An update of sorts from your forum moderation team.

[Fizzlebop Smith]

6 hours ago, Izny said:

Organization:

Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc.

Street:

110 W 44th St.

City:

New York

State:

NY

Postal Code:

10036

Country:

US

Phone:

+1.6465362842

Fax:

+1.6465362926


Maybe we should just call em and ask? 

All of us. 
every day.


all day.

I would like to add a +1 to this being a terrible idea.

If you would like to communicate with someone a take two directly.. do so through the usually channels available & approach it from a stance of what the community mean to you.

There is a turning point where our outrage will transform from asset to liability.

Like morale in the workplace, this is a difficult topic to attach quantifiable metrics.

Take Two has hemorrhaged money over the last few reports & are seeking to stem the tide at any cost.

If it should be perceived that we could create enough of a stink to drop the stock another fraction of a point.. goodbye forum.

I feel an organized campaign against distributing platforms would be better spent. While still fruitless.

 

[Lisias]

20 hours ago, Izny said:

<....>

Maybe we should just call em and ask? 

All of us. 
every day.


all day.

Both @Lonelykermit and @Fizzlebop Smith had already addressed why this would be a terrible idea.

My turn is to explain how to rework it in a way that it could help us.

First things first, they know they screwed the pooch. Badly, they don't need us to remember them all the time. Being them guilty, responsible or victim of the problem, they are still humans and people don't like to have their borks rubbed in their face all the time.

So, what exactly we want? Well, we want to keep Forum running.

Who can do that? T2.

Now, put yourself in their shoes: if YOU were the one responsible for all this mess, including Forum, how do you would want to people reach you about? Being called all day, as you would be a deadbeat being pursued by collectors?

I don't know you, but if something I'm paying for starts to cost me my money and my patience beyound the potential earnings I could get from it, I would shut down the damned thing.

So, another line of action is needed. We need to reach a win-win situation - we keep the Forums, and they get something back (or avoid losing something). What, so, bring this question to the table: what we are willing to do to help them helping us on keeping the Forum alive?

I'm open to ideas.

But one possible idea would be, well, writing a letter. Good, old and out of fashion polite and supporting letter - hand written and sent by postal, paying for the stamp.

Quote

Dear sirs,

I'm writing you this letter to respectfully bring to your attention that KSP - besides the major setbacks we got - is still a viable Franchise, and that we, KSP enthusiasts, are willing to support the game for a long time ahead.

We would appreciate that such support could be exercised on http://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com , as this site is of great historical importance to us - and to the game itself.

Please help us on supporting this marvelous game by keeping Forum alive. You will find in us an ally on keeping the game relevant.

Thanks for your attention,

<us>

Or something like that.

People writing letters and paying for the stamp shows engagement and interest. Sending emails and electronic messages are low effort, but a properly written letter o the T2's ombudsman or whoever is responsible there for handling customers is something else.

Of course, I don't have the slightest idea if this would work or not, but at least this will not hurt neither - what makes it a way better option than peskying them until someone decides that enough is enough and pull the plug to cease the harassment.

Just my 2 cents, anyway - perhaps doing nothing would be the best option.

 

Edited July 13 by Lisias
Entertaining grammars made slightely less entertaining...

[Izny]

12 minutes ago, Lisias said:

snip

 

Ombudsman? Naah, ima call T2 and demand to speak to the manager. 

I'll introduce myself as Karen ^^


But, if they have to keep answering calls all day, every day, with the question, even after they would shut it down to retaliate for being called (riiiiiiiight...), at some point they'll have to cave, reinstate the forums, and offer an apology. 

Make sure to make a youtube video of every call, and put it on facebook. 

T2 will care about public opinion. 


Come on, let's put in some effort together instead of writing angry letters shall we?

 

Yes, answering phones can cost them more than keeping a forum running, since people who answer the phone need to be paid as well

Edited July 12 by Izny

[Deddly]

5 minutes ago, Izny said:

reinstate the forums

I think there might be a misunderstanding here. T2 have never said they will close the forums. We just haven't heard what their plans are and some of us are concerned as to what the future might be. If the forums close, that would be the time to call them, if that's what you want to do.  

Best not get ahead of ourselves

[Izny]

1 minute ago, Deddly said:

I think there might be a misunderstanding here. T2 have never said they will close the forums. We just haven't heard what their plans are and some of us are concerned as to what the future might be. If the forums close, that would be the time to call them, if that's what you want to do.  

Best not get ahead of ourselves

That was a reaction to people being scared they'd close the forum out of retaliation for calling them. I went with their theory and extrapolated. 

Come on man, keep up

 

[Fizzlebop Smith]

So funny @Lisias suggest a hand written  letter.

I wrote one last night asking for someone to ensure the forum is maintained. I felt the digital age would preclude any number from following suite, but think it great advice. If nothing else, I felt better afterward. Like I may have contributed in some small way.

[Lisias]

49 minutes ago, Izny said:

But, if they have to keep answering calls all day, every day, with the question, even after they would shut it down to retaliate for being called (riiiiiiiight...), at some point they'll have to cave, reinstate the forums, and offer an apology.

It would not be retaliation, it would be damage control. Do you know the phrase "We don't negotiate with terrorists"? It's the same principle.

If they budge on any harassment campaign, they will encourage more harassment campaigns in the future. It's simple like that. As a matter of fact, it would be probably what I would do - if this Forum became a magnet for toxic people I would not want my name associated to it... They have other games and other Forums to care about.

There're places for harsh measures against bad company policies on a Society - but this, definitively, is not one of them.

You can't bully people into caring.

[ColdJ]

1 hour ago, Izny said:

But, if they have to keep answering calls all day, every day, with the question, even after they would shut it down to retaliate for being called (riiiiiiiight...), at some point they'll have to cave, reinstate the forums, and offer an apology.

What in the last year of silence and closing the studio without any consultation would make you think that that would happen?

"Hello large heartless company that thankfully at the moment is paying the bills to keep the forum running where I am posting how I hate them. I am going to call and harrass a poor receptionist who has no say on what happens to the forums, long enough for you to think, "why am I keeping alive a forum that is being used as a platform to facilitate trouble for my company"".

I know you are upset but so are we all. If you are dangling from a rope off a cliff, you don't throw rocks at the person who is holding the other end.

Seriously. Please think about every member that relies on the forum rather than promote actions that would end it.

There are people who actually care about everybody, not just focus on their own anger without thought of consequence.

 

Edited July 12 by ColdJ

[Iapetus7342]

2 hours ago, Izny said:

But, if they have to keep answering calls all day, every day, with the question, even after they would shut it down to retaliate for being called (riiiiiiiight...), at some point they'll have to cave, reinstate the forums, and offer an apology.

B̶̨̛̙͔̗̘̥̯̰̲͙̯̬̲̙͂̐̿̾̕͜ ̴̜̼̻̄̃̎̓͌̏͆͑͂̈̚͜O̵͎̣̞̱͉̽̽̿͋̀͊͐̆͌́̈̒̿͠͝ ̵̜̘͇͓̜̘̱̲̳̖̦̖̳̓͆̎̕I̶͍̱͗̍̏͝

 

You are talking about the poor sod who has to answer about 100+ calls about the forums and KSP by customers fueled with hatred. If you want to do the great thing you want, take up a complaint with the guy who runs the server room and keeps this forum alive, not customer support. Even then, the server operator may not listen, because it's the executives at Take Two that tell him what to do, not someone on the internet that he's never heard of. 

As ColdJ said above: "Please think about every member that relies on the forum rather than promote actions that would end it."

Thank you.

[Izny]

Yeah i think you all are right. If we ask nicely enough, they -must- reply. 

At some point. 

Maybe,

Has someone gotten any peep from T2 yet?

 

 

XD

 

[Zaffre]

Though we have no word, I think it'd be good to be proactive with positive messages asking T2 or making it clear that the forum is an invaluable resource for an otherwise betrayed community. Should the message(s) be gotten across, it's possible they could use that as an opportunity for PR that isn't terrible in the wake of KSP2's circus of flaming fish. Win-win.

Regarding what is essentially heckling the company, T2 is not Valve and I do not trust most of the KSP fanbase to not go too far or approach from an appropriate point of attack. Not that I possess any like or ambivalence for T2.

 

[Lonelykermit]

3 minutes ago, Zaffre said:

Though we have no word, I think it'd be good to be proactive with positive messages asking T2 or making it clear that the forum is an invaluable resource for an otherwise betrayed community. Should the message(s) be gotten across, it's possible they could use that as an opportunity for PR that isn't terrible in the wake of KSP2's circus of flaming fish. Win-win.

Regarding what is essentially heckling the company, T2 is not Valve and I do not trust most of the KSP fanbase to not go too far or approach from an appropriate point of attack. Not that I possess any like or ambivalence for T2.

 

That's exactly what I was thinking when I said that constantly bugging T2 would be a terrible idea. Although tbh T2 is on the same level as Valve in my opinion when it comes to actually listening to their fanbase.

[Jacke]

12 hours ago, Deddly said:

T2 have never said they will close the forums.

TTI hasn't admitted they've effectively shuttered their studios Intercept Games or Roll7 this year.  They shut down Bioshock 2 studio 2K Marin in 2013 and haven't admitted to that either.

If TTI decides to close these KSP forums, I would not be surprised if there is no notice given but the website just stops working.  AFAIK, there's no legal requirement for TTI to give notice to anyone.  TTI will make the decision internally one way or another, then inform their Servers and Networks staff to implement it.

 

12 hours ago, Deddly said:

We just haven't heard what their plans are and some of us are concerned as to what the future might be. If the forums close, that would be the time to call them, if that's what you want to do.  

Best not get ahead of ourselves

I agree.  But it's highly likely that any future change will not be announced or acknowledged before or at the time of change implementation.  What blowback-lacking reasonable preparatory moves that can be made ahead of time by those willing to invest resources to address speculative threats should be done.

 

Edited July 13 by Jacke

[Izny]

Less trying to come up with a strategy to reason with an untrustworthy company, less doomscenarios what they might do to the whole community if someone makes a call, more torches and pitchforks. Call your local newspaper for an article, call bigger networks, call your favourite youtuber to make an episode, ask jay2c to nail them to the cross like he did with asus etc, ask linus for an episode.

public opinion is what t2 cares about. hit them where it hurts. Before gta6 hype starts.

Less talk, more action!

[Sirius628]

On 7/7/2024 at 4:35 PM, damerell said:

While I wouldn't suggest relying on it alone, the Wayback Machine seems to have a largely complete archive of the forums - indeed, this 2-hour-old thread is in it. Of course, it's read-only, but someone looking to resurrect the forums could get almost all of them back from that.

Should we spearhead an effort to make sure every page on the forums is in the Wayback Machine? (especially the modding section, since some of the mods there may have no other download source?)

[Vexillar]

The entire forum has been crawled many times over the last couple of years. Should be good without any further intervention.

[caipi]

If they killed the forum to cut costs, that would be the worst, most short-sighted decision they ever made. They still have the IP and seemingly hope to sell it (as there are rumors they already tried to sell it but allegedly asked for too much).

Shutting down this forum would in my opinion kill the community and drastically decrease the value of the IP! As long as KSP 1 is alive and there is activity in these forums, new people will always have a reference. Old players might stick around or ocassionally come back. Who would care about the IP for KSP in 3-5 years if the KSP community was effectively disbanded by TTI? The realistic value would probably drop to 5-10% of what it is right now. Just my opinion though. They would loose more money if they shut down the forum by the loss of value than they would save from the reduced server costs.

[Fizzlebop Smith]

4 hours ago, caipi said:

If they killed the forum to cut costs, that would be the worst, most short-sighted decision they ever made. They still have the IP and seemingly hope to sell it (as there are rumors they already tried to sell it but allegedly asked for too much).

Shutting down this forum would in my opinion kill the community and drastically decrease the value of the IP! As long as KSP 1 is alive and there is activity in these forums, new people will always have a reference. Old players might stick around or ocassionally come back. Who would care about the IP for KSP in 3-5 years if the KSP community was effectively disbanded by TTI? The realistic value would probably drop to 5-10% of what it is right now. Just my opinion though. They would loose more money if they shut down the forum by the loss of value than they would save from the reduced server costs.

That is not always the case, shutting down the forum could be part of a  over-arching decision to devalue to IP before hand off.
I sincerely, hope this never to be the case, but there are a few scenarios where it would not be short sighted, We should seek to avoid instigating any of those which fall under community purview.

For instance... should those individuals who have been dedicated personal free time to moderate this medium... decide that they have grown tired of whatever, and walk away. This place would be unable to remove those personal attacks, and inflammatory responses. It could potentially devolve into a place toxicity and tarnish the image.
Two hundred or some odd people could call Take Two corporate office every day to complain to those without the power or where with all to care

My greatest fear is that someone involved with the development will be unable to sell the IP whether as a bundle or divested from the publisher.  Before a final buyer approaches the plate.. they have envisioned all the possible things a well-oiled development process could have achieved and decide it is in the best interest of the long-standing reputation to ensure no one can make a successful  KSP project. This could not be an overt action and would involve underhanded sabotage. 
Who knows what the hell some of the people in the corporate office think of this little corner of the genre. If they even care to think at all. Someone could have missed to side note that tried to quantify the value of this forum and wrote it off into column with building lease, and utilities.

Gawd I hope not, took a couple hours before the redirects stopped crapping out on me earlier. Maybe we should all write them a letter and thank them for keeping the forum running despite the circumstances, and reaffirming just how awesome it is.

[Lisias]

17 hours ago, Sirius628 said:

Should we spearhead an effort to make sure every page on the forums is in the Wayback Machine? (especially the modding section, since some of the mods there may have no other download source?)

Check this thread:

 

[damerell]

On 7/13/2024 at 7:57 AM, Izny said:

Less trying to come up with a strategy to reason with an untrustworthy company, less doomscenarios what they might do to the whole community if someone makes a call, more torches and pitchforks. Call your local newspaper for an article, call bigger networks, call your favourite youtuber to make an episode, ask jay2c to nail them to the cross like he did with asus etc, ask linus for an episode.

The original idea of an organised harassment campaign is a spectacularly bad one - as in, maybe we should confine ourselves to ideas that aren't _illegal_ - but this is just hopelessly optimistic.

Consider the tremendous efforts made to avert the _City of Heroes_ shutdown in 2012 and then to get the IP released - forget calling local newspapers (as if they even know or care what KSP is) and obscure youtubers, they had best-selling authors coming out of the woodwork to say "hi, I'm Mercedes Lackey, I play this game, and this is a terrible idea". These efforts achieved nothing whatsoever; the game shut down on schedule and when it came back in 2019 it was for unrelated reasons.

Edited July 14 by damerell

[LittleBitMore]

in the somewhat unlikely case the forums do shut down and the community's contingency plans fail: thank you to all who ventured here, and godspeed to all who venture farther

[Iapetus7342]

On 7/13/2024 at 7:57 AM, Izny said:

Less trying to come up with a strategy to reason with an untrustworthy company, less doomscenarios what they might do to the whole community if someone makes a call, more torches and pitchforks. Call your local newspaper for an article, call bigger networks, call your favourite youtuber to make an episode, ask jay2c to nail them to the cross like he did with asus etc, ask linus for an episode.

(Very audible sigh)

I'm writing this in the most respectful, blunt and informative way I can think of.

Izny, we are only going to put our community in more mortal danger if we go through with this. It's not customer service who works at the KSP forum server rooms and decides the fate of around 10-11 years of content, it's the experienced computer engineers at Take2 and the Take2 executives that run the servers. There is no need to beg for an article in a newspaper, a video on YouTube, or for a certain content creator to, as you kindly described, "Nail them to the cross", as begging usually ends in the beggar getting in more trouble. 

Here's a good example of something that proves my point. Back in 2012, as referenced above by damerell's comment, City of Heroes had a massive fan-backed campaign of a similar scale to your idea due to the game being shut down, with authors getting involved in the rescue attempts. Long story short, the game shut down anyway. This is the main problem with your idea of contacting everyone and their mother to help. Your efforts can only serve to advance or do nothing to a shutdown schedule. So please, think of everyone on these forums that you take for granted, and don't get it shut down. Thank you for reading this wall of text.

[Izny]

7 minutes ago, Iapetus7342 said:

(Very audible sigh)

I'm writing this in the most respectful, blunt and informative way I can think of.

Izny, we are only going to put our community in more mortal danger if we go through with this. It's not customer service who works at the KSP forum server rooms and decides the fate of around 10-11 years of content, it's the experienced computer engineers at Take2 and the Take2 executives that run the servers. There is no need to beg for an article in a newspaper, a video on YouTube, or for a certain content creator to, as you kindly described, "Nail them to the cross", as begging usually ends in the beggar getting in more trouble. 

Here's a good example of something that proves my point. Back in 2012, as referenced above by damerell's comment, City of Heroes had a massive fan-backed campaign of a similar scale to your idea due to the game being shut down, with authors getting involved in the rescue attempts. Long story short, the game shut down anyway. This is the main problem with your idea of contacting everyone and their mother to help. Your efforts can only serve to advance or do nothing to a shutdown schedule. So please, think of everyone on these forums that you take for granted, and don't get it shut down. Thank you for reading this wall of text.

yes, you convinced me. ima call them start of business tomorrow

 

 

[kerbiloid]

On 7/13/2024 at 9:57 AM, Izny said:

Less trying to come up with a strategy to reason with an untrustworthy company, less doomscenarios what they might do to the whole community if someone makes a call, more torches and pitchforks. Call your local newspaper for an article, call bigger networks, call your favourite youtuber to make an episode, ask jay2c to nail them to the cross like he did with asus etc, ask linus for an episode.

public opinion is what t2 cares about. hit them where it hurts. Before gta6 hype starts.

T2:

Spoiler

 

[Iapetus7342]

19 hours ago, Izny said:

yes, you convinced me. ima call them start of business tomorrow

 

 

...oh dear.

well, guess i'll go hoard all my mods while i still can.