Release Date Update from the KSP2 Team

[RayneCloud]

2 hours ago, Atlessa said:

 

I can't see it.

Tried with Opera and Firefox.

 

What's going on?

Here it is,

Games Industry Professional (She/Her)
Former Community Manager - Kerbal Space Program (2011 - 2013)
Former CM - Legends of Aethereus , Heliborne, Grumpy Witch
Former US Navy Medical Professional - Disabled Veteran, Honorable

 

Now that that is out of the way, all of my points still stand. The level of down right abuse I see here, coupled with the level of confidence displayed by those who've not worked a single day in this industry bothers me a great deal. This team is talented, dedicated, and passionate. I believe in them, and game development is HARD. I would beg you all to have some patience. Wait till the final product is in your hands and then make your critiques, but do so without the downright abusive tone. Please?

Edited May 22, 2022 by RayneCloud
Spelling.

[PDCWolf]

[snip]

Criticism is not abuse, and criticizing the visible outcomes of the development/marketing processes is not criticizing the final product, specially since it's now been well established that there's at least justification for the concerns presented. Also working as a community manager is not something I would qualify as working "on software", if anything your job seems closer to my field than development, heck if we're playing the credentials game I'd gladly fly my modder banner as well, but contrary to what you imply, I do know the differences.

Edited May 22, 2022 by Vanamonde

[Lisias]

In My Humble Opinion, a WAY better way to counter act criticisms was done by… Boeing!

A Jebediah plush was sent to space on the Starliner. EXCELLENT P/R stunt, I say. This is an argument I can see value on a discussion like this one we are getting around here.

As we say around here in Brazil, "Águas passadas não movem moinhos" (water under the bridge do not move mills). What you are doing today is what matters.

https://www.engadget.com/boeing-starliner-kerbal-space-program-jeb-212326380.html

 

19 hours ago, t_v said:

And then continues by talking about the lack of information in PR. These arguments need to be addressed as distinct things to avoid miscommunication and strife. 

I think that at least the P/R issue was addressed beautifully.   (I loved this one - I was expecting something like this, to tell you the true)

[snip]

Cheers.

Spoiler

POST EDIT:

As I said in the past, KSP got the attention of a lot of interesting people in the past from the most different industries. It's dangerous to play the "I'm a professional in this field and you don't" card nowadays.  

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Vanamonde
POST EDIT

[Pthigrivi]

Edit: Ive retracted this post in the name of mutual civility. I think we can all be more patient with each other, even me. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Pthigrivi

[PDCWolf]

15 hours ago, Lisias said:

In My Humble Opinion, a WAY better way to counter act criticisms was done by… Boeing!

A Jebediah plush was sent to space on the Starliner. EXCELLENT P/R stunt, I say. This is an argument I can see value on a discussion like this one we are getting around here.

As we say around here in Brazil, "Águas passadas não movem moinhos" (water under the bridge do not move mills). What you are doing today is what matters.

https://www.engadget.com/boeing-starliner-kerbal-space-program-jeb-212326380.html

Cheers.

Yeah, I saw this live and loved it, though that article only makes marginal mentions of the game, other articles make a better job of explaining to the common person: 

https://www.space.com/boeing-starliner-oft2-kerbal-jeb-zerog-indicator

I had problems finding more articles about this to be honest, only found the one you linked and this one...

Edit: As I find more information... neither T2 nor PD were involved in this, just a crew member doing a very lucky selection.

[snip]

 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Vanamonde

[Lisias]

37 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Edit: As I find more information... neither T2 nor PD were involved in this, just a crew member doing a very lucky selection.

So it was organic and expontaneous?

I'm impressed!

[Vanamonde]

Thread re-opened but a number of excessively personal comments have been removed. Please back off of the accusatorial tone and keep in mind that nobody enjoys a forum that is just people yelling angrily at each other. Also, stay on-topic, please. 

[obnox twin]

I agree with Vanamonde lets just stay on topic and try not to yell angrily at each other. We are all mad but it is just a clarification to when it will release/its good news as it will be more polished. Lets just not yell at each other.

[jost]

19 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

[snip]

Also working as a community manager is not something I would qualify as working "on software", if anything your job seems closer to my field than development, heck if we're playing the credentials game I'd gladly fly my modder banner as well, but contrary to what you imply, I do know the differences.

Well a community manager needs to communicate not just with the community but the developers/project managers etc as well. So I would assume, that any (former or now) community manager actually has a lot more insight how software development works than some  guy/girl in a forum thread. 

I myself didn't worked as community manager or software developer in video games ever. But I was part of a team responsible for the infrastructure in a large software project for a car manafacturer.  We had a lot more developers than the KSP2 team, non the less a lot of features were removed (after approval from our customer) and datelines shifted because it turned out, that things are not so easy as they seemed. 
Were our customer happy about it? No. Were our managment happy? No (since we would only get payed by the customer after the released of the product aka the first cars were deployed with our baby on it).  Did we manage to finally finish the project and deliver a working software to the customer? Yes, we did. Any in later releases the removed features were to be added via updates (At least this was the idea when I left. I left before Covid though so I don't know how the pandemic situation made things worse. I would at least accept some problems since part of our infrastructure relied on a local network for performance. However: Since I know the abilities of my former coworkers I assume that they managed  to deliver the planned additional features, propably with pandemic induces delays.)  
We didn't had to argue with angry gamers though, which was propably a big advantage. Angry customers and their project managers are worse enough

So sorry to disagree with you: Due to my own experiences (although with different software than games)  I think the arguments of RayneCloud are actually more convincing than your complaints about some conspiracy. 

[PDCWolf]

5 hours ago, jost said:

Well a community manager needs to communicate not just with the community but the developers/project managers etc as well. So I would assume, that any (former or now) community manager actually has a lot more insight how software development works than some  guy/girl in a forum thread. 

I myself didn't worked as community manager or software developer in video games ever. But I was part of a team responsible for the infrastructure in a large software project for a car manafacturer.  We had a lot more developers than the KSP2 team, non the less a lot of features were removed (after approval from our customer) and datelines shifted because it turned out, that things are not so easy as they seemed. 
Were our customer happy about it? No. Were our managment happy? No (since we would only get payed by the customer after the released of the product aka the first cars were deployed with our baby on it).  Did we manage to finally finish the project and deliver a working software to the customer? Yes, we did. Any in later releases the removed features were to be added via updates (At least this was the idea when I left. I left before Covid though so I don't know how the pandemic situation made things worse. I would at least accept some problems since part of our infrastructure relied on a local network for performance. However: Since I know the abilities of my former coworkers I assume that they managed  to deliver the planned additional features, propably with pandemic induces delays.)  
We didn't had to argue with angry gamers though, which was propably a big advantage. Angry customers and their project managers are worse enough

So sorry to disagree with you: Due to my own experiences (although with different software than games)  I think the arguments of RayneCloud are actually more convincing than your complaints about some conspiracy. 

[snip] I don't know how to disagree any harder with the idea that I'm criticizing a yet non existent final product, or calling the developers inept or incapable or whatever words a lot of people insist on putting in my mouth. Here's my list of concerns.  You'll easily understand that I do not mind so much the deadlines themselves being missed, but rather the lack of general communication, including the lack of provided reasons for the delays, along with the rest of the concerns.

[snip] I'll probably have to repeat myself even more as people quote me to respond to a single nitpick instead of the whole argument: I do not believe the devs are inept or incompetent, I do not believe there's a conspiracy, I firmly believe they've left a lot of unclear stuff hanging around. It's not weird that people believing and hoping are ok with waiting in silence and people who like to see stuff with their eyes are not. I like tangible, shareable and analizable evidence [snip] plus once you add that list of concerns I have, it should at least be understandable for me to be... concerned, and wanting answers.

Lastly, since somehow I also need to spell this out: I'm not demanding answers, they can chose to completely ignore me, other posters that agree, and controversies raised on their socials, discord and the subreddit. They have complete freedom to do that. I'll just rest easy knowing there's evidence of complaints existing somewhere. This however does not make me a megalomaniac, misanthropic, problem customer, emotionally unstable, attention hungry, a troll, or whatever else has been implied along this thread.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Starhawk
Redacted by moderator

[Lisias]

4 hours ago, jost said:

Well a community manager needs to communicate not just with the community but the developers/project managers etc as well. So I would assume, that any (former or now) community manager actually has a lot more insight how software development works than some  guy/girl in a forum thread. 

Well… I came from the car industry too (after jumping ship from the Mobile). And I know something for sure - anyone on the* team being caught mistreating a potential customer the way I saw happening on this thread would have some serious problems on his/her employability.

You just can't point your finger into your customer's nose yelling "I'm a professional on this field and you are not" and expect to keep their money - even when you are right, what's (frankly) not too common: the customers know their problems better than you, they have problems on communicating them to you.

Boeing is giving us a hell of a lesson about how to cope with criticism. I suggest we listen to these guys, they are the real deal.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Lisias
*I was part of the team, it was not my team. Fixing.

[Gargamel]

More off topic posts have been removed.  
If you want want to talk about the KSP plushie, you can go here.    Do not repost material that has already been removed. 
 

 

 

[TheOrbitalMechanic]

[snip]

Maybe because it's still almost a year out from release? I guarantee you, if they knew from the beginning that they weren't going to be releasing until 2023, they wouldn't have even announced that the game exists yet.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Vanamonde

[Vanamonde]

We're running out of ways to say this, guys: don't make it personal. Please talk about the subject and don't try to characterize each other's personalities. More comments removed. 

This thread needs a time out and will remain closed for a bit while tempers cool. 

[Vanamonde]

Thread re-opened in the hope that people have calmed down. Please remain polite and don't make it personal. 

[obnox twin]

I agree with Vanamonde don't make it personal lets start off with good things that can come out of this delay

[pandaman]

For me - " It is what it is " .

Assuming FY 2023 doesn't change, and given the 'Early next year' announcement the indications are that it hasn't, the slight extra delay makes it end of March at the latest.   No absolute guarantees it can't/won't move again, but that would be true even if they announced a specific date  That's life , and it's just a game on which none of us have spent anything on yet (and no, KSP1 doesn't count) .

I would much rather a 'Whoops, something cropped up last minute, give us a bit longer' than pushing it out to meet a hard deadline and it not being fit for purpose.   Yes it's frustrating, especially if it keeps happening, but so what.  Anyone with any sense can see that they dont plan on cancelling at this stage, far too much time and, more importantly, money has been invested by T2 for them to cut and run now.  

 

But anyway, here's a 'Conspiracy Theory' - to satisfy those of you so inclinded...

@Nate Simpson is acually a multi-millonnaire prankster,  He set the whole thing up from day one to wind us all up for a few giggles, and there never was a KSP2,

He realised Squad were at the limit of what they were capable of, so bought the KSP franchise and let KSP1 run it's natural course, whilst maintaining the impression that '2' was under developnent.  All the 'staff' are just game dev and drama students  eager for experience and a paycheck.  All the presentations and intetractions with Youtubers etc are  just carefully staged to look convincing.   Come December he will announce a further delay to 'End if 2023' and the cycle continues...

[Vl3d]

48 minutes ago, pandaman said:

He set the whole thing up from day one to wind us all up for a few giggles, and there never was a ...

... Matrix 4

Edited May 27, 2022 by Vl3d

[The Aziz]

Well, my long post isn't there because I was writing it the moment this thread was locked - in short, no matter the industry, people often can't predict the future. I can't tell when I arrive (delivery man yay) when my clients ask until I'm within an hour of arriving, before that I can only tell a very vague answer (morning/afternoon). Because unforeseen can, and often will, happen. In software it's unexpected bugs, incompatibilities within the code, or simply finding a way around engine limitations, in car industry, especially recently, it's the availability of parts, for me, it's the traffic, more often than I'd like to.

The release window is now much narrower than ever, given all we know (the video and FY end date).

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[Lisias]

On 5/27/2022 at 8:35 AM, pandaman said:

That's life , and it's just a game on which none of us have spent anything on yet

It's not "just a game". It's a cultural phenomena.

Additionally, it's the source of incoming for a lot of people, there're people feeding their families with the incoming from this product. There're investors betting big money on it - lots and lots of people that are expecting to make a living with this "just a game".

Things will get a lot better when the "it's just a game" downplaying ceases and people start to realize that this is a real product, with a big budget and a lot of money invested on it. Just like Starliner, by the way (save the budget, of course! ).

[The Aziz]

The franchise is a cultural phenomenon. Not a sequel that's still not here. People are not feeding their families with income from this product, but income from development of it. Speaking of betting, I could bet that my dog will win next year's pet show wherever. Thing is, I don't have a dog. The dog is certainly alive, somewhere in the world, so I could find it and prepare for the show, but it's not mine, why would I bet for it? Nobody personally spent (or should've spent) a single penny on it, wages have been paid, if there's a loss it's within company budget, not someone's pocket.

Yes, KSP2 is part of a bigger thing, yes some may have already invested money on it, although it's still under [a company name] but at the end of the day what you will launch on steam/console is only a game.

[pandaman]

@Lisias .  Whilst I understand the sentiment, what @The Aziz  said above is correct IMHO.

For us, yes, KSP as a whole is more than 'just a game', and for many it is a standalone 'hobby' in it's own right.   

However, KSP2 is currently just an unreleased product like any other (that is presumably in the final stages of development).  In that regard it is no different to the next new car model from Ford, or golf clubs from Callaway, and we are simply prospective customers.  Many are excited to see what these products will be like, but other than disappointment, if they don't appear at all, or fail to meet one's expectations it makes no real difference to us, life goes on, we lose nothing of any material value. 

Also the staff working on them have been and are being paid already for the work they are doing, it's their job.   On that product's release, depending on it's nature (and it's success), they will either work to continually improve or maintain that specific  product or move on to other new projects.   The financial 'risk' is very much that of the company in question, they have invested the funds to pay the staff and resources to develop the product, in anticipation of making a future profit.

[stephensmat]

Some games are just fun amusements, some games are part of the culture because everyone knows them...

Some games influence people. I've read at least a dozen posts from people who say: "I got interested because of KSP, and I just started my internship at NASA/SpaceX/Blue Origin." To say nothing of Instagram showing Jeb toys going to space.

Plenty of soccer stars started out playing in their backyard; but it's not the same with computer games.

I bought KSP years ago, but I only got serious about playing it a few months ago, and now I'm on this board every day. The learning curve and the complexity weeds out a lot of casual players. And it looks like KSP2 has revamped the tutorials for that reason; so we may be having a huge influx of people this time next year.

Which means ten years from now, instead of a dozen posts bragging about working in spaceflight, there'll be hundreds. The Kerbal Effect, 2.0.

There aren't many computer games that do that.

[Lisias]

9 hours ago, pandaman said:

@Lisias .  Whilst I understand the sentiment, what @The Aziz  said above is correct IMHO.

These are not mutually exclusive choices! I can be right without necessarily meaning he's wrong - and vice versa!

 

9 hours ago, pandaman said:

However, KSP2 is currently just an unreleased product like any other (that is presumably in the final stages of development).  In that regard it is no different to the next new car model from Ford, or golf clubs from Callaway, and we are simply prospective customers.  

It's a follow up, being advertising as a follow up and intrinsically tied to it. There would be no KSP2 without KSP1 - for the best and for the worst.

 

9 hours ago, pandaman said:

Many are excited to see what these products will be like, but other than disappointment, if they don't appear at all, or fail to meet one's expectations it makes no real difference to us, life goes on, we lose nothing of any material value. 

But someone will lose. People working on it will be reallocated or perhaps fired. Investors will pretty angry by losing the money invested. Carers may be tainted. And so goes on.

KSP (being 1 or 2) got a lot of visibility on the STEM world - lots of people telling us that they choose STEM because KSP. Some of them on Boeing, do you wanna bet?

 

8 hours ago, stephensmat said:

There aren't many computer games that do that.

Exactly my point - these things are rare, it's very difficult to get this kind of traction on any industry. You can't assume you will manage to do the trick again on your next franchise (ask John Romero about Daikatana).

And, as always in life, things can be a bless and also a curse. You screw it up, lots of people will be less than pleasant with you (as the investors I talked about previously).

Edited May 29, 2022 by Lisias
Of cuorse… Tyops! (Surprised?)