Take Two Interactive (Rockstar, 2K, Private Division) canceling games, ending projects and laying off 5% of its workforce

[Infinite Aerospace]

19 minutes ago, Uuky said:

It means the project is still alive. Until further notice.  That's all. 

For the branch name,  it can be anything. At least it isn't "Titanic" which would have been worrying.

 

Next question being, why continue to develop a project you are intending to axe at the end of June? I think there's a decent chance the 0.2.2 patch will drop in the next week or two, with some communication from Nate and there's a very outside chance the next update could be Colonies related, perhaps aimed for the final curtain. I guess it depends how the progress on that has been. But it does point toward the game being handed over, rather than cancelled IMO.

[sturmhauke]

My guess is a handful of senior devs were offered a bonus to stay a little longer and wrap up whatever they reasonably could.

[Uuky]

37 minutes ago, Infinite Aerospace said:

Next question being, why continue to develop a project you are intending to axe at the end of June? I think there's a decent chance the 0.2.2 patch will drop in the next week or two, with some communication from Nate and there's a very outside chance the next update could be Colonies related, perhaps aimed for the final curtain. I guess it depends how the progress on that has been. But it does point toward the game being handed over, rather than cancelled IMO.

For me it is simply they create a new studio. I guess the fiscal closure in july 1st in WA is not completely coincidental to the june closure. 

 

[Lisias]

5 hours ago, Infinite Aerospace said:

Next question being, why continue to develop a project you are intending to axe at the end of June? I think there's a decent chance the 0.2.2 patch will drop in the next week or two, with some communication from Nate and there's a very outside chance the next update could be Colonies related, perhaps aimed for the final curtain. I guess it depends how the progress on that has been. But it does point toward the game being handed over, rather than cancelled IMO.

To minimize the risks of class actions, probably.

They made a huge lot of promises while selling the game (being on E.A. or not, it's irrelevant - the Bureau of Consumer Protection have the final word about the subject in USA - and I'm kindly ignoring pertinent foreign legislation).

No matter what they say to you, EULAs are not licenses, are contracts and as any contract, can be questioned on a Court of Law - even with the mediator clause in effect, a situation that will demand to question that clause first and, if won, then proceed with the suit.

That said, I'm not saying this is class action material. I'm saying that a class action is possible (if it will stick or not, dunno), and if they are really going to bury the franchise on a landfill (Atari style), then it makes sense to push hard to deliver all that promises the less worst possible (as long it costs them less than a hypothetical class action).

Edited May 5 by Lisias
Entertaining grammars made slightely less entertaining...

[Infinite Aerospace]

3 hours ago, Lisias said:

To minimize the risks of class actions, probably.

They made a huge lot of promises while selling the game (being on E.A. or not, it's irrelevant - the Bureau of Consumer Protection have the final word about the subject in USA - and I'm kindly ignoring pertinent foreign legislation).

No matter what they say to you, EULAs are not licenses, are contracts and as any contract, can be questioned on a Court of Law - even with the mediator clause in effect, a situation that will demand first to question that clause first and, if won, then proceed with the suit.

That said, I'm not saying this is class action material. I'm saying that a class action is possible (if will stick or not, dunno), and if they are really going to bury the franchise on a landfill (Atari style), then it makes sense to push hard to deliver all that promises the less worst possible (as long it costs them less than a hypothetical class action).

That and no-one has said 'Development of Kerbal Space Program will cease', that and there are development branches on Steam receiving regular updates, so someone is still doing something regarding the game, I would assume it's the folks at Intercept until their closure at the end of June. Perhaps they've been told something along the lines of get "Get 0.3 wrapped up before the deadline and hand-over". I don't know, I hope so.

[Yakuzi]

On 5/3/2024 at 5:31 AM, Jaypeg said:

There is a lot of misinformation

You don't say... Let's have another look at your previous claims in context:

On 5/2/2024 at 3:37 AM, Great Liao said:

Unfortunately lol. I swear to god Nate Simpson is going to end up the CEO of take two with the amount of times he's scammed people and got away with it.

On 5/2/2024 at 3:50 AM, Jaypeg said:

not how it works
creative direction aint the one in charge in that kinda way.
That would be upper management.

On 5/2/2024 at 3:54 AM, Icegrx said:

You’re pointing the finger at the wrong person. Point higher. 

On 5/2/2024 at 3:57 AM, Flush Foot said:

TT CEO?

On 5/2/2024 at 4:02 AM, Jaypeg said:

Uber entertainment CEO.
They've done this twice before

Again, how exactly has the former Uber Entertainment CEO been in charge (your words) of KSP2 development over the last 4 years? Be sure to include your sources.

 

On 5/3/2024 at 5:31 AM, Jaypeg said:

During the ST-IG overtake dev was reset, then the new game dev team was hit by covid. This puts us at approx 4 years of dev, maximum.

This is false according to the developer.

 

On 5/3/2024 at 5:31 AM, Jaypeg said:

When it comes to management, the CEO of Uber entertainment was fired, ...

The CEO of Uber was fired? Source?

 

On 5/3/2024 at 5:31 AM, Jaypeg said:

... but a lot of the other highups were actually moved across. Thats bad.

I agree, moving the "highups" across  was a bad move. So which three leaders made the jump from Uber entertainment to PS/Take Two immediately? Be sure to include your sources.

 

 

On 5/3/2024 at 3:44 PM, Infinite Aerospace said:

Herein lies the main reason I don't understand bringing the axe down, they're going to lose money regardless but only one of the options has a chance of generating revenue at some point.

You're perfectly describing the Sunk Cost fallacy, wherein lies the answer to your question.

 

 

On 5/4/2024 at 3:49 PM, Kerbart said:

The advertised publication date ("Spring 2021" and so on)

* Spring 2020

 

 

On 5/3/2024 at 4:19 PM, steveman0 said:

This is the crux of it. The past year has been apparently a lot of time fixing foundational issues. They've had an upward trajectory as of late, but we can't know how much more work there is to be done to get to 1.0. It could be they are nearly out of the woods and colonies will be a big turning point with many on the fence ready to commit to purchase... but it's also possible the remaining milestones could still be mired with a ton of work.

There is a ton of potential untapped revenue, but if it will take 4+ years to realize it, I couldn't blame them for not taking the risk. It could just be the timing is coincidental that T2 needs to make cuts and they are restructuring to cut costs and hopefully streamline the remaining development work to 1.0 with the full expectation that despite the turmoil the restructuring will cause that they are still lined up for a big success by 1.0.

Nah mate. The crux of it is that the developer has proven to be incompetent time and again over the last ~7 years. Not just to deliver on their promises the community, but to Take Two as well. That the game's foundation requires so much fixing after all this time shows just how out of their league they were to write a solid core engine... And it's still in an abysmal state today, riddled with deep rooted bugs and severe performance issues that make KSP2 run way.... way worse than it's predecessor.

And don't forget this is before all the features on the EA roadmap have even been brought online... From what the developer has shown us in the trailers, the game engine is supposed to run high complexity interstellar motherships bearing multiple landers and satellites, while managing the logistics of a host of colonies and space stations on and around multiple planets and moons in different star systems through high-fidelity physics simulations... of 16 players in multiplayer. Honestly, do you think the current state of the game constitutes anything that would make it a solid foundation?

So there isn't "a ton" of potential... there's no potential at all, neither in realising the game that was promised, nor in "untapped revenue". Take Two was absolutely right to pull the plug from this project, and I'm fairly certain they would have despite the "need to make cuts" (wouldn't surprise me if there'd be less than 5% layoffs if KSP2/IG wasn't in their portfolio). I can only fault Take Two for selecting these devs to create KSP2, then putting the same leaders in charge after the hostile Uber take-over, and for not eliminating KSP2 way... way earlier,... cause the signs of BS upselling of these devs have been there all along.

 

* @Flush Foot my apologies for including your comment again, not directed at you!

Edited May 5 by Yakuzi

[MechBFP]

15 minutes ago, Yakuzi said:

Take Two was absolutely right to pull the plug from this project

The issue is that you seem to be making the assumption that they pulled the rug on this project specifically because of their performance. Take Two went and pulled the rug on all of PD all at once. There isn't any information that IG was specifically targeted for any reason. From what the information we do have though, it appears as they they were simply caught up in it and likely would have been impacted even if the game was already at 1.0. After all if even Roll7 wasn't safe, despite actually releasing multiple projects,  what hope would IG have had?

Edited May 5 by MechBFP

[Fizzlebop Smith]

21 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

The issue is that you seem to be making the assumption that they pulled the rug on this project specifically because of their performance. Take Two went and pulled the rug on all of PD all at once. There isn't any information that IG was specifically targeted for any reason. From what the information we do have though, it appears as they they were simply caught up in it and likely would have been impacted even if the game was already at 1.0. After all if even Roll7 wasn't safe, despite actually releasing multiple projects,  what hope would IG have had?

I disagree.

I think the fact that the entire developer was pruned, proves the point of @Yakuzi.

If they came in and cleaned house to clean up general inefficiency, you would have seen a reduction intercept staff.

The fact that the WARN noticed extended to the entire  company.. and the comment about the *label* will continue to support KSP2 & tales from the shire.. is a sure sign that the developer as a whole was underperforming.

[MechBFP]

14 minutes ago, Fizzlebop Smith said:

I disagree.

I think the fact that the entire developer was pruned, proves the point of @Yakuzi.

If they came in and cleaned house to clean up general inefficiency, you would have seen a reduction intercept staff.

The fact that the WARN noticed extended to the entire  company.. and the comment about the *label* will continue to support KSP2 & tales from the shire.. is a sure sign that the developer as a whole was underperforming.

We have no idea if the entire developer team was pruned at this point. That is just an assumption that Take Two only had IG working in Seattle and no one else and therefore that WARN notice only applies to them. We do know however that they were working on an unannounced project in Seattle. We have no idea who was working on it though, if they were all IG,  partly IG, PD, contractors, 100% remote, in office in Seattle, etc.

Can anyone here actually prove that Take Two didn't have any other resources working in office space in Seattle?  I don't care either way I would just welcome the information if anyone actually has definitive information on that since that is a big unknown at this point.

If the WARN notice had simply said "Interact Games" this would have been much more clear cut.

Edited May 5 by MechBFP

[Westinghouse]

1 hour ago, MechBFP said:

Can anyone here actually prove that Take Two didn't have any other resources working in office space in Seattle?  I don't care either way I would just welcome the information if anyone actually has definitive information on that since that is a big unknown at this point.

No-one outside of Take Two can prove anything at this point, but most of us can put 2 plus 2 together, notice the government warning about the office closure, also notice multiple members of the Intercept staff have announced they're looking for work on twitter, and come to the conclusion that Intercept Games has been shuttered.

Of course, there's the possibility they've kept on a skeleton crew of software engineers to somehow push out a viable 1.0 release. But is that worth Take Two's time and money? Never mind whether it's even possible. As @Yakuzi mentions above, there's just too many things wrong with their underlying engine framework even fourteen months after release. Docking still being broken, terrain glitches and vessel glitching apart, orbits still having problems (currently the orbit line disappearing, pretty damning IMO that they never managed to get orbits working robustly in a space simulation game!), plus all the little things such as that silly bug with ghost Kerbals appearing inside empty crew capsules. All this points to a bloated and broken game engine they just don't have a handle on.

Again, putting 2+2 together here, but all the evidence points to Take2 finally cutting their losses and killing the game. It's probably what I would have done faced with the same mess.

[Jacke]

11 hours ago, Infinite Aerospace said:

I've gotta ask, if Intercept Games is no more, Kerbal Space Program development has stopped and the game is dead.........who is updating the development branches? Going by the Steam DB there's been numerous updates to numerous branches (one yesterday to a branch titled 'Voyager'). Whilst I'm not reading too much into what that does or doesn't mean, it's certainly interesting.

Some of the KSP 2 Devs were transferred to Private Division.  That's likely work that was in the pipeline and the few being kept on are pushing that out.

It's like the twitchings of a corpse.  Doesn't change the fact that, "It's dead, Jim."

[MechBFP]

35 minutes ago, Westinghouse said:

Again, putting 2+2 together here, but all the evidence points to Take2 finally cutting their losses and killing the game.

So they had to gut their (PD’s) 3 other studios at the same time because they didn’t like the progress on this game? Seems like overkill to me but sure. 

Edited May 5 by MechBFP

[jost]

Well both things doesn't need to contradict each other. Maybe c-level decided two things:

- Ok let's cut our losses, we dump KSP2. 

- Hm, the remaining studios are bleeding too much money too, best we gut them too.

I don't know what happened but this one of multiple possibles scenarios  

Edited May 5 by jost
Fixed typos

[MechBFP]

Just now, jost said:

Well both things doesn't need to contradict each other. Maybe c-level decided two things:

- Ok let's cut our losses, we dump KSP2. 

- Hm, the remaining studios are Blendung to much money too, best we gut them too.

I don't know what happened but this one of multiple possibles scenarios  

I wonder what thing all those studios had in common that caused them to be unprofitable in the end. 

[J.Random]

12 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

So they had to gut their (PD’s) 3 other studios at the same time because they didn’t like the progress on this game? Seems like overkill to me but sure. 

Google "decimation".

[sturmhauke]

26 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

So they had to gut their (PD’s) 3 other studios at the same time because they didn’t like the progress on this game? Seems like overkill to me but sure. 

Corporations these days have gotten far too greedy and shortsighted.  Projects can be cut loose not just for simply failing, but for not making "enough" money. There are lots of cases where a bunch of staff was laid off and the execs got fat bonuses.

[Kerbart]

50 minutes ago, jost said:

Well both things doesn't need to contradict each other. Maybe c-level decided two things:

- Ok let's cut our losses, we dump KSP2. 

- Hm, the remaining studios are bleeding too much money too, best we gut them too.

I don't know what happened but this one of multiple possibles scenarios  

you're looking at it backwards. they announced earlier cutting 5% of their workforce. upstart projects leaking money left and right are just the most likely candidates.

[jost]

39 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

you're looking at it backwards. they announced earlier cutting 5% of their workforce. upstart projects leaking money left and right are just the most likely candidates.

Of course it's more likely that they first decided to cut their workforce and then looked up where the most potential cost saving would be possible. My whole point was that closing IG due to KSP2 not generating profit and closing three other studios due to not generating (enough) profit doesn't contradict each other. At least from a business point of view.
On a human/fellow sysadmin/fellow developer point of view  I have more sympathies for the staff of IG and the other studios though:  Loosing your job sucks and I don't wish this on anyone.

Edited May 5 by jost

[Jaypeg]

On 5/4/2024 at 8:35 PM, Stevie_D said:

As Pulstar says, you shouldn't get your hopes up by that. It's the same difference between "developing" a game and "supporting" a game (the terminology the corporate press release used). Just because you support a game it does not mean that game is actively being worked on. 
Handing off the game to another group could be handing it over to 2 people who just manage the steam account for it. I'm not saying that will be the case, but it's an example of why you shouldn't read too much into that term.

Whatever happens, one thing is certain - this game is not going to continue on in the same manner it has been up to now. The 5% layoff by Take 2 included nearly *all* Intercept employees - that tells you something. If they laid off 5% of their workforce evenly then only 5% of Intercept Games employees would've been affected. 90% is the region we're looking at for Intercept, and that's a conservative estimate. Even if they rehire some of them, you wouldn't close the entire studio if you had a similar workforce. You close the physical building because you do not need a building for that many people anymore. Half the size? A quarter? 1 single office room in Private Division's HQ because only 5 people will now work on the game? Who knows. But if any future development does happen on this game, it will be *greatly* reduced. I'd be highly surprised if the road map stays the same as it is at the very least.

They also shutdown R7 and OlliOlli

[Jaypeg]

7 hours ago, Yakuzi said:

You don't say... Let's have another look at your previous claims in context:

Again, how exactly has the former Uber Entertainment CEO been in charge (your words) of KSP2 development over the last 4 years? Be sure to include your sources.

 

This is false according to the developer.

 

The CEO of Uber was fired? Source?

 

I agree, moving the "highups" across  was a bad move. So which three leaders made the jump from Uber entertainment to PS/Take Two immediately? Be sure to include your sources.

 

 

You're perfectly describing the Sunk Cost fallacy, wherein lies the answer to your question.

 

 

* Spring 2020

 

 

Nah mate. The crux of it is that the developer has proven to be incompetent time and again over the last ~7 years. Not just to deliver on their promises the community, but to Take Two as well. That the game's foundation requires so much fixing after all this time shows just how out of their league they were to write a solid core engine... And it's still in an abysmal state today, riddled with deep rooted bugs and severe performance issues that make KSP2 run way.... way worse than it's predecessor.

And don't forget this is before all the features on the EA roadmap have even been brought online... From what the developer has shown us in the trailers, the game engine is supposed to run high complexity interstellar motherships bearing multiple landers and satellites, while managing the logistics of a host of colonies and space stations on and around multiple planets and moons in different star systems through high-fidelity physics simulations... of 16 players in multiplayer. Honestly, do you think the current state of the game constitutes anything that would make it a solid foundation?

So there isn't "a ton" of potential... there's no potential at all, neither in realising the game that was promised, nor in "untapped revenue". Take Two was absolutely right to pull the plug from this project, and I'm fairly certain they would have despite the "need to make cuts" (wouldn't surprise me if there'd be less than 5% layoffs if KSP2/IG wasn't in their portfolio). I can only fault Take Two for selecting these devs to create KSP2, then putting the same leaders in charge after the hostile Uber take-over, and for not eliminating KSP2 way... way earlier,... cause the signs of BS upselling of these devs have been there all along.

 

* @Flush Foot my apologies for including your comment again, not directed at you!

I agree with most of your arguments except the last bit.

The current state of the game but their fixing of so many deep-rooted bugs and its current stability (considering its launch) shows its workable, and able to do more than ksp 1 with burn under timewarp and its new terrain systems. I think it does have potential, but just as it was turning around (and playable) its truly sad that they pulled the plug before the stuff the game was designed to do (interstellar, colonies) were not able to have been shown.

Also they have also laid of R7 - a very popular and successful dev studio, the one behind OlliOlli for the same reasons, so its not what you said in P2.

3 hours ago, jost said:

Of course it's more likely that they first decided to cut their workforce and then looked up where the most potential cost saving would be possible. My whole point was that closing IG due to KSP2 not generating profit and closing three other studios due to not generating (enough) profit doesn't contradict each other. At least from a business point of view.
On a human/fellow sysadmin/fellow developer point of view  I have more sympathies for the staff of IG and the other studios though:  Loosing your job sucks and I don't wish this on anyone.

Oh thank goodness this part of the community is still nice. I saw people celebrating them losing their jobs on the reddit.

4 hours ago, MechBFP said:

I wonder what thing all those studios had in common that caused them to be unprofitable in the end. 

R7 was super profitable - OlliOlli world was the highest selling new switch game for two months when it came out

15 hours ago, Uuky said:

It means the project is still alive. Until further notice.  That's all. 

For the branch name,  it can be anything. At least it isn't "Titanic" which would have been worrying.

 

lol

[MechBFP]

16 minutes ago, Jaypeg said:

R7 was super profitable

Apparently not enough eh?

[Pthigrivi]

I will say to folks who have placed a god-like imagination of financial omniscience on higher-ups at major companies or even ‘the market’ at large the following: Many of these folks are my clients. Some of them are very clever.  Some of them are clowns putting on an act until they get caught. Most of them got there by luck, good contacts, and or nepotism. Some of them are actual idiots. The system we live in produces many things but never pretend that it is a meritocracy. It is not. A company worth a billion dollars absolutely should be planning ahead 20 years but they don’t. They plan as far ahead as the next report to investors and much like the system writ large investors are a collection of clever people and overentitled morons. They don’t know what they’re doing either.  Its just a school of scavengers scrambling over each other for whalefall. 

Edited May 6 by Pthigrivi

[Superfluous J]

On 5/4/2024 at 4:13 PM, KincaidFrankMF said:

[Juno] appears to be 60% off right now

A brilliant marketing move, or a very luckly coincidence for them.

I try Juno a couple times a year since buying it, and have never played it for more than an hour before setting it aside again. I don't know how much of my issues with it are "that's not how KSP does it" and how many are "okay that's objectively bad" but I just... never enjoy playing it.

7 hours ago, MechBFP said:

So they had to gut their (PD’s) 3 other studios at the same time because they didn’t like the progress on this game? Seems like overkill to me but sure. 

Maybe they didn't like the progress on all the games all 4 studios were making.

Seems like maybe the problem isn't IG so much as PD.

Edited May 6 by Superfluous J

[sturmhauke]

Juno is ok, but it's kind of bland. Also, aircraft don't really fly well.

[VlonaldKerman]

12 minutes ago, sturmhauke said:

Juno is ok, but it's kind of bland. Also, aircraft don't really fly well.

I think people underestimate how much the personality and charisma of the Kerbals is responsible for the success of the game. I also feel like Juno is bland, even if it is better on paper in some or many ways.