mac was a feature planned "after 1.0.0".  It wasn't even on the roadmap. And another thing- KSP2 seemed to finally be getting revived, gaining replay value and was generally a better game. Then those dummies at Take Two canceled it. 

[Fizzlebop Smith]

"And another thing- KSP2 seemed to finally be getting revived, gaining replay value and was generally a better game. Then those dummies at Take Two canceled it. "

I agree that the game had  a few positive improvements during its final days, (current build is MILES better than launch) but i keep hearing contradictory analyses on the final potential of the game. 

I mean.. Yea i wish they would have continued to make KS2 .. if it would be capable of building a 2500+ part ship in orbit and actually flying it another system. Those conversations i remember tracking from way back in the day leaned into orbital construction and only near future tech, this suggested colonies, orbital installations and generational ships would be thing but i cannot envision the game supporting a massive infrastructure. 

I long for the day when there are some real dissection of the game, whether that day ever comes is something else all together, but i just would like to KNOW if it COULD have happened.. given the time and a proper injection of experience. I know absolutely nothing about the nuances between Webdevx code or whatever Foonix was talking about. For those of us uninitiated in the software industry, i think that is the most frustrating part. 

At this point we are all pretty sure it was a cash grab everyone from bleeding green than was deemed necessary. and not talking kerbals here. 
I know that KSP2 could have been amazing if everything would(nt) have worked against it from the very beginning... you know , like if everything were done differently. but i would like to eventually learn the definitive ruling from on high about KSP2 and whether it ever had legs.

Edited September 25 by Fizzlebop Smith

[PDCWolf]

On 9/23/2024 at 10:21 PM, Fizzlebop Smith said:

-snip-

They always were quick to tell us whatever positive the new game had. They talked about HDRP and the PQS rework (though that never ever showed up), they talked about multiplayer which also wasn't a thing (and had been soft cancelled in 2022). They talked about a lot of huge things that were for sure coming. In fact their whole 4 years of delays just added more hype through promised stuff (yes, I know they never used that word, get lost). Yet they -never- gave a proper tech talk about part number targets, active flights per save targets, or specifics about how many parts their shown creations had. Every technical detail was either drawings and dreams (like the heating blog), or hazy non-details. The game had no technical base, and even the most staunch defenders of "this codebase had more potential" have long lost that fight and have been talking about what can be done with KSP1 vs 2. For what you wanted to to have happened, the game would've needed massive reworks in a lot of things. Performance wasn't bad because "muh optimization", performance was bad because the codebase is amateurly done, and you can't really build on top of that, which is why a year later the only thing the game has is a tech tree and a points system.

Now, I'm not saying it was a cash-grab, just a very amateur project where they ended up being completely unable to build anything on top of their base and whatever idea they had had to be cut down harshly to fit:

• Heating? had to be simplified.
• Career? Had to be reduced to a single currency, they couldn't even balance it properly.
• Ship construction? Had to be hacked together with all-in-1 parts to not make it so obvious the game was bursting at the seams.
• Thrust during warp? They couldn't solve the problem, so they just made everything be simulated at all times, and completely exploded performance and the saving system.
• Interstellar? Never arrived, but hinted at being literally the same hack as KSP1 mods were, with solar systems orbiting a magic point.
• Orbital construction? Never shown in motion, they showed parts... again all of them were all-in-1s
• Colonies? Never shown past unity editor videos and a "colony ship" made of all-in-1s.
• Logistics? Excel simulator without physical vessels.
• Multiplayer? They didn't even tell us work on it was stopped. They never showed anything past that one screenshot which now we know was probably hacked together.

There was no game, and even when they were dreaming up features, they came up with the most basic, puddle depth stuff.

[Dakota]

On 8/6/2024 at 7:31 AM, PDCWolf said:

I can say he was really wrong in making that comment

Probably my biggest mistake from last year workwise. Had to work to slowly build back the trust lost, but I know I never quite got there for some folks. You live and learn.

[para 9]

It is a indeed a shame that more scam victims didn't trust the CM right up until the project imploded, without warning, destroying the franchise along with it.  

Edited October 1 by para 9

[AstroEvada]

I think the people who should rightfully have any vitriol flung their way are the higher ups at Take-Two. They've wronged their employees, wronged the community and now they just get off what amounts to scot-free after scamming a lot of people for a product which had little chance of succeeding; you could tell right away that they were completely out of touch with the KSP community by how they think KSP would be a successor to Minecraft and that Kerbals were gonna be Minions 20, not to mention the absurdidity of being so tight-lipped about literally anything which only served to fuel the anger within the community. I can wager a billion dollars that T2 management think that it's not their fault, it's the consumers and employees fault.

[Scarecrow71]

I'll start by saying that I completely understand the concept and implementation of NDA's.  And that I also understand that a lot of the developers, CM's, and even Nate himself, have avoided coming to the site for multiple reasons, not the least of which could very well be said NDA's (not to mention the vitriol and hatred that would be thrown their way).  And I'll further expand on this by saying that, while the forums are a great resource for this franchise, it's not the end-all of social media and engagement for the franchise.

That all said, I think it's a pretty damning statement that nobody from the team comes here any longer.  Dakota recently posted in this thread for the first time since the layoffs, and neither Mike nor Nate have been on the site since before the layoffs.  Nertea is active in the modding section.  But still no word from anyone on what happened, or why.  One of the CM's and the Creative Director for KSP2 aren't even here any longer.  I think that says more than enough about how they felt about the franchise and the community.  It's insulting, really.

[RileyHef]

On 10/3/2024 at 9:15 AM, Scarecrow71 said:

I think it's a pretty damning statement that nobody from the team comes here any longer. 

1. It's not like the devs were all roaming the site freely commenting on user generated content during development either. The vast majority of communication we got here from IG were  from their official communications such as updates, dev diaries, AMA's, etc. Most devs didn't come to the forum and contribute organically besides the CM's so we shouldn't expect engagement to continue pace or even improve after development stopped.

2. These staff members were unexpectedly laid off less than 6 months ago. A good chunk still have no job, it seems. They likely are desperate to move on and find work. Hanging out here in such little time since a painful job transition is likely not constructive for most.

3. In my personal experience I have never had a desire to contribute to or follow the social channels of my former employers. A job is a job, even if you are passionate about it. It is healthy to have some degree of separation.

On 10/3/2024 at 9:15 AM, Scarecrow71 said:

Dakota recently posted in this thread for the first time since the layoffs

Dakota has been pretty active in the forums in the last week liking several posts and commenting in a few different threads. They also have been popping in and out of the official Discord with brief messages since the layoffs. Just providing further context here.

On 10/3/2024 at 9:15 AM, Scarecrow71 said:

But still no word from anyone on what happened, or why.  One of the CM's and the Creative Director for KSP2 aren't even here any longer.  I think that says more than enough about how they felt about the franchise and the community.  It's insulting, really.

You feel insulted because the devs are not speaking about "what happened, or why"? I think you answered it yourself when you said:

On 10/3/2024 at 9:15 AM, Scarecrow71 said:

a lot of the developers, CM's, and even Nate himself, have avoided coming to the site for multiple reasons, not the least of which could very well be said NDA's (not to mention the vitriol and hatred that would be thrown their way).

My point, in short, is that these former employees individually owe us nothing. They were recently laid off by one of the biggest corporations in their industry and are under NDA. To expect them to come to our niche forum and explain things beyond what we already know seems beyond unrealistic to me for so many reasons. Come on. We saw what happened when one of them even attempted to start an AMA and got shut down before saying anything of substance. Do you think other staff see situations like that and feel encouraged to talk (or even visit) this forum?

Don't get me wrong, I blame this dev team as much as I blame the rest of T2 for the demise of KSP2. I am not trying to protect them in any way, but I also won't stand for our community placing unreasonable expectations on how they conduct their personal lives and then becoming upset when those made up expectations aren't met.

Edited October 4 by RileyHef

[Scarecrow71]

48 minutes ago, RileyHef said:

My point, in short, is that these former employees individually owe us nothing. They were recently laid off by one of the biggest corporations in their industry and are under NDA. To expect them to come to our niche forum and explain things beyond what we already know seems beyond unrealistic to me for so many reasons. Come on. We saw what happened when one of them even attempted to start an AMA and got shut down before saying anything of substance. Do you think other staff see situations like that and feel encouraged to talk (or even visit) this forum?

For a group of people who are all on record prior to this as saying they were here for good, and they loved the game, and they loved interacting with the fanbase?  Yeah, a lack of coming here isn't really all that cool.  And I expressed that I understood NDA's; I think you might have missed that in my post.  I get that they can't say very specific things.  But for them to completely disappear after professing how much they loved the franchise?  Looks kind of bad.

[NexusHelium]

5 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

But for them to completely disappear after professing how much they loved the franchise?  Looks kind of bad.

Not gonna lie but it’s probably the pressure of people constantly asking them to leak the source code and stupid stuff like that. I wouldn’t want to spend time with a community that pressures me or my team to break their NDA. Not to mention a large majority of the community just got mean after the layoffs, and I also wouldn’t want to be around a bunch of people that just flat-out insults my projects and/or myself and others.

Edited October 4 by NexusHelium

[Lisias]

9 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

But for them to completely disappear after professing how much they loved the franchise?  Looks kind of bad.

Developers are (surprisingly, I admit ) humans beings, after all. Lefting apart who did what, unless the dude/gal is a psychopath they have feelings and need to pass trough all the 5 steps of grief as anyone else.

And, by then, they will have new lives, new jobs, new problems to cope with, and all of that takes time, a lot of time - restarting your life from scratch is a huge and painful task, it's not a surprise that most people avoid switching jobs unless there's absolutely no other option (even when the job sucks by a reason or another).

And on the list of priorities, old allegiances always ends up taking the back seat.

Heck, I'm still active around here, but due Real Life™ and Day Job© issues I'm barely being able to interact with people in the last 6 weeks. I just didn't had the time to engage in a meaningful way most of the time. And I didn't lost my job (yet... ), what to say about them?

Spoiler

A really good friend of mine died about 10 years ago. A friendship from my teenager times - I'm Generation X.

Once a year, and only once a year, I kinda celebrate the friendship on his death's anniversary. Sometimes I fire up a retro-computer we both used to like, sometimes I play a videogame that we used to like, sometime I just watch on Youtube the amiga demos he show me when the Amiga was still a thing.

The other 364 days of the year, I'm living my life the best I can.

It's just how People works.

 

[PDCWolf]

On 10/5/2024 at 12:04 AM, Lisias said:

And, by then, they will have new lives, new jobs, new problems to cope with

By god I do hope they learned a good couple lessons from this mess.

1. Passion alone (if that was even a thing with this dev team, save for known cases) is not enough, you need to... as we say in our language: "plenty of butt on chair".
2. You won't create something that's above mediocre by being mediocre yourself.
3. Another important lesson is that life has no participation awards, if you don't make something memorable, no one is gonna 'member. It doesn't matter how much the industry currently wants participation awards for regurgitating slop after slop, it won't happen, as long as products cost money at least.

That's how KSP1 has managed to outlive its order-of-magnitude-more-anticipated sequel. It started as a one-task high score based game where you had to build a big rocket and go up, Kerbin was a flat plane not even infinite, but they allowed themselves to dream big and grow big, and worked big as well (even as  much as I disliked and criticized a lot of things during development, they went and got it done).

 

[Superfluous J]

On 10/4/2024 at 1:29 PM, Scarecrow71 said:

For a group of people who are all on record prior to this as saying they were here for good, and they loved the game, and they loved interacting with the fanbase?  Yeah, a lack of coming here isn't really all that cool.  And I expressed that I understood NDA's; I think you might have missed that in my post.  I get that they can't say very specific things.  But for them to completely disappear after professing how much they loved the franchise?

It's far easier to love a video game you're working on when you're getting a paycheck.

Edited October 7 by Superfluous J

[cocoscacao]

Sigh... 

[Lisias]

 

On 10/6/2024 at 5:18 PM, PDCWolf said:

(even as  much as I disliked and criticized a lot of things during development, they went and got it done).

On a side note, sometimes I flirt with the conclusion that they managed to get that huge success they got exactly by doing (almost) everything "wrong" during development.

Some of the worst and most lingering problems on KSP happened on the very first release after the original team left the company, and where replaced by professionals that made things "right".

Fun fact:

Spoiler

Quote

Rumor: Many speculated that KSP would no longer be developed in the 1.x direction, but in the 2.0 direction.

Source. Date: 2016-1006, a few days before the 1.2.0 release.

 

Edited October 8 by Lisias
Hit "Save" too soon

[RandomKid]

There is no roadmap anymore, no updates coming. No dev team - Intercept is gone, and there are rumors that PD is going with it. There will be no colonies, no other star systems, nothing. Early Access has become Only Access, and this is the game you're stuck with.

All you can do now... is complain to Steam.

[Gargamel]

Overlapping threads have been merged