A week in... 10% still playing

[Rosten]

19 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

The history of HelloGames is completely unique, how many more games have been able to rise from the ashes?

There have been a few.  FFXIV almost literally rose from the ashes created by the impact blowing up the original game which was a disaster.  Project Zomboid eventually recovered from the dev going berserk and attacking the community after losing the source of the game, giving talks about that mistake along the way.   There are some other arguable ones and probably many others that I'm forgetting.  But in general, realizing how bad things really are and deciding to refuse to accept failure is what got the games through it.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

There are a couple of gems that I pulled out of the Markum AMA. 

The significant one that many might have missed is this:

Quote

Most difficult: establishing the roadmap. We started from an endpoint "here's the game as a whole", but when you go into early access, it's not 50% of each feature, it's milestone on milestone - each building on top of each other. It took us months to sort out. There's still moments where we think about moving things around, but yeah trying to take this absolute behemoth of a game and parse it out into a bunch of different phases.

... 

Remember that question about the roadmap? This is one of the outcomes when everything is building on top of each other.. We wanted to make sure exploration is about exploration. 

 ... 

To me, this reads like (one possible, fair interpretation is) they had to break the game to present it as Sandbox only for EA.   (uh, thanks T2?) 

. 

I read things from software devs who point out that features like MP have to be baked in from the start... And if that's true - and Intercept were building a cohesive game then told to dump Sandbox on Feb 24?  Maybe breaking parts out of a game is as fubar as trying to slap something on later?  IDK. 

 

 

Some other gems;

... 

"For science mode, it's the first time we get to turn the "toy" into a "game" and go through the tech tree, and finish missions, and develop a gameplay loop. We want to build missions to be able to highlight the cool things about the Kerbolar system."

... 

'... you will gather raw resources and then refine them into what you need. Chris Adderly had a lot of fun building a production chain graph which I hope we one day get to release since it's really helpful how to understand how it all flows together' 

... 

"I think we're looking at 14-15 specific resources throughout the universe. Focused on what you need for propulsion. Same resource may be present in multiple locations, but prevalence/proximity to your existing infrastructure are factors we're thinking about as well"

[Alexoff]

57 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Their shares went up, sure, but not because of KSP2, and they know that so well they fired some members of the team after release.

The point is that our resentment is not a big problem for T2 as long as we resent on the forums. Perhaps if some media wrote a devastating article about how T2 brazenly deceived gullible fans, then the shares would not rise in this way and T2 management would do something useful.

9 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

To me, this reads like (one possible, fair interpretation is) they had to break the game to present it as Sandbox only for EA.   (uh, thanks T2?)

Did this game even exist? It seems to me that each group of developers had their own mini-build, in which only part of them functioned. For example, someone did scattering, but for some reason they still couldn’t insert it into the game. Of course, it is amazing to read about the many months of development of the roadmap, perhaps the development of indicative dates is still ongoing.

[Buzz313th]

1 hour ago, Alexoff said:

Apparently the developers and T2 see no reason to apologize to the likes of us. A major publisher these days only cares about share price and shareholder opinion. Since February 24, T2 shares have grown by 13%, so everything is fine. Nate happily left for the holidays. It does not seem that our resentment excites anyone other than ourselves.

Or, the development team has been pressured by T2 to perform with less and less resources.  They keep their heads up and try to stay positive both for personal and political reasons, simply trying to keep their job and maintain development.  Maybe Nate needed a vacation after a bit of job stress?   Comparing the passion that most people have (players and developers) for the KSP franchise against the typical ideology of corporate America, it's more likely in this situation that the dev's have good intentions, but are currently hamstrung by the "Bean Counters".   Best case scenario...  The development continues to be funded by T2, they give the Dev's the time and resources needed to do this correctly and the community backs off with the pressure on the Dev's.  Next best case scenario...   T2 halts funding and sells the franchise to an "Interested Party" that has the resources to pick up where T2 left off.  The worst case scenario is  that T2 halts funding, they release the game as Ver 1.0 with very little effort to make it better and hold on to the franchise.  This last scenario I believe is very unlikely to happen, since the Title franchise has a bit of potential equity considering the KSP1 modders keep the franchise alive.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Buzz313th

[The Aziz]

It's not up to any of us here to decide whether he deserved the break he got, but I bet any of you would like one after working your ass off for 5 years, going undoubtedly through a prerelease crunch and listening daily to an angry mob that apparently has nothing else to do in life.

[Rosten]

24 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

There are a couple of gems that I pulled out of the Markum AMA. 

That roadmap answer was pretty wild since the project should have had an established roadmap before 2019, at the very least the dependencies between tasks shouldn't be something they're having to figure out 4+ years after they were needed to begin development.  There are so many questions about what was actually going on in 2019.

[PDCWolf]

18 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

any of you would like one after working your ass off.

Part of the problem is the work ain't showing. Small updates that "fix" a lot of invisible stuff whilst breaking a lot of clearly visible stuff (even though there's a QA period) on a game that came out as uncooked as sushi.

I did not see, however, a reason for an impersonal attack, specially since I also didn't see anyone (yes, I checked) saying the break was undeserved, only that it doesn't look good when you take into account the current happenings. Life is not a moral pedestal competition.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

25 minutes ago, Rosten said:

That roadmap answer was pretty wild since the project should have had an established roadmap before 2019, at the very least the dependencies between tasks shouldn't be something they're having to figure out 4+ years after they were needed to begin development.  There are so many questions about what was actually going on in 2019.

The Roadmap appeared after (and as part of) the announcement that they were going the EA route. 

Perspective is that prior to this, the team was developing a single game experience that would release as a whole project.  Breaking it up into a staged EA release with a bunch of distinct feature drops isn't likely what anyone planned. 

Mind you, I'm searching for ways to be kind and hopeful about the future. 

[Observe]

To me, one of the main question is do the programmers have a solid grip on how to code the game to a satisfactory release? Or, are they buried in over their heads with dead-end attempts to make things work in ways that just won't? I definitely sympathize with the developers, who are no doubt stressed by upper management marketing decisions in addition to programming challenges. Marketing people can lie, but a programmer cannot lie their way into operational code. The best they can do, is try to hang on to their jobs so they can feed their families while the ship tumbles out of control and they update their resumes.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Observe

[Alexoff]

2 hours ago, Buzz313th said:

Maybe Nate needed a vacation after a bit of job stress?

Perhaps yes, but why is he telling us about it? For example, Nate probably sleeps at night and drinks coffee in the morning. Why would he tell us about it on the gaming forum? So that we know that he is doing well, and the problems of the game do not bother him? Now is not the situation to carry out self-representation.

2 hours ago, Buzz313th said:

They keep their heads up and try to stay positive both for personal and political reasons, simply trying to keep their job and maintain development.

It seems that in the opinion of many, an employee can only do work with a positive smile when pink ponies and a rainbow fly around. It seems to me that great things are done with clenched teeth and narrowed eyes.

[cocoscacao]

17 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

It seems that in the opinion of many, an employee can only do work with a positive smile when pink ponies and a rainbow fly around

No. But there are rules on how you should communicate with the public. And for good reasons.

[Alexoff]

36 minutes ago, cocoscacao said:

No. But there are rules on how you should communicate with the public. And for good reasons.

As part of the public, I apparently do not understand this ingenious rule

[cocoscacao]

@Alexoff Once you start dealing with clients... Never publicly display what internal problems are. If you watched ShadowZone's interview with Nate, you can see that he wasn't happy with the state of the game (or rather, release date). A few more months were required for a proper EA release. But here we are, and you cannot just drop everything and walk away. Keeping optimism is good for both parties. We also have no idea how many features are hidden from us, so what we see, isn't everything that was developed for all this time.

This is gonna take long, but I'm happy to have something to toy with, rather than just get 10 seconds of a gameplay footage every month.

I got sidetracked with the answer...

[PDCWolf]

6 hours ago, Alexoff said:

The point is that our resentment is not a big problem for T2 as long as we resent on the forums. Perhaps if some media wrote a devastating article about how T2 brazenly deceived gullible fans, then the shares would not rise in this way and T2 management would do something useful.

Did this game even exist? It seems to me that each group of developers had their own mini-build, in which only part of them functioned. For example, someone did scattering, but for some reason they still couldn’t insert it into the game. Of course, it is amazing to read about the many months of development of the roadmap, perhaps the development of indicative dates is still ongoing.

Excuse me, I originally didn't see your quote when scrolling.

The articles since launch have been very descriptive of the game's shortfalls and issues:

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/kerbal-space-program-2-early-access-review

https://www.pcgamer.com/too-early-access-for-early-accessplayers-react-to-kerbal-space-program-2-launch/

https://www.videogameschronicle.com/news/fewer-people-are-playing-kerbal-space-program-2-than-the-original-game/

https://www.polygon.com/23637866/kerbal-space-program-2-patch-release-date-bug-fix

The thing is, not that many people care about the game to make a dent in a huge company as T2 is.

[Alexoff]

1 hour ago, cocoscacao said:

Never publicly display what internal problems are.

It seems to me that ignoring the serious problems of the product and hiding the internal troubles of the developer are not the same thing.

1 hour ago, cocoscacao said:

Keeping optimism is good for both parties.

Watching the optimism of the developers does not make me optimistic. Probably because I have a memory and some experience of communicating with people.

2 hours ago, cocoscacao said:

We also have no idea how many features are hidden from us

For some reason, even unhidden features have disappeared from the game over the past six months.

 

I do not understand where such faith in developers comes from. Have they developed some incredible games before? Or have they always been honest with us?

[RocketRockington]

On 4/22/2023 at 12:06 PM, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

To me, this reads like (one possible, fair interpretation is) they had to break the game to present it as Sandbox only for EA.   (uh, thanks T2?) 

To me it just sounds like an inexperienced developer.  You build your milestone plan in a series of layers that build up on one another, to make development as efficient as possible.   That's development 101.   "Behemoth of a game".  It's an AA sized project.  That at least so far they mostly are mimicing the previous project, except for the graphics facelift. 

 My impression continues to be that their project management is abysmal and they keep talking up massive challenges as cover for how amateurishly they handled things.

Edited April 24, 2023 by RocketRockington

[Buzz313th]

16 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

I do not understand where such faith in developers comes from. Have they developed some incredible games before? Or have they always been honest with us?

The faith comes from those in the community who really want this title to materialize in to what the original concept was.  

[RocketRockington]

6 hours ago, The Aziz said:

It's not up to any of us here to decide whether he deserved the break he got, but I bet any of you would like one after working your ass off for 5 years, going undoubtedly through a prerelease crunch and listening daily to an angry mob that apparently has nothing else to do in life.

Anyone should get the vacation time they need & earned.  That said, very few game companies advertise when employees go on vacation( I can't think of an example but I'm sure there are some) Especially as he was only gone a week and is back to posting.  

 I'm confused by their ongoing stupidity when it comes to communication.  I think they're living in in a different world we're the game is good and their fanbase thinks well of them?

Edited April 22, 2023 by RocketRockington

[cocoscacao]

1 hour ago, Alexoff said:

It seems to me that ignoring the serious problems of the product

But they are not ignoring them. Wobbly rockets are clearly one of the priorities (my biggest gripe for now). Patch 2 introduced some major performance boost, allowing lower spec players to get a taste of action. Complaints about maneuver nodes were partially addressed. Progress is being made slowly, but steadily. That gives me confidence. I cannot realistically expected them to fix everything at once.

[LoSBoL]

8 hours ago, cocoscacao said:

But they are not ignoring them. Wobbly rockets are clearly one of the priorities (my biggest gripe for now). Patch 2 introduced some major performance boost, allowing lower spec players to get a taste of action. Complaints about maneuver nodes were partially addressed. Progress is being made slowly, but steadily. That gives me confidence. I cannot realistically expected them to fix everything at once.

And quite franky, that's the only way they can prove they are taking ownership. There are no words that can be spoken to fix the game, only actions will get the game where it needs to go and regain trust. They are keeping calm and continuing. 

[Alexoff]

10 hours ago, cocoscacao said:

But they are not ignoring them.

But judging by the words of the developers, the problems are not so big.

10 hours ago, cocoscacao said:

Wobbly rockets are clearly one of the priorities

In fact, rocket jerking can be fixed with just a couple of zeros in a text configuration file. Didn't Nate say it was on purpose?

10 hours ago, cocoscacao said:

Patch 2 introduced some major performance boost, allowing lower spec players to get a taste of action.

Well, how's the taste?

10 hours ago, cocoscacao said:

That gives me confidence.

If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention (c)

 

Well, with such fans, they can fix the game for another 10 years. As I wrote above, they have not found the bottom yet, there is still room to fall.

[Superfluous J]

19 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

the work ain't showing

That literally does not matter.

He's a human being and human beings should be able to take breaks.

For f.... you know what I can't write the rest of this post without violating - like - the entire rules post of this forum.

[jost]

On 4/22/2023 at 2:50 PM, Lyneira said:

I think it's fair to spare a thought for it when the question being answered is:

Is the team at IG/PD happy with the current state of the game? (Sunny54Games, Discord)

Edit: As I later found out re-reading the answer, she did spare a thought, so I'm happy with that.

This is a stupid question in any case.  Do someone really expect that a team member will say anything bad about their companys products? Most companys don't like workers who tell the customers "Our product is crap at the moment" and would fire them. 
I really don't understand why people ask such silly questions: First (see above) the answer will always be that everythings gonna be allright. But even if the answer would be a more honest one: What's actually the benefit of getting such an answer? The state of the game is not improved in both cases. 

[PDCWolf]

2 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

That literally does not matter.

He's a human being and human beings should be able to take breaks.

For f.... you know what I can't write the rest of this post without violating - like - the entire rules post of this forum.

Again, nobody said it's not deserved, or he shouldn't take it. Getting a smiley face for the forums after people got fired and there's less than 500 people playing your game, half of them mad... yeah no, there was no need to go there.

[cocoscacao]

5 hours ago, Alexoff said:

In fact, rocket jerking can be fixed with just a couple of zeros in a text configuration file. Didn't Nate say it was on purpose?

Err... you're gonna have to point me to that quote. I remember that he said some wobbling should be present, and I agree with that. But he also mentioned that current level of wobbling is unacceptable.

5 hours ago, Alexoff said:

Well, how's the taste?

I can only see that through posts of other players who seem satisfied with optimisations done so far. I have a beefy PC, and I was playing this game maxed out from day one.

5 hours ago, Alexoff said:

If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention (c)

I forgot where that quote is from. GoT? Also, read my previous post about slow and steady updates. Thus, I disagree...

5 hours ago, Alexoff said:

Well, with such fans, they can fix the game for another 10 years

If we get monthly patches that are effective as the last two, then no. It will take significantly less. Patience.