What may ultimately drive me away from the Kerbal Space Program

[Klapaucius]

 A bit of history: I did not even want to pay Kerbal. I got asked to help run a community program using KSP with kids in our library.  I had not played games since I was a kid (other than solitaire) and was very frustrated over the weekend I spent having to learn this thing on the fly.

Here is my first post:

And yet this game got its hooks into me.  I now have over 1800 hours in Kerbal Space Program 1 and 167 in Kerbal Space Program 2 (KSP sounds too much like KFC to me--not a fan of abbreviating everything), a lot of that time spent building ridiculous craft and making them fly.

What kept me going and going was the community, specifically this forum.  The fun of the game was doing challenges, building nutty stuff and then sharing it.   Highlights include my first thread of the month:

Getting featured twice on the official KSP Twitter feed first for my centipede plane and then for my frog was amazing.

Getting kudos and support from other forum members and Squad Staff. @Just Jim said many a kind word, and that was a big boost.

My favorite challenge I participated in was probably @Kergarin's walker challenge, which inspired a whole lot of silliness in me.  

My K.R.A.S.S.H. Industries (Klapaucius Reliable Air, Space, Sea & Hardware) motto: Practicality is for the unenlightened came out of this challenge.

There are so many challenges I enjoyed--both those I created and those created by others.

 

This is a very roundabout way of saying that  I think I would have dropped it long ago if I only had myself and my PC.   The community makes this game.  But that community is fraying. Yes, the new game has issues, and yes they can be frustrating, yet it seems so many discussions, especially when we get an official update, devolve into gripe sessions. The moderators have done an amazing job of trying to keep things on track, but there is only so much they can do.

I respect that there are many for whom trying to play the game in its current state is too much, and have taken a break. I respect there are those trying to make constructive feedback and move things forward. But I really have an issue with a lot of the criticism that is not constructive, often entitled and does nothing to move the game forward.  There is a damned if you do, damned if you don't aspect these days. If we don't get an update, someone gripes about lack of updates. If we do get one, someone asks why we got one if it does not contain every item they hoped for.  This is exhausting.  Part of me thinks I should just not read those threads, but another part of me wonders why I should have to.

These days "Telling it like it is" often seems an excuse to be rude or abusive.  In addition, as someone living not in the country of my birth, I have come to realize that other cultures may have different ways of dealing with conflict.  How I navigate conflict here in New Zealand is far different to how I navigate it back when I am in the US.  We have an international forum here, including many people whose first language is not English.  It helps to err on the side of diplomacy.

Anyone who has seen me on these forums over the past five years knows I try not to get in disputes, try to see the positive and try to be helpful and constructive when I can.  I'm not sure even posting this thread is a good idea, and I may be inadvertently inviting that which I am trying to work against.  But I am just frustrated--not at the game, but at the community. I feel let down.

Fortunately, I have other wonderful things in my life. I belong to a keen boardgaming group and I am an avid whitewater kayaker, which gets me outside and active, challenging me in a myriad of ways.  Perhaps a few other folks who are riled up might consider getting outdoors--it does wonders to clear the head and calm the nerves.

I'm just not sure I want to be part of this forum anymore, despite the many wonderful folks who are still here.

Ultimately, it will not be the bugs and crashes that drive me away from Kerbal. It will be the negativity.

 

[RocketRockington]

I'll be honest, despite the extremely nice tone of this, I almost reported it because yet again it's another post trying to tell people what they shouldn't be allowed to say, which is against guidelines.

Instead, I'm replying because you seem reasonable, and I'd like you to consider where the fault actually lies, rather than blaming some.of.yiur fellow community members.

KSP2 spent 4 years building hype.  When in 2019 you're hyping a game for a 2020 release when it was clearly so bad that you had to release as a tech demo EA in 2023... That's not just optimism or marketting, that's bald faced lying in the extreme.

Now, it's 2023 after all those years of hype.  And of course, the community is fractured now.  Some people are heavily invested in the project being good, to the point they'll latch onto any improbable theory of it being restarted, or all the features being nearly done but not quite ready - and I think a lot of it is just not wanting to be wrong after building thier hopes for that long, not wanting to admit they were fooled. Especially when many people will trash KSP1 in the same breath, having put all thier faith in KSP2.

Some people feel betrayed by the hype, by devs who presented themselves as fans but went on to deliver what got delivered.

Some people just want us to get along - but there's no way for that to happen when everyone talks past each other.

However, since you seem reasonable.  Think about this.  The community for KSP wasn't good just because it was nice people - it's still the same people now.  It was because the company who ran this game set a better model, treated its fans with more maturity.

And the company that runs KSP2 set a model of lying to its fans - and now is starting to blame them for not forgetting  past lies and accepting current garbage.  As Vanamond put it, we demand "transparency" as if that's something to be scoffed at.  This is the same model the most toxic game devs follow, the Call.of Duties and GTAs of the world: fans are immature excrements that can be lied to without compunction because they're entitled kids who just deserve to pay you for whatever you sell. 

So if you want to blame someone - feel free to blame toxic fans, I'm  not gonna tell you what to post, even if it's the same community that was here during KSP1.  But if you still can consider other perspectives - look at what changed. I don't blame the hyper optimistic fans, I blame Intercept management.

PS: the walker challenge was awesome.

Edited May 21, 2023 by RocketRockington

[AtomicTech]

22 minutes ago, Klapaucius said:

Ultimately, it will not be the bugs and crashes that drive me away from Kerbal. It will be the negativity.

Aye; the great thing about us here is that we aren't like a lot of the other gaming communities. Where they're toxic, we're helpful. Where they're abusive, we're respectful. Where they're vulgar, we're civil. Where they're closed-minded, we're creative. 

If we lose any of these vital things that make us the Kerbal Space Program Community then we don't deserve that name or the game at all.

[VlonaldKerman]

Thank you for this very thoughtful post, I mostly agree with your sentiments here. I'd like to respond specifically to some of your statements:

30 minutes ago, Klapaucius said:

I respect there are those trying to make constructive feedback and move things forward. But I really have an issue with a lot of the criticism that is not constructive, often entitled and does nothing to move the game forward.

I completely agree. I'll get to this later in my post.

30 minutes ago, Klapaucius said:

There is a damned if you do, damned if you don't aspect these days. If we don't get an update, someone gripes about lack of updates. If we do get one, someone asks why we got one if it does not contain every item they hoped for.

I generally find this to be true as well, however I would like to put one asterisk next to this statement. While it is unreasonable to expect frequent community updates which each address tons of important issues, there is, in principle, a reasonable pace of development which it is possible to exceed and to fall short of. If the KSP 2 team was working at the speed of light (pun??? I can't tell)  then they could release as many updates as they want and not have to make a tradeoff between frequent updates and substantive ones. However, if, for example, there was some issue with the programmers working on KSP 2, and they were moving too slowly, the PR team would be stuck between a rock and a hard place: release frequent but underwhelming updates, or release infrequent updates to the dismay of the community, but address many issues in each one. Again, though, there is a way around this problem: develop the game at a sufficient pace. In this hypothetical (but maybe not hypothetical), the criticism which is directed at (relatively) innocent PR people who are stuck doing their job ought to be directed at the actual developers themselves as well as the high-level administrators who control the PR narrative. Whether or not the community on the forum has reasonable expectations for the pace of development of the game, though, as I'm sure we agree, is a different matter.

 

30 minutes ago, Klapaucius said:

I belong to a keen boardgaming group and I am an avid whitewater kayaker, which gets me outside and active, challenging me in a myriad of ways.  Perhaps a few other folks who are riled up might consider getting outdoors--it does wonders to clear the head and calm the nerves.

I have a lot of time on my hands these days, and I do find myself making KSP 2 posts in bursts that last for a few days, then backing away a lot and letting things ruminate. It's definitely a positive thing to do- I love rock climbing, for instance.

 

Finally, I'd just like to plug some of the forum pages which I've started, including the one I just created which is dedicated to posts containing actual evidence to substantiate claims, rather than relying on emotionally charged rhetoric or hearsay. I find many of these threads to be generally respectful, reasonable, and constructive, if not entirely positive. Like with any online forum, there are the mass discussion places that tend to be more like sound-bitey news stations, and some more select threads that are more like old-school, long-form investigative pieces (to stick with the news analogy). If you decide you still feel like engaging on this forum, I'd be happy to have you there.

Edited May 21, 2023 by VlonaldKerman

[Vanamonde]

Take heart, @Klapaucius. The forum is always like this for a while after a new game version comes out. It's been a long time since there was a substantially new version to react to so your memories have become a bit rose-tinted. This isn't even as bad as the time Squad partnered with Curse, and it's no worse than... The Barn! dun dun DUN! 

[Klapaucius]

Just now, Vanamonde said:

Take heart, @Klapaucius. The forum is always like this for a while after a new game version comes out. It's been a long time since there was a substantially new version to react to so your memories have become a bit rose-tinted. This isn't even as bad as the time Squad partnered with Curse, and it's no worse than... The Barn! dun dun DUN! 

What is the barn? Do tell...

[Vanamonde]

2 minutes ago, Klapaucius said:

What is the barn? Do tell...

It was the worst thing that ever happened anywhere! A set of tier-1 KSC buildings which people threw such a hissyfit about that Squad removed it from the game before it even was included in a version released to players. You can still find the pictures if you poke around the internet a little. 

[TLTay]

I see on places like reddit and social media more and more an odd social behavior where people are seemingly unable to offer a critical or corrective view on things, but can seemingly only express positivity, supportiveness, or unity when the situation may not be appropriate.

This is such a situation. KSP2 release and everything leading up to it is the epitome of customer and community abuse by a game developer, as has become increasingly common in these years. People are seeing similar actions by game companies and are feeling increasingly abused and taken advantage of. Once upon a time, games shipped complete or didn't ship. They were performant or the company went out of business. (I don't need to be told what early access is, this isn't it, this is like shipping a car with no transmission for full price to be installed sometime soonish, maybe?) People are chafing about the whole industry and the industry needs to feel it or it will never stop. Remaining positive will not help.

I'd rather read a helpful critical review than an unhelpful pep talk any day. Imagine how many people would be wasting money and stress if every steam review on every game was positive so as not to be negative.

Edited May 21, 2023 by TLTay

[Vanamonde]

The suggestion that the internet is not harsh and critical enough is certainly an unusual opinion. 

[mcwaffles2003]

@Klapaucius

I've taken a break from both the game and the forum besides once in a while visiting to see if news hits. I've taken a break from the game as it's pretty broken and lacking features and it felt like any bugs I reported weren't doing anything or I didn't know if I was reporting something that's been reported 100 times.  Seriously a public bug list would be appreciated... I've taken a break from the forums because whiny people that haven't even been here for 6 months are just crying with no suggestions of improvement have flooded here and it's just not really fun to interact here in general anymore with that going on. This place used to be pretty positive and now it just feels kinda toxic.

[AtomicTech]

11 hours ago, Vanamonde said:

This isn't even as bad as the time Squad partnered with Curse, and it's no worse than... The Barn! dun dun DUN! 

Say, my good fellow, where can I find an archive of these long forgotten times?

8 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

because whiny people that haven't even been here for 6 months are just crying with no suggestions of improvement have flooded here

That does suck, yeah...

8 hours ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

This place used to be pretty positive and now it just feels kinda toxic.

I'd give it some time; I think @Vanamonde's insight is pretty relevant

11 hours ago, Vanamonde said:

It was the worst thing that ever happened anywhere! A set of tier-1 KSC buildings which people threw such a hissyfit about that Squad removed it from the game before it even was included in a version released to players. You can still find the pictures if you poke around the internet a little. 

Someone ought to mod it back in!

[Bej Kerman]

14 hours ago, RocketRockington said:

I'll be honest, despite the extremely nice tone of this, I almost reported it because yet again it's another post trying to tell people what they shouldn't be allowed to say, which is against guidelines.

This is just incorrect.

14 hours ago, RocketRockington said:

that's bald faced lying in the extreme

Ironic.

14 hours ago, RocketRockington said:

we demand "transparency"

Well you are getting transparency. Hell, it's stupid how many people claim the devs are radio silent as if we're not getting more dev posts than we ever got during KSP 1's tenure. 

14 hours ago, RocketRockington said:

feel free to blame toxic fans, I'm  not gonna tell you what to post

[snip]

[Alexoff]

To enjoy the game, you do not need to read the forums at all. I only went to this forum to find the latest version of some mod or to complain to the modder about some identified problem, sometimes I posted my videos in the appropriate topic.

But...

If every news from the developers causes a scandal on the forum, then perhaps something is wrong with the development of the game? Perhaps someone has told incredible stories before about how someone plays multiplayer and after work plays KSP2 for recreation? Maybe someone polished the game for three years and released a pathetic likeness of a KSP1 remaster of the earliest versions? No, this is nonsense! The community is just toxic, unconstructive and bad! Well then, good luck to T2 management to find some other community that will buy the game and praise their great work

[Bej Kerman]

Just now, Alexoff said:

If every news from the developers causes a scandal on the forum

The news people claim isn't being put out by the devs?

[AtomicTech]

13 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

The community is just toxic, unconstructive and bad!

We are not; we're just mad because we feel that we've been misled on this game that we've been dreaming about for four years. We're patient but we're not push overs.

13 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

praise their great work

We give praise where praise is due. Just look at the mod add-on pages of the before-times (before KSP 2) and the commentary on the planet revamps and the inclusion of EVA building for KSP 1.

Edited May 21, 2023 by AtomicTech

[Alexoff]

27 minutes ago, AtomicTech said:

We are not; we're just mad because we feel that we've been misled on this game that we've been dreaming about for four years. We're patient but we're not push overs.

Who cares? The right community in 2023 should treat adult developers like kids taking their first steps. Perhaps in 30 years, developers will become the new einsteins of the world of computer game development?! Quantum mechanics does not forbid such a possibility.

29 minutes ago, AtomicTech said:

We give praise where praise is due. Just look at the mod add-on pages of the before-times (before KSP 2) and the commentary on the planet revamps and the inclusion of EVA building for KSP 1.

But the game should be praised for the pictures that the developers draw in our imagination, and not for what we see in the game itself. According to the developers, modern games should have such a community.

I heard the opinion that the modern gaming industry is specifically squeezing old-school players into real life, so that they can be replaced by a new generation, accustomed to low-quality mobile games with monetization, who have not seen normal games due to their age.

[AtomicTech]

10 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

Who cares? The right community in 2023 should treat adult developers like kids taking their first steps. Perhaps in 30 years, developers will become the new einsteins of the world of computer game development?! Quantum mechanics does not forbid such a possibility.

But the game should be praised for the pictures that the developers draw in our imagination, and not for what we see in the game itself. According to the developers, modern games should have such a community.

I heard the opinion that the modern gaming industry is specifically squeezing old-school players into real life, so that they can be replaced by a new generation, accustomed to low-quality mobile games with monetization, who have not seen normal games due to their age.

I can't tell what stance you're taking.

You're putting down both Intercept Games and the rest of the KSP Community while promoting yourself as being a level above everyone else because you're accustomed to games that are rough around the edges on release?

Or is this some sort of epic exercise in sarcasm?

[Alexoff]

8 minutes ago, AtomicTech said:

I can't tell what stance you're taking.

You're putting down both Intercept Games and the rest of the KSP Community while promoting yourself as being a level above everyone else because you're accustomed to games that are rough around the edges on release?

Or is this some sort of epic exercise in sarcasm?

Really, where can one see signs of sarcasm here?

I'm too lazy to look for my previous messages, but I have written more than once that the developers are always to blame for criticism from the players. If they more or less kept their promises and released normal games, then all the criticism would drown in positive reviews and no one would tell how hard it is for gentle developers to work.

In my opinion, Nate and his team are incredibly lucky with the community, if, for example, the developers of GTA6 decided to release such an early access game, they would receive a review bombing of unprecedented proportions, and journalists would arrange a tote whether the game would become the lowest rated on metacritic. And then, Nate would have to work in Uber, but another, better known Uber.

[AtomicTech]

Just now, Alexoff said:

Really, where can one see signs of sarcasm here?

I'm too lazy to look for my previous messages, but I have written more than once that the developers are always to blame for criticism from the players. If they more or less kept their promises and released normal games, then all the criticism would drown in positive reviews and no one would tell how hard it is for gentle developers to work.

In my opinion, Nate and his team are incredibly lucky with the community, if, for example, the developers of GTA6 decided to release such an early access game, they would receive a review bombing of unprecedented proportions, and journalists would arrange a tote whether the game would become the lowest rated on metacritic. And then, Nate would have to work in Uber, but another, better known Uber.

Thank you for the clarification!

I do agree with you stance now

[KSK]

14 hours ago, Vanamonde said:

Take heart, @Klapaucius. The forum is always like this for a while after a new game version comes out. It's been a long time since there was a substantially new version to react to so your memories have become a bit rose-tinted. This isn't even as bad as the time Squad partnered with Curse, and it's no worse than... The Barn! dun dun DUN! 

I'll see your Barn and raise you a 'getting rid of the Round8 tank.'  

[Scarecrow71]

On 5/20/2023 at 7:53 PM, Klapaucius said:

Ultimately, it will not be the bugs and crashes that drive me away from Kerbal. It will be the negativity.

This is the probably the best part of your post to respond to.  Primarily because it sums up how you feel, and that's what I need to respond to.

To be very precise, you are sick of the negativity...that you pointed out over people who are criticizing the game.  I don't disagree with you that there are extremists on both sides of the argument, and the negativity from that does in fact suck.  But to proclaim you are done with the negativity after calling out those who criticize is simply a one-sided view of the situation.

[snip]

Edited May 23, 2023 by Starhawk
Redacted by moderator

[Bej Kerman]

1 minute ago, Scarecrow71 said:

But to proclaim you are done with the negativity after calling out those who criticize

To claim the developers are not being transparent when they are posting frequent updates and calling out non-existent visual bugs is not criticism, it's just a tantrum.

[AtomicTech]

16 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I fail to see how there is no favoritism when threads from pro-KSP2 users are allowed but the opposing viewpoints aren't.

Huh, I hadn't noticed this. Perhaps it's Intercept meddling?

1 hour ago, KSK said:

I'll see your Barn and raise you a 'getting rid of the Round8 tank.'  

They tried to get rid of that!? 

[AtomicTech]

27 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

To claim the developers are not being transparent when they are posting frequent updates and calling out non-existent visual bugs is not criticism, it's just a tantrum.

They're being selectively transparent.

Have they taken time to admit the fact that KSP 2 is nearly unplayable for a wide majority of the KSP community?

It makes you wonder what KSP 2 would've been like if @HarvesteR were at the helm....

[Dantheollie]

I find it disheartening that the replies to this post have become the very thing the author of the post was complaining about. Nothing can be done about that though, as an online forum, this is just the natural state of things.

Our community here is relatively small however and a lot of familiar faces pop-up in these spiraling discussions. Maybe they pop-up too much, if you understand what I'm saying.

If my opinion can be of any value (which it isn't) I'd like to respectfully ask a particular set of users if it is worth the time and effort to continuously battle each other, at the detriment of the social fabric of our community. Sometimes it is better to acknowledge a differing opinion, and feel that one need not respond