Mohopeful

[Alexoff]

22 minutes ago, TwoCalories said:

Nate Simpson even said at some point that they had a whole suite of ships that didn't include parts that weren't revealed.

Nate is a big talker, especially talking about the game before release.

24 minutes ago, TwoCalories said:

Once they iron out the last bugs

Well, that is never

25 minutes ago, TwoCalories said:

rather than a little snippet of gameplay

It is much better to show the model of grid fin in the editor

[MechBFP]

12 minutes ago, Nicrose said:

That’s a minimization if I’ve ever seen one lol that’s like saying I’m the only person experiencing a horrible gaming experience 

You definitely are not understanding what the original person you replied to was saying if that is your response to me. 

[TwoCalories]

8 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

Nate is a big talker, especially talking about the game before release.

Well, that is never

It is much better to show the model of grid fin in the editor

 

36 minutes ago, TwoCalories said:

I think for now, we can kind of enjoy the little things about KSP2, like the launch countdown, and Dres' rings.

Edited May 20, 2023 by TwoCalories

[Nicrose]

Before I go I do think I should shed some light on a topic. I work in the games industry as an animator/programmer and we have always had priority lists. Things that should be worked on and/or finished and things that are low priority. Some things (like multiplayer) will need to be worked on in parallel to make sure all added features are compatible . Bugs (usually and should always) be the highest priority. And seeing various different items (like grid fins) being prioritized over other things (science, engines, etc) is just an odd choice to highlight while the entire community is struggling to even play the “game” while there aren’t even gameplay loops or goals. Ultimately from my experience in the game industry, this is what a studio I worked for looked like and they went under hard and fast. I also can’t confidently say but it seems like they allow their staff to work on whatever they feel like without any regard for what is priority and what is just something you can add to the game to satisfy people while you try to figure out the bugs. Anyways, this will for sure be my last message, just thought of this on my drive home and thought it might be important to share since a lot of people assume that everyone in here has never made an indie video game in their life and that everyone is just whining which I think is also unproductive. If a majority of your player base is “whining” then the problem isn’t with the community, just saying. 

Edited May 20, 2023 by Nicrose

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

26 minutes ago, Nicrose said:

Convenient misquote

 

38 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

- that said, I don't disagree that Nate's post was crafted in a way to almost guarantee annoying people. 

They really need to talk to a Crisis Communication consultant.  Comm strategy since release has been really poorly done. 

That's my point.  

You are expecting to hear progress made on fixing the product as shipped.  They want to dangle new shineys.

[MechBFP]

15 minutes ago, Nicrose said:

If a majority of your player base is “whining” then the problem isn’t with the community, just saying. 

That is true, however their community doesn’t consist of 100 people, so you have got a ways to go before you get to a majority. 

Edited May 20, 2023 by MechBFP

[Scarecrow71]

47 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

No, it doesn’t. Imagine shutting down an entire car factory because 1 car is held up by some issue.  Lol. 

But it isn't one car.  Its nearly every driver complaining of the same issue with every car.  At this point it isn't shutting down the factory for one car, but rather halting production to make sure no more faulty cars get made.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Scarecrow71

[Razor235]

23 minutes ago, Nicrose said:

since a lot of people assume that everyone in here has never made an indie video game in their life and that everyone is just whining which I think is also unproductive. If a majority of your player base is “whining” then the problem isn’t with the community, just saying. 

This this this so much this.  This is why I just flat out stopped interacting here for the most part after the rather lackluster round of patch fixes, I got so tired of every thread having at least one person going "unless you're a truly enlightened game developer programmer  you have no idea what it's like to make something as intricate as a holy video game".

I don't know how to fly a helicopter either, but I think I can call out something being wrong when I see one upside down in a tree on fire.   And then I think I can call the fire chief's priorities a bit skewed when all he's done is show me pictures of some replacement windshield glass that will be arriving at some indeterminate time to fix the helicopter when I can still see smoke billowing from the engine compartment.

Man did I have an internal debate about posting this tortured metaphor.  But screw it, here goes.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Razor235

[uglyduckling81]

18 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

That is true, however their community doesn’t consist of 100 people, so you have got a ways to go before you get to a majority. 

100 people is the majority of the remaining player base though.

[Alexoff]

By the way, none of us is a practicing community manager, so none of us understands how developers should interact with the audience

 

The patch will be released in June, science will be released in 2024, version 1.0 will be released in the twenties, that's all you need to know

Edited May 20, 2023 by Alexoff

[cocoscacao]

20 hours ago, nestor said:

Update 0.1.3.0 will include new parts, as we've said we are trying to balance new content, bug fixing, performance improvements and science development.

Many thanks for sharing this. My major issue with dev communication so far, is the lack of such statements. Yeah, we do get sneak peaks, but we don't know if that's all or not. Saying that you're trying to balance new content, bug fixes and performance is a lot better than saying "we're working on the game". Or maybe I'm just nitpicking. It is obvious, but I prefer a more in depth statements like that.

[Superfluous J]

57 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

But it isn't one car.  Its nearly every driver complaining of the same issue with every car.  At this point it isn't shutting down the factory for one car, but rather halting production to make sure no more faulty cars get made.

Which car companies never do. But this metaphor doesn't need more fuel I suppose.

[PDCWolf]

1 hour ago, MechBFP said:

That is true, however their community doesn’t consist of 100 people, so you have got a ways to go before you get to a majority. 

See that's the problem with limiting yourself to one community, and I must add, the most echo-chambery one: you end up having a case of cognitive dissonance. I might recommend you go to Reddit, the Steam reviews, Steam discussions, and comments for the updates on those places as well. You can also check the comments on youtubers' videos, twitter, tiktok, and other socials they have as well. The dislike for the state of the game is almost global, and the discontent with the devs' communications is even more so.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that the only place where these "dev blogs" are not taken as a bad joke is here.

[Alexoff]

46 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

I might recommend you go to Reddit, the Steam reviews, Steam discussions, and comments for the updates on those places as well. You can also check the comments on youtubers' videos, twitter, tiktok, and other socials they have as well.

It seems to me that in those social networks, KSP2 is practically not remembered. I know several sites where it is no longer possible to talk about this game, since everything is clear to all the other interlocutors. What to discuss?

[MechBFP]

1 hour ago, PDCWolf said:

I might recommend you go to Reddit, the Steam reviews, Steam discussions, and comments for the updates on those places as well.

I have, just because some people post in 6 different places doesn’t magically increase the overall numbers in the community lol. 

[Vanamonde]

3 hours ago, Nicrose said:

And seeing various different items (like grid fins) being prioritized over other things (science, engines, etc) 

They are working on bug fixes. They are also working on grid fins. But since it's hard to show a picture of a bug in mid-fix, they showed a grid fin instead. This implies nothing about priorities. 

Quote

they allow their staff to work on whatever they feel like 

Is it your impression that a dev went rogue and snuck in a grid fin while no one was looking? 

[Scarecrow71]

3 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

They are working on bug fixes. They are also working on grid fins. But since it's hard to show a picture of a bug in mid-fix, they showed a grid fin instead. This implies nothing about priorities.

I think the big issue with this is that we get one half-sentence about bug fixes, which is followed by multiple paragraphs about new parts.  Parts that may not work if the bugs aren't fixed, as it were.  And not to beat a dead horse, but the big bugs we are most vocal about have been there since launch and the devs/Nate/CM's have barely (if at all) even mentioned that they are aware of said bugs.  Heck, it took me multiple posts in multiple places just to get Dakota to admit they are aware of the trajectory bug...and it hasn't been mentioned since.

So you see, the issue is optics, really.  We can't get any answers on what bugs are being worked on, coupled with multiple paragraphs about new shinies, on top of weekly challenges that some of us can't do because we can't play the game in its current state.  Like, what do we have to do to get the answers we so desperately need to keep our hopes up?

[PDCWolf]

14 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

I have, just because some people post in 6 different places doesn’t magically increase the overall numbers in the community lol. 

Good, cognitive dissonance confirmed.

9 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

But since it's hard to show a picture of a bug in mid-fix

You can, KSP1 did, with public bugtracking.

[Razor235]

11 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

You can, KSP1 did, with public bugtracking.

See also Factorio, Satisfactory, Terra Invicta, Dwarf Fortress...

 

Even Halo Infinite devs at least talked about desync, and they suck at communcation.

[m4inbrain]

19 hours ago, Vanamonde said:

For one thing, people keep demanding "transparency." 

 

Rightfully so. Sadly, that has yet to be delivered on. 

.. unless you consider "There will be a patch, at some point. It'll have stuff. Not gonna tell you what kind of stuff, but it'll have some. It'll come out at some point." transparency. I call it trying to string people along, because the numbers like player retention etc are not just visible to us. 

It really grinds my gears seeing someone (especially a staffer) trying to blame things on the community rather than where it belongs, the developers. Start with explaining why people keep demanding transparency. I know, community bad, entitled (who'd expect more than a barely a minimum viable product at that price point and the announcements that the game only required polish, i know) - but reality is rather different. Acting like "demanding" transparency is somehow outrageous is asinine. At best. 

[Strawberry]

For those worrying about the programmers who implement grid fins, keep in mind implementing them is so easy the relatively small ksp2 modders have already done it. Implementing new parts like these on a code side doesnt tend to be that hard. 

27 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I think the big issue with this is that we get one half-sentence about bug fixes, which is followed by multiple paragraphs about new parts.  Parts that may not work if the bugs aren't fixed, as it were.  And not to beat a dead horse, but the big bugs we are most vocal about have been there since launch and the devs/Nate/CM's have barely (if at all) even mentioned that they are aware of said bugs.  Heck, it took me multiple posts in multiple places just to get Dakota to admit they are aware of the trajectory bug...and it hasn't been mentioned since.

Genuine question out of curiosity, what do you want to hear? It's pretty evident that they either haven't fixed the bug yet, or confirmed it to be fixed yet, as otherwise they likely would've told us by now. You can of course take this in a cynical "ksp2 dev team is unequipped to deal with bugs" or an optimistic "ksp2 dev team is struggling to deal with very difficult bugs" view, but that doesn't really matter here. Generally speaking, the statement of "We are still at work fixing bugs like this" will be true for both of those views. Would going into the more technical side of things (ie currently we believe it's due to multiple bugs in different areas complicating our search) be satisfying?

[adsii1970]

Okay, folks, your friendly moderator again. Tempers are getting high. Let’s keep the focus on the game and less on whose opinion on transparency or lack of transparency is right/wrong or just plain nerfed.

As a reminder, no personal attacks, threats of violence, or any other violations of the forum guidelines. So, have fun, engage in healthy debate, but stay in the lines.

Some posts have been removed that were not within the forum guidelines. 

[Scarecrow71]

26 minutes ago, Strawberry said:

Genuine question out of curiosity, what do you want to hear? It's pretty evident that they either haven't fixed the bug yet, or confirmed it to be fixed yet, as otherwise they likely would've told us by now. You can of course take this in a cynical "ksp2 dev team is unequipped to deal with bugs" or an optimistic "ksp2 dev team is struggling to deal with very difficult bugs" view, but that doesn't really matter here. Generally speaking, the statement of "We are still at work fixing bugs like this" will be true for both of those views. Would going into the more technical side of things (ie currently we believe it's due to multiple bugs in different areas complicating our search) be satisfying?

Great question.  To digress slightly, I like it when questions come while this so they can generate good conversation. 

With that said, anything really would be better than what we have gotten.  In a perfect situation, we would at least get told what bugs they are working on instead of a generic "We are working in stuff".  At least that way we would know what bugs they are working on.  Alternatively- and this has been brought up multiple times now - a public bug tracker would be nice.  We honestly have no way of knowing what threads the devs have read, or what Discord posts, or what stuff we have sent through the bug report button.  We know they are dealing with bugs...but which ones?  I keep going back to the big ones that have been reported since day one, and we have heard nothing on them.  How are we supposed to have faith that they are being looked at when we simply don't know what they are doing?

To be fair, I am not looking for in depth code details on the bugs.  While some of us could understand it, it wouldn't do any good to get to that level of detail.  But a simple "Hey, we are looking at this bug that does this" would certainly go a long way.

[darthgently]

4 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

Which car companies never do. But this metaphor doesn't need more fuel I suppose.

To be fair, with a serious enough issue, this is exactly what a big car manufacturer recall does (shuts down, or immediately corrects, production of the product line involved) if the company is smart anyway. Why keep stamping out broken cars with lawyer grab-handles mounted on them?

[moeggz]

So it’s a good thing you got Darrin to stop posting in discord cuz looks like the statement “science is at least six months away” is not, as he said, “very incorrect across the board.

Unless he meant it’s actually years away, or not coming at all.