hi, can we all cool down just a little? genuinely?

[Dakota]

41 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

Can we even glimpse into this future? .... We don't even know what science will look like! Bug fixes and new engines are nice, but that's not what the new game was made for. 

Sure. Look out for this Friday's Dev Update for some new science info.

[LoSBoL]

13 hours ago, Alexoff said:

That's what I wrote in brackets. "They" do what they want with the game, for some reason not everyone likes it

That's a nice red herring you've thrown here about use of brackets while I emphasized on the use of the Royal we.

[MiffedStarfish]

13 hours ago, Dakota said:

It's easy to get discouraged, especially with the vitriolic nature of some of the discourse around the game (more on that later) - and so we do our best to keep morale up and show how important KSP as a franchise is to you all. Just this past week, I got to share with the team a note sent to me from a community member about how critical KSP1 is to his relationship with his son who has a learning disability.

How is something lovely about KSP, (the original game, not KSP2) supposed to stop me being “discouraged” about your studio’s train wreck unaffiliated sequel? It’s pretty funny that there apparently wasn’t a positive thing or example to share about KSP2 for this.

And why on Earth would it be necessary to “show us” how important KSP - the game made by Squad - is to us? I think we’d already know that since it’s likely the only reason we’re here.

This hopeless company is well past the point of ever getting my trust back. 

[Superfluous J]

6 minutes ago, MiffedStarfish said:

How is something lovely about KSP, (the original game, not KSP2) supposed to stop me being “discouraged”

It's not. It's supposed to keep THEM from getting discouraged. From things like

6 minutes ago, MiffedStarfish said:

your studio’s train wreck unaffiliated sequel

 

[Superluminal Gremlin]

11 hours ago, Dakota said:

Friday's Dev Update

Oh man this is gonna be interesting (And very cool, we hope  ) *opens popcorn*

@Superfluous J Two words: Spot on.

 

Can you maybe wait, like 24 hours ish or so? Until Friday? Until the 20th?

 

[Wheehaw Kerman]

On 6/14/2023 at 5:30 AM, Sylvi Fisthaug said:

There probably always has been. But as the thread starter stated here, after KSP2 it has become much worse. I think each and everyone of us just wants it to stop, and stay together in supporting the developers in making a great game, and in turn make these forums a better place to be. 

We all agree on the game being a mess. But we don't agree on how critiscism is being thrown around on the forums, or how this critiscism is responded to by the other party. 

I just want it all to stop. 

I think that we’re all processing some level or another of disappointment and hope for the future of the game…  And we’re all doing it differently, in tone ranging from calm rational optimism to less than perfectly Spocklike detachment.  
 

We didn’t choose the state of the EA, but we can choose how we react to it, and generally, I lean hard into optimism.  It makes my life more pointless anger-free.  And the forums?  Well, IMHO tones of patient, rational, adult optimism in the face of the state of the EA are just plain more pleasant for others than miserable angry bitter pessimism.  We’re all here because we loved KSP and want KSP2 to be even more awesome.  That’s the key thing.  I can deal with my feelings about having to wait a while longer for the full game without constantly venting them at everyone all over the forums.

[Sylvi Fisthaug]

5 hours ago, Wheehaw Kerman said:

I think that we’re all processing some level or another of disappointment and hope for the future of the game…  And we’re all doing it differently, in tone ranging from calm rational optimism to less than perfectly Spocklike detachment.  
 

We didn’t choose the state of the EA, but we can choose how we react to it, and generally, I lean hard into optimism.  It makes my life more pointless anger-free.  And the forums?  Well, IMHO tones of patient, rational, adult optimism in the face of the state of the EA are just plain more pleasant for others than miserable angry bitter pessimism.  We’re all here because we loved KSP and want KSP2 to be even more awesome.  That’s the key thing.  I can deal with my feelings about having to wait a while longer for the full game without constantly venting them at everyone all over the forums.

This. One thousand times. 

[Starhawk]

Some off topic posts have been removed.  Please keep the discussion within the topic at hand.

Thank you for your understanding,
Forum Moderation Team

[DoesDoodles]

I'll be honest, I used to browse the KSP subreddit pretty actively, but I've stopped doing so. The inevitably negative conversations whenever KSP2 is mentioned in any way is exhausting, and is completely antithetical to the fun and encouraging community I'm used to seeing there. While I've never been quite as active on these forums, I've gotten similar impressions here.

I want to see this game live up to it's hype as much as anyone, I've spent 5500 hours in KSP and I want to spend at least a similar amount building an interstellar network of colonies. It's rough that it's not here yet, but being negative won't do anyone any good. I hope with time people can somewhat let go of their cynicism and just give the devs the time they need. I know it's not fun, nor ideal. But it would certainly make for a more fruitful and positive environment, which is something we could use more of in today's world.

 

[Dakitess]

I do agree, but... Well, re-read the thread if you want to get why it's as it's right now.

My bet is that no one here actually prefer being negative rather than enjoying the game.

[Alexoff]

4 hours ago, DoesDoodles said:

I hope with time people can somewhat let go of their cynicism and just give the devs the time they need.

Unfortunately, the problem is that the developers had three additional years that we waited and hoped to get the full game, and not early access. Why three years of polishing led to such a result, we can only guess, we will not get answers. So no one should be surprised by the dissatisfaction of a large number of fans.

[Alexoff]

On 6/15/2023 at 2:27 AM, Dakota said:

Sure. Look out for this Friday's Dev Update for some new science info.

I thought we would see something more definite than "there will be a new science transfer system, new missions, new science parts, a new techtree". This is where the dissatisfaction of the fans comes from.

[LittleBitMore]

1 hour ago, Alexoff said:

Unfortunately, the problem is that the developers had three additional years that we waited and hoped to get the full game, and not early access. Why three years of polishing led to such a result, we can only guess, we will not get answers. So no one should be surprised by the dissatisfaction of a large number of fans.

Everyone's dissatisfied in some way, shape, or form, and there's nothing wrong about anyone's dissatisfaction. I'm dissatisfied as heck too, and I don't play KSP2 much at all except to test a new patch to see if I can finally land on the Mun without my mission going boom, or to goof off with planes.

The main bad outcome of the dissatisfaction is, when people take it to an extreme, it eventually turns any discussion of KSP2 into endless flame warring. I'm not a big fan of the current state of KSP2, and I'm all for giving feedback on what's bad with the game and what the community needs to have improved in the game, but I also don't want to yell at the developers and accuse them of random things, nor do the same thing towards anyone defending the dev team.  That's a huge theme I tried to emphasize on in my post: negative/constructive feedback is good, harsh and rude feedback is needless and community-splitting. Constructive criticism is vital to the development of an early access game. If nobody goes "hey devs there's a bug here" or "hey devs I really don't like this thing here" or "hey devs can we get an update on the state of this feature here", the game simply cannot improve as fast, and cannot have as good of community interactions and transparency. However, the thing I really want to emphasize, is there is a balance where constructive criticism about the dissatisfying state of the game can be delivered without the whole insulting people or being generally less than nice deal. That kind of shortness, rudeness and accusatoriness (is that a word? I hope it's a word) with the development team, and even with the community members on the other side of the debate (both sides of the debate have been mean to eachother, this isn't just a "this side unequivocally bad, this side irrefutably good" thing) that I see so often is the main thing I disagree with.

That's at least my point of view though, and I'm sure other people have other ways of putting things

(also ignore any formatting or grammar issues, I'm both on mobile and multitasking)

[Alexoff]

39 minutes ago, LittleBitMore said:

The main bad outcome of the dissatisfaction is, when people take it to an extreme, it eventually turns any discussion of KSP2 into endless flame warring.

It's not just about the current situation, but also about the backstory and what happened after the release. We were first promised a dream game back in the spring of 2020, then the game was constantly delayed. Here we were told that this is for polishing the game. Then all the new features fell off the game, the day before the release it turned out that there would be no part of the old features, with the release we found out that in fact the game was even less. For a week, the developers disappeared from social networks, then Nate said in an interview that he thinks that the game is ok and worth the money, that the team is proud of the result, his colleagues spoke at the unity conference, then Nate decided to notify us that he was going on vacation. None of the developers apologized to us, did not try to justify themselves. Personally, I think ST management has done a lot of outrageous things. And other players protect them, but I don’t understand - are the developers worthy of such care? How can you start over with a clean slate if someone took advantage of your trust and then didn't even explain or apologize? It turns out that part of the community is to blame, which does not help them with solving bug problems. And the other part of the community should come up with explanations for developers. Something is wrong here.
Many players have simply moved away from KSP2, this is one of the games in their piggy bank, they will go to do something else. Only the most passionate fans remained.

[Spicat]

11 hours ago, Alexoff said:

For a week, the developers disappeared from social networks

This is a bit false, but that's probably because I have a different experience coming from the discord:

 

[ChrisShourai]

On 6/14/2023 at 4:43 PM, Alexoff said:

Can we even glimpse into this future? After all, we have never seen a working colony, we do not understand how colonies will be built. We haven't seen huge parts for megaships for a very long time. We don't even know what science will look like! Bug fixes and new engines are nice, but that's not what the new game was made for. Today the roadmap looks like a teapot of Russell - it is completely incomprehensible what is happening there.

I think this is where I strongly land.

My thoughts in addition; While I agree with the KSP team that positivity and looking forward needs to happen, you also have to understand that when you do something “wrong” or “not what we intended” (fill in any blank with similar) you DO owe something for reconciliation. You can just shrug and ask the entire customer base/community to just move on and continue to take your word for it. We took your word for it when you blasted social media, gaming sites, YouTube et al with what appeared to be a mostly realized roadmap of a game (colony shots, space VAB shots, etc) and spoke at length about what the team had seemingly already accomplished - “we’ve slayed the kraken!” - and then on EA launch we see the reality of development. 

You sold us all (those who bought EA for an insane EA price) a version of a game that was clearly marketed (EA was marketed this way, not the full game BTW!) way beyond what seemly was true. So yes, we all have a right to be very leery about everything else you say now prior to what you produce.

I do believe the KSP Team has full intention to rectify the game and deliver on the promised roadmap goals and live up to the dream you and us all collectively have, but you also made a few big mid-steps and asking us to continue to trust you blindly moving forward is just a tough pill to swallow.

The fact that you refuse to show anything in development regarding even the first roadmap milestone - science - much less anything else, can only suggest to me you had and have nothing at all developed in an even marginally playable state which was so vastly contrary to what was sold to us prior to the EA date. If this wasn’t EA and wasn’t and already announced game and didn’t cost me $50 and didn’t have a plethora of marketing making it look mostly completed then keep your secrets, but all of that I did happen and in the world of EA and open development you get an F. Do better, for all our sakes. We gave almost a full retail price worth of $, you gave us an unplayable state of an EA game at EA launch. Shame isn’t on our end. 
 

Thanks for listening and I truly hope you guys get to the finish line and make yourselves and everyone else proud, just do better moving forward, please. 

[Alexoff]

1 hour ago, ChrisShourai said:

The fact that you refuse to show anything in development regarding even the first roadmap milestone - science - much less anything else, can only suggest to me you had and have nothing at all developed in an even marginally playable state which was so vastly contrary to what was sold to us prior to the EA date.

This is where DSP immediately came to my mind - back in October, the developers showed an impressive video about the combat system in their game in early access. They recently talked about how they set up this system so that performance does not suffer in the game. And for some reason, no one has any doubts that the result will be achieved. And in the case of science in KSP2, we saw only the animation of taking a soil sample and one part. Maybe I'm wrong, but can an ordinary outsourcer do a similar job in a couple of days for a hundred bucks? Other steps on the roadmap look more like rough plans, and not like parts of the game being finalized at the moment.

[LittleBitMore]

i'm pretty sure they've already shown us a lot about how the science works, and talked about it a lot?

[TickleMyMary]

3 hours ago, LittleBitMore said:

i'm pretty sure they've already shown us a lot about how the science works, and talked about it a lot?

Have they? How does the science work then and what is it going to be like?

I'm intrigued!

FYI... They've shown us ONE part and said nothing more... There was meant to be news about it in this weeks post but that went up in smoke along with most promises from the CM's.

Edited June 18, 2023 by TickleMyMary

[MarcAbaddon]

4 hours ago, LittleBitMore said:

i'm pretty sure they've already shown us a lot about how the science works, and talked about it a lot?

They didn't. Generally, they don't go into any kind of detail on gameplay systems. They might show some parts, but don't talk about the systems behind them. Even on colonies we only have the very old information that there are some kind of population boom events and that milk runs will be automated, but no details on anything.

Edited June 18, 2023 by MarcAbaddon

[Gargamel]

Let’s not forget the topic for this thread, which is how the community here has been treating its fellow members.     Let’s steer away from bashing the devs (we have how many other threads for that?) and back onto the original topic.   

[Sirad]

I think there are Plenty people that dont need to cool down, they dodged that Bullet by not ever Buying any early access product again.

But i can understand the uprise because the state of the Game was not clearly communicated and anyone who had not burned his purse often enough by buying early access believed the hype and the 'promotional videos'. I *can* understand a specific amount of saltyness.

But: some of that has gone to far and decisions like 'releasing an unfinished product as early acess for monetarization without the risk of legal issues' is a management decision. No one HERE is responsible and i bet, they wont show up here. So why attacking here anyone because the target is not HERE.

I will, if the Game will be finished, happily buy KSP2, even for double price.

But i will never ever again Buy early access. Thats like Buying a New Car that has no engine and wheels and giving away the right to force the selling company to deliver me the missing parts [no pun intended]

 

 

 

[BechMeister]

@Sirad I have long had a personal rule that I did not buy early access games.. But that's because I had a lot of bad experiences with Early Access games that never got finished or was changed to something else due to - in my opinion - bad suggestions for balancing.

How ever.. i made an exception for KSP2 - I was well aware of the state the game was in, and it lived up to my expectations... So its a bit interesting that you said it was not telegraphed well enough? (No shaming! I am genuine here) - 

in any case I have found great comradery in the bug finding and squashing. I don't know if its because im a long time eve player.. that i dont mind slow progress in bugy games.. or because I've played a lot of Bethesda games x) - I think I forgot what point I was going towards..

I guess I just want to say that it seems a lot of new players are in fact enjoying KSP2 - and its the KSP1 veterans that are most angry with the state of the game. (thats just my observation)

[Sirad]

19 minutes ago, BechMeister said:

How ever.. i made an exception for KSP2 - I was well aware of the state the game was in, and it lived up to my expectations... So its a bit interesting that you said it was not telegraphed well enough? (No shaming! I am genuine here)

Well. Maybe the differences in Personal experience? As we are all differend kind of players (from the 'dedicated' ones to the 'casual that just plays it rarely')

So we all have different mileages in 'was it well enough communicated' and that should be an acceptable thing. Most players didnt even know about this forum and others dont check frequently enough (like me) some even just joined here first time ever to vent their anger,

and also, different Players expect different levels of 'playable'. I always try to Adapt different views.

The Uprise as it was, was still too much but a certain level can be understood (as explained my first post)

 

 

 

[BechMeister]

Maybe - tbh I didn't know the forum before I started to bug report. I used to only engage casually with KSP1 - mostly just watching youtube videos of the game. 

How ever, I have been low key following the KSP2 since it was announced 3 years ago.  But up until release I started to read what I could find about it and figured it would be like paying to Beta or Alpha test the game - I wanted to support the developers and bought it. It lived up to my expectations... and since release I have clocked  344h as of now - which i think is quite impressive giving im also juggling a full time study and being a father to 2 small children x)
 

14 minutes ago, Sirad said:

The Uprise as it was, was still too much but a certain level can be understood (as explained my first post)

Maybe - but maybe its directed at the wrong place. Was it the devs that decided to launch now? was it the men in suits? - was it launched now because otherwise it would not get out? In my experience the people actually building the game are very passionate about their projects and want to release them in as good a state as possible.

I dont know.. I've read quite a few posts from veteran KSP1 players who say that KSP1 also had a rocky start when it was in beta - sure you can talk about the price.. I guess its high - but its you who decide to buy or not. 

When I bought the game. I knew that it was buggy, had little to no features and was gonna be like beta testing the game - meaning its more about finding and reporting bugs and investigating bugs than playing. I knew the roadmap was without dates - I accepted that they didn't want to put dates because dates are seldom met any way (which is also my experience with previous early access games) and that was the foundation that I decided to do my purchase on.

Edited June 18, 2023 by BechMeister