A Taste of Science

[PDCWolf]

15 hours ago, kdaviper said:

I think my point, and possibly the point others are trying to make is that there is little reason to expect them to add a non-vital feature until other more intertwined features are fleshed out.

I would have been disappointed if painting your parts was not included so I understand that you are disappointed that IVA is not in the game. 

3 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

IVA's existence only justifies itself. It does not reach into any gameplay loops and that remains true whether anyone has said authority or not.

And my point is nobody knows what makes a vital feature for the vision PD may have. Thus everyone has been saying they're cosmetic or not vital without any proof. I care little for opinions when we're discussing prospective game features.

[K33N]

Why are the challenges even asking for rovers when its not possible to do in the game's current state? You'll either fall through the ground or have random, violent changes in direction that destroy you even on flat terrain.

Is there any ETA on playablity updates? Science mode is no good when the core mechanics are still hopelessly broken...

[Bej Kerman]

19 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

And my point is nobody knows what makes a vital feature for the vision PD may have. Thus everyone has been saying they're cosmetic or not vital without any proof. I care little for opinions when we're discussing prospective game features.

Everything you can do in KSP you'll be able to do without IVA. That's textbook cosmetic.

[DunaManiac]

Just my two cents on the "vital features vs extraneous ones."

A lot of KSP's improvements over KSP1 are on "nonvital cosmetic features" like clouds, painting of parts, etc. The majority of the other features are either in poor shape or haven't been added yet.

On 5/17/2023 at 3:08 PM, Bej Kerman said:

It has literally 0 impact on the game besides existing, unlike vital features.

Depending on how narrowly you define "vital features," all the vital features are a capsule, a fuel tank, and an engine. You can pretty much accomplish everything you can in KSP if you use a lot of them. Let's list some other things that have 0 impact on the game besides existing:

High quality models

High quality ground scatter

Textures

Clouds

However, I do understand that priorities exist, and that we should focus on the core features before adding "useless" features. I would argue that KSP2 already has some useless features that should be axed, like rendering kerbals inside capsules. But what I feel like some people are trying to say is that features that were in KSP1 (i.e IVA, Reentry heating, burn time indicators while burning (even though this was added later)) were pointless to begin with and that they should not be in KSP2. It's an attitude meant to excuse KSP2's faults without actually fixing them.

[Alexoff]

Science is also not a vital element. In fact, it introduces restrictions on the use of parts, forcing you to go from the smallest and weakest to the most powerful and effective parts. You can simply create such restrictions in your imagination, for example, until you reach Dune, do not use parts larger than 1.5 m, nuclear engines only after Moho's visit, and so on.

[Wheehaw Kerman]

4 hours ago, Alexoff said:

Every pandemic ends after a few years. Especially if it is overshadowed by more formidable events. But this is generally offtopic. I suggested looking at the specific facts of the development of KSP2.

I thought you would operate with some facts, but it turned out it was just a prediction of Nostradamus

So you really need to be careful to distinguish between facts and supposition, assumption, and groupthink.  Internet fora are deadly for fostering the latter three, and  accepting them as fact can lead to wrong conclusions.  In this particular case, the wrong conclusion will just lead to me being annoying and sad until things get better, at which point I’ll feel silly.  Not as bad as, say, the consequences of running off and joining ISIS, putting my retirement savings into crypto, or rejecting beneficial health care because the 5G microchips will let our Reptiloid overlords mind control me, but still something that I’d rather avoid.  And frankly, there’s no real point in it.  All the negativity in the world won’t save the game if the… let’s call them “anti-hypers” are right.

Generally, the more angry, wild-eyed, breathless and aggressive the proponents, the less credible the alleged facts.  This isn’t to say that you personally are coming across as a raving ISIS antivaxer who’s upset that his crypto is tanking again, just that the anti-hypers are leaning real hard into that vibe and aren’t coming across as credible.

Until somebody with the same level of credibility starts dropping believable doom bombs, or things go objectively and incontrovertibly pear-shaped, I’m going to continue assuming that the game will eventually be released in a form that reasonably approximates IG’s plans.  It’s the most likely hypothesis and is better aligned with observable reality.

[kdaviper]

3 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

And my point is nobody knows what makes a vital feature for the vision PD may have. Thus everyone has been saying they're cosmetic or not vital without any proof. I care little for opinions when we're discussing prospective game features.

You care little of OTHERS' opinions it seems, but seem to be quite keen on sharing your own.

The only reference anybody has at this point is the roadmap... and it does not include IVA as a core gameplay feature.

 

[Alexoff]

2 hours ago, Wheehaw Kerman said:

So you really need to be careful to distinguish between facts and supposition, assumption, and groupthink.  Internet fora are deadly for fostering the latter three, and  accepting them as fact can lead to wrong conclusions.  In this particular case, the wrong conclusion will just lead to me being annoying and sad until things get better, at which point I’ll feel silly.  Not as bad as, say, the consequences of running off and joining ISIS, putting my retirement savings into crypto, or rejecting beneficial health care because the 5G microchips will let our Reptiloid overlords mind control me, but still something that I’d rather avoid.  And frankly, there’s no real point in it.  All the negativity in the world won’t save the game if the… let’s call them “anti-hypers” are right.

Generally, the more angry, wild-eyed, breathless and aggressive the proponents, the less credible the alleged facts.  This isn’t to say that you personally are coming across as a raving ISIS antivaxer who’s upset that his crypto is tanking again, just that the anti-hypers are leaning real hard into that vibe and aren’t coming across as credible.

Until somebody with the same level of credibility starts dropping believable doom bombs, or things go objectively and incontrovertibly pear-shaped, I’m going to continue assuming that the game will eventually be released in a form that reasonably approximates IG’s plans.  It’s the most likely hypothesis and is better aligned with observable reality

This is some kind of empty demagogy, this will not impress me.  [snip]

I will add - I heard about anything - about vaccinations, ISIS, 5G, cryptocurrencies, reptilians, microchipping and anything except KSP2. It's unbelievable that this works on the internet!

Edited May 18, 2023 by Alexoff
Redacted by moderator

[Bej Kerman]

3 hours ago, DunaManiac said:

On 5/17/2023 at 8:08 PM, Bej Kerman said:

It has literally 0 impact on the game besides existing, unlike vital features.

Depending on how narrowly you define "vital features," all the vital features are a capsule, a fuel tank

How about we stop there? IVA has never made a vessel operate any differently, additional engines have.

[PDCWolf]

1 hour ago, kdaviper said:

You care little of OTHERS' opinions it seems, but seem to be quite keen on sharing your own.

The only reference anybody has at this point is the roadmap... and it does not include IVA as a core gameplay feature.

My man, most of the things that have changed from KSP1 to KSP2 that are currently in the game can be classified as cosmetic or non-vital and aren't on the roadmap. The definitions for those words are so vague and so personal nobody has been able to defend such stupid argument without resorting to pretty much ignoring anything but what they care about, which you have a pretty good example of right here above.

If we do non-vitals at an arbitrary point in the future, why do we have clouds? why do we have vessel painting? those are literal cosmetics that you can leave for the literal tail end of development. This is why I care little for those opinions, because those opinions are only being thrown around to shake the wasp nest and have zero weight to them.

Edited May 18, 2023 by PDCWolf

[DunaManiac]

41 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

How about we stop there? IVA has never made a vessel operate any differently, additional engines have.

You haven't adressed any other part of my post. Until you do debating is difficult. I would like you to at least do that in this response.

Clouds haven't made any vessel operate any differently either. Nor would 8 bit graphics affect any vessel's performance. To rephrase my early point, "vital" ultimately comes down to the barebones. Even though other engines do affect gameplay, having more than one is not necessary to play the game. Everything else is nonvital. By continuing this point you concede that KSP2's current features are all "nonvital" fluff, and it feels like you're advocating that small QOL features (which KSP1 and 2 are sorely lacking in) are unecessary. To me, arguing that things KSP1 has and KSP2 doesn't are "fluff" is an empty attempt at denigrating KSP1 for no reason, and shows the arguer is mostly motivated out of petty bias rather than constructive criticism.

[CanaryLolz]

I think the probe has:

magnometer

antennas

mystery goo containment unit but 2 of them

some sort of spectrometer

and a camera

[Superfluous J]

I refuse to acknowledge anything Nate Simpson says without him first committing to a pinky swear and a promise that if he doesn't deliver, I'll get to drink his Coke.

Regarding vital features, we don't get to decide that. They do.

We get to decide if their choices are worth our money.

[K33N]

6 hours ago, Alexoff said:

Science is also not a vital element. In fact, it introduces restrictions on the use of parts, forcing you to go from the smallest and weakest to the most powerful and effective parts. You can simply create such restrictions in your imagination, for example, until you reach Dune, do not use parts larger than 1.5 m, nuclear engines only after Moho's visit, and so on.

No way. Game needs gameplay beyond playing pretend in a sandbox. Most KSP1 players do career.

[AtomicTech]

11 minutes ago, K33N said:

Most KSP1 players do career.

Not really; the majority is sandbox 

However, the most fun games often are the ones with the complexity of science and career 

[WelshSteW]

Science is going to add a lot to the game for me. Having something to do other than 'have a look around' will be massive.

[The Aziz]

8 hours ago, DunaManiac said:

Clouds haven't made any vessel operate any differently either.

Counterpoint: inability to see the ground below is a gamechanging mechanic. You don't know if after your deorbit burn you're ending up in the ocean or mountain slope.

[Yakuzi]

19 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

Counterpoint: inability to see the ground below is a gamechanging mechanic. You don't know if after your deorbit burn you're ending up in the ocean or mountain slope.

Counterpoint: IVA perspective is a gamechanging mechanic. You have a lot less overview than a chase cam and you have to pay more attention to maintain situational awareness of your surroundings.

[The Aziz]

You can switch from it. It's not like you're stuck to internal camera like in, idk, Elite Dangerous.

Can't turn off the clouds.

[PDCWolf]

1 hour ago, The Aziz said:

Counterpoint: inability to see the ground below is a gamechanging mechanic. You don't know if after your deorbit burn you're ending up in the ocean or mountain slope.

The clouds for now are all on the same height, and barely change in depth. They are a challenge once.

1 hour ago, The Aziz said:

Can't turn off the clouds.

Yet.

[Wheehaw Kerman]

2 hours ago, WelshSteW said:

Science is going to add a lot to the game for me. Having something to do other than 'have a look around' will be massive.

Having a look around is pretty fun, though.  The F2 and observe the prettiness for a while thing is not getting old for me.

[Scarecrow71]

3 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Counterpoint: inability to see the ground below is a gamechanging mechanic. You don't know if after your deorbit burn you're ending up in the ocean or mountain slope.

I disagree.  You can use map view to get an approximate idea of where you'll land (and probably used it that to plot the deorbit burn anyhow).  And you've got the altimeter which can switch distance to sea level and actual distance to the surface to determine if you'll hit water or not.

[Reusables]

19 hours ago, Wheehaw Kerman said:

So back in early 2020, I concluded that the global medical establishment would gear up, deal with COVID, and everything would be back to normal in a few years.  I was right, and I didn’t waste any time arguing with the angry folks who were doing their own research.

If you really care about being right on this, check in with me after 1.0 drops, or if the game gets cancelled.  If it turns out you are right, I’ll concede you (and the other naysayers) one (1) Internet Victory each.  

It’s not a biggie - those aren’t worth much.  I might even do a certificate in MSPaint that you can frame or something.

Uhm.. I also predicted it would be over in a few years. Rather surprisingly, it lasted longer than I thought. You are not alone in thinking this.

KSP 2 is whole another story, it could be cancelled at a whim of the company. You cannot just ignore Covid and call it a day, you have to deal with it so we dealt with it. KSP 2? No necessity other than the desire of not-so-large fan base.

[cocoscacao]

22 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

It's not a promise that we will get communication this week, but rather we MIGHT get communication this week. 

I'm curious if we will. I'm irritated by the comms in general.

[Meecrob]

3 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Counterpoint: inability to see the ground below is a gamechanging mechanic. You don't know if after your deorbit burn you're ending up in the ocean or mountain slope.

Umm. Either you calculate where the oceans will be when returning or you don't, and its a surprise...clouds or no clouds