Kerbonauts, we want to hear from you!

[rmaine]

18 hours ago, JorgeCS said:

I thought I was the only picky one. I did read, thus I didn't submit the survey. 

Now I finished reading all the posts. Although @Dman979 did a great job (out of his scope, we know  ) explaining it, in some cases it seems that what bothered us is not the fact itself about having the T&C, but the 'rudeness' so to say, the difference between our day by day here with the community and 'that' (where is a pukeing emoji when you need it?)

Meh, enjoy. One more like that, one less KSP2 that BigCompany will sell.

I also read and didn't submit it. Regardless of their lawyers wanting excuses for employment, I seldom click "agree" on overly long legalese like that. If I were serious about agreement, I'd want to spend significant time pondering it's exact implications instead of just skimming for "well, it's probably getting at something like..." If I'm not serious about it, well, there needs to be more motivation for me to overcome the aversion of "agreeing" to something without being sure I really understand it. The thing I find most annoying (and I forget whether this one had such a clause or not) is the common item saying that I promise I have read and understood all this. I figure the lawyers that write crap like that ought to be found guilty of knowingly encouraging fraud of some sort because they darn well know that almost everyone who agrees to that will be lying. If there's a spot for comments, I occasionally add one to that effect and explicitly say that, contrary to the check box, I did not in fact read or agree to the whole thing. Never yet had any pushback from my addition of such a disclaimer.

Reminds me of pay time sheets at NASA from back before I retired (and when the time sheets were actual sheets of paper). We were supposed to put down what project or other bean-counter code we had worked on down to something like tenths of an hour. Sort of silly in the first place (and extra so because some mandatory stuff didn't have codes so we were supposed to just put it down as whatever we most otherwise worked on). We were then supposed to sign this statement promising that it was all true. But the system's processing of time sheets was slow enough that they were required to be turned in a few days before the end of the time period were were testifying about. Oral explanation was that if something else ended up happening, we were supposed to adjust it later by a balancing lie on the next pay period. Of course, that's not what the legalese actually said. I took to hand inserting the word "planned" above the pre-printed legalese. That made it at least plausibly honest (well, except that I didn't track what I worked on that precisely anyway - but at least the hours of leave were honest). First time I turned in a sheet like that, I expected it to get bounced back to me. Nope; nobody seemed to actually care. As long as there was a signature, they were happy, even if I was signing to some quite different statement.

[Bej Kerman]

On 7/6/2021 at 5:00 PM, KSPStar said:

Whether you're a Kerbonaut who's only been playing for a few weeks or for an entire decade, we want to hear from you!

Please complete this short KSP survey. ► https://bit.ly/kspsurvey1f

Not sure why you needed to know if I had underage children and why you needed to know some things completely unrelated to KSP, but aight

[StarSlay3r]

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

Not sure why you needed to know if I had underage children and why you needed to know some things completely unrelated to KSP, but aight

We ask about whether those taking the survey have children under the age of 18 only to then ask a follow up question of those who do "Do you play Kerbal Space Program with your children?". This is so that we do not subjugate everyone to answer a question that is unrelated or that they can't answer.

Rather than have every possible option in one question, some questions throughout the survey act as a means to send respondents on a different route that is applicable to the response they've given.

Hope this helps to provide some insight! 

[Noah Foloni]

Done!

[Bej Kerman]

2 hours ago, KSPStar said:

We ask about whether those taking the survey have children under the age of 18 only to then ask a follow up question of those who do "Do you play Kerbal Space Program with your children?". This is so that we do not subjugate everyone to answer a question that is unrelated or that they can't answer.

Rather than have every possible option in one question, some questions throughout the survey act as a means to send respondents on a different route that is applicable to the response they've given.

Hope this helps to provide some insight! 

Mhm, still sounds completely irrelevant lol. I just replied to all the second half questions with silly answers.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Bej Kerman

[Guest]

I don't think you guys have to be concerned with the terms and conditions. It's all the basic legal rules that @Dman979 explain. It's basically to prevent the company to run into trouble.

[Kerbart]

On 7/8/2021 at 12:22 AM, Greenfire32 said:

1) Why does a survey need terms and conditions?
2) Why can't you explain in plain English what I'm agreeing to, rather than hide whatever the hell behind a wall of legalese?
3) I'm not agreeing to any kind of legally binding anything for something as small as a simple survey. That's insane. You want to survey your customers, survey them. Don't subject them to a bunch of legal crap.

 

1) As a company, the deeper your pockets, the greater the chances are that you're getting a lawsuit from a Greedy Lawyer

2) Explain the Vis Viva equation to me in plain English. Don't use math terms because your audience doesn't like them. But make sure we're getting the same results. 'Legalize" is exactly the same — it's formula's for court rooms. It's consice, unambiguous and if you're trained for reading it, very clear.

3) I doubt they want to start their survey with, but... see point 1.

 

I am not a lawyer but the T&C basically state that:

• If you say "KSP is a great game," in the survey, T2 will not get sued for copyright infringement when quoting "users stated 'KSP is a great gane' in a recent survey"
• Suing T2 for false advertising as they quote survey results, and you know that your entire classroom full of kids was forced by you to enter the survey, so you have proof of the survey's invalidity
• You entered the comment "I play KSP at home when my employer thinks I'm working from home" and now you got fired over it. Clearly T2 informed your boss. Well, instead of having to proof they didn't (it's always hard to proof you did not do something) they can just point to that section in the T&A.

Yes, each of these things sound absolutely outrageous but if you can get a $50,000 settlement instead of continuing litigation and basically earn money by doing nothing... there's a lot of greedy lawyers out there. That's why they do this.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Kerbart

[ColdJ]

@Kerbart If you are going to do a write up, please actually understand the definitions and concepts you use.

4 hours ago, Kerbart said:

If you say "KSP is a great game," in the survey, T2 will not get sued for copyright infringement when quoting "users stated 'KSP is a great gane' in a recent survey"

That has nothing to do with Copyright infringement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement

In what possible way does the orbital-energy-invariance law have to do with what was being commented on?

You couldn't sue them for false advertising. If even 1 person in the survey said "It is a great game", then that is all that is required for it to be considered legally accurate.

You couldn't force a classroom of under 18 year old kids to do the survey in the first place without being in serious, job losing trouble.

The playing comment would be thrown out of court, if the situation ever got so juvenile that it reached court in the first place.

All of which is meaningless, because if all they were doing was asking if you enjoyed playing, then they wouldn't need the preface to begin with.

You can't have a lawsuit over a simply survey because you are not taking something that is not yours and profiting from it.

You can be sued if you take an idea, invention, or software/programming that is not yours and profit from it without making sure the originator is properly compensated. Hence the self serving "anything you give us becomes ours and you no longer have any rights to it" wall of Legalese.

This a free forum and ideas are freely expressed for all to see all over the place, great mods are given freely to the world with no one asking to be paid.

That is why the preface in front of what should be a simple survey is so insulting, both on a moral and intellectual level.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

@Kerbart If you are going to do a write up, please actually understand the definitions and concepts you use.

That has nothing to do with Copyright infringement. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement

In what possible way does the orbital-energy-invariance law have to do with what was being commented on?

You couldn't sue them for false advertising. If even 1 person in the survey said "It is a great game", then that is all that is required for it to be considered legally accurate.

You couldn't force a classroom of under 18 year old kids to do the survey in the first place without being in serious, job losing trouble.

The playing comment would be thrown out of court, if the situation ever got so juvenile that it reached court in the first place.

All of which is meaningless, because if all they were doing was asking if you enjoyed playing, then they wouldn't need the preface to begin with.

You can't have a lawsuit over a simply survey because you are not taking something that is not yours and profiting from it.

You can be sued if you take an idea, invention, or software/programming that is not yours and profit from it without making sure the originator is properly compensated. Hence the self serving "anything you give us becomes ours and you no longer have any rights to it" wall of Legalese.

This a free forum and ideas are freely expressed for all to see all over the place, great mods are given freely to the world with no one asking to be paid.

That is why the preface in front of what should be a simple survey is so insulting, both on a moral and intellectual level.

I think what Kerbart was trying to say is that any big company is trying to avoid any possible lawyers exploiting and getting a quick buck. And that some of the examples he used are to explain it and not intended to be realistic 

[ColdJ]

@The Doodling Astronaut Still a simple concept. Simple survey needs no protection. A grab for ideas that you don't want to compensate the originator for does.

[Azimech]

I'm here, just checking every once in a while. Not active with the game atm. Waiting for KSP2.

[kerbiloid]

18 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Not sure why you needed to know if I had underage children

They detract from KSP.

So, cats and dogs should be listed, too.

"Do you have underage children. pet animals, or any other KSP detractors?"

Edited July 10, 2021 by kerbiloid

[TBenz]

On 7/9/2021 at 6:38 PM, ColdJ said:

Simple survey needs no protection.

I know who not to ask for legal advise.

ALWAYS CYA.

 

[dprostock]

Want to hear from me? Why? Did they correct all the flaws in the KSP? 

[Xavier513]

"What country do you live in?"

No China?

[ColdJ]

On 7/11/2021 at 5:41 PM, TBenz said:

I know who not to ask for legal advise.

ALWAYS CYA.

 

As I am not a lawyer, that is sensible. Wasn't talking legal technicalities, just common sense. You should always get legal ADVICE from someone who profits from getting it right.

[pandaman]

Now imagine yourself in T2's shoes..

You have a game about...  (I dunno, growing potatoes).  You ask your forum members for ideas they may like to see included, either by a questionaire like this, or an informal 'suggestions' forum.

You decide that some of these ideas are cool and implement them.  Then, those that suggested them try to sue you for using 'their' ideas without the relevant permissions.

If you had a disclaimer, that states that you have the right to use those suggestions without any legal requirement to acknowledge or compensate those who suggested them, then everyone knows where they stand, and you minimise the risk of costly legal actions.

That absolutely doesn't prevent you from saying 'this cool feature was suggested by Pandaman' or even paying me, or sending me a free plushy or something for it if you want to *hint *...  but it does make it clear to me that I have no automatic right to recognition or compensation when I suggest things or request certain features.

 

[Dientus]

53 minutes ago, pandaman said:

That absolutely doesn't prevent you from saying 'this cool feature was suggested by Pandaman' or even paying me, or sending me a free plushy or something for it if you want to *hint *...  but it does make it clear to me that I have no automatic right to recognition or compensation when I suggest things or request certain features.

Don't forget Dientus! If one of his lame cool ideas got used, a free Jeb plushie would be most welcomed! 

[Dman979]

3 hours ago, pandaman said:

plushy

2 hours ago, Dientus said:

plushie

 

Two enter. Only one can win. Fight!

(Don't actually fight )

[Dientus]

34 minutes ago, Dman979 said:

Two enter. Only one can win. Fight!

(Don't actually fight )

Out of likes again, you guys are just gonna have to quit doing so many things I like, thats all there is to it.

Anyway to get that added to the T&C of the forums?

[Guest]

On 7/10/2021 at 3:38 AM, ColdJ said:

@The Doodling Astronaut Still a simple concept. Simple survey needs no protection. A grab for ideas that you don't want to compensate the originator for does.

The simplest and fastest way to turn the "what would you like to see added to the game?" question into a "what would you like to forbid us to add because it would be stealing your idea and you could sue us" one.

This whole "you don't need protection if you have nothing to hide" is one of the most dumb and damaging fallacies of this whole century.

[ColdJ]

20 minutes ago, Master39 said:

The simplest and fastest way to turn the "what would you like to see added to the game?" question into a "what would you like to forbid us to add because it would be stealing your idea and you could sue us" one.

This whole "you don't need protection if you have nothing to hide" is one of the most dumb and damaging fallacies of this whole century.

This forum has thousands of posts of freely given ideas, with no caveats saying, this my idea, you can't have it. It has hundreds of mods freely given, and apart from some 3d modeling work having "All rights reserved" because the artist worked hard and long on getting them right, Most licences say, feel free to use this work how you please. Dock Rotate existed before the new docking ports with the ability to rotate, turned up. Unless there has been some quiet deal that we don't know about, I don't see anybody suing. Kerbal Konstructs existed before the new choose which launch site feature and the code has been shown to be using the same pathways. Same deal. 99% of forum members would be happy just to have the company acknowledge who they got the idea from. When you proclaim that honest people need protection from Litigation, you are saying that you have been brought up in a society where the average person will sue over the slightest thing. If that is the case then you might want to stand back and assess the society you live in. I am sorry if the world you live in has ingrained that mind set. A true fallacy is that "everybody can get rich by suing others". Original KSP is so good now because of all the outside input it has embraced over the years without turning it into some sort of Lawyer run business. When you play Devils Advocate for a large companies use of Legalese, all you do is make people think that there must be something in it for you. I was happy to have previously had my say and moved on. If you don't want rejoinders from me then simply don't quote me.

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

This forum has thousands of posts of freely given ideas, with no caveats saying, this my idea, you can't have it. It has hundreds of mods freely given, and apart from some 3d modeling work having "All rights reserved" because the artist worked hard and long on getting them right, Most licences say, feel free to use this work how you please.

I'm pretty sure the forum has its own wall of legalese you accepted when you created your account.

 

36 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

Dock Rotate existed before the new docking ports with the ability to rotate, turned up. Unless there has been some quiet deal that we don't know about, I don't see anybody suing. Kerbal Konstructs existed before the new choose which launch site feature and the code has been shown to be using the same pathways. Same deal. 99% of forum members would be happy just to have the company acknowledge who they got the idea from.

A lot of very obvious features existed in mod form before they were implemented into a game, the only way of not adding something that's already a mod it's not adding anything.

And that's sometimes where a lot of the anti-mod practices comes from.

 

39 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

When you proclaim that honest people need protection from Litigation, you are saying that you have been brought up in a society where the average person will sue over the slightest thing. If that is the case then you might want to stand back and assess the society you live in. I am sorry if the world you live in has ingrained that mind set.

Every time you say that honest people don't need protection you're actively endangering them by shaming them out of said protection.

And that's true in multiple scenarios, that protection being legal, privacy related or self defense related the argument doesn't change.

43 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

A true fallacy is that "everybody can get rich by suing others".

Never said or implied so.

 

46 minutes ago, ColdJ said:

When you play Devils Advocate for a large companies use of Legalese, all you do is make people think that there must be something in it for you.

Yep, totally, I'm writing from an Hawaiian Island I bought with money I got by selling ideas I've stolen from fake surveys and I covered my tracks with an overly complex legalese T&C.

I think you dropped you tinfoil hat.

[Lisias]

56 minutes ago, Master39 said:

I'm pretty sure the forum has its own wall of legalese you accepted when you created your account.

That may or may not be enforceable, depending of the country the guy is (exactly as the software licenses, by the way).

Did you ever checked what would happen if you try to get permissions to track data from kids under 13?

 

1 hour ago, ColdJ said:

When you proclaim that honest people need protection from Litigation, you are saying that you have been brought up in a society where the average person will sue over the slightest thing. 

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. There's the P/R factor. Being involved on a lawsuit even when you are right and can prove you didn't did anything wrong still hurts your reputation, and reputation is something expensive to fix.

 

1 hour ago, ColdJ said:

If that is the case then you might want to stand back and assess the society you live in. 

I agree. Unfortunately, things takes a lot of time to get fixed - and we still need to keep our lives going on in the mean time. So some compromise is needed.

 

1 hour ago, ColdJ said:

 I am sorry if the world you live in has ingrained that mind set. A true fallacy is that "everybody can get rich by suing others". 

Me too. And exactly by that I understand his motivations, besides not agreeing with them. You can be "wrong" and still have good reasons to be "wrong" - sometimes, all we can do is to try hard to be the less wrong possible given circumstances we have no choice but to cope with.

 

1 hour ago, ColdJ said:

Original KSP is so good now because of all the outside input it has embraced over the years without turning it into some sort of Lawyer run business.

Not exactly.  KSP is great because, besides some disagreements that could theoretically ended up in a Court of Law, the absolute majority of people here puts the game above their personal feelings, and almost every time we settled up on doing what's right in a way or another.

What makes everything here be so great is not the absence of problems, but the willing to fix them how we can and do better next time.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Lisias
kinda of typo...

[cfds]

The ratio of "stuff regarding KSP" to "topics take2 wants to send you newsletters about" is depressingly low in this "survey".

At least I could always answer "-" in these questions, and, after a long fight, "Other" for country...