Shadowzone's findings on KSP2 history

[RayneCloud]

3 hours ago, Vexillar said:

@ShadowZone - thanks. This seems to answer a lot of questions.

 

I respectfully disagree with @linuxgurugamer's statement that KSP2 as it stands at the moment is an entirely unsalvageable "Start over" project. I can't believe people are even entertaining this as an idea. With respect to all of his work over the years, this is just not a statement I agree with at all. As to this video, thanks for covering this @ShadowZone and thanks for bringing on Matt and Scott. Good work.

I have some issues with things said in the video, but I don't see much a point in going over that now. I'm just glad someone is publicly digging like this and calling out T2, but do not expect to ever see anything from them.

[Palshife]

It's sad to see pretty much all of my assumptions confirmed, but it'll be nice to move on. It's clear now that the game, and likely the IP, are dead.

Thanks to all the people that actually tired to make this work, and to all those that screwed it up to make a buck I offer...less kind sentiments that you don't care about anyway.

Uninstalling and logging out. Take care, all!

[Bej Kerman]

1 minute ago, RayneCloud said:

I respectfully disagree with @linuxgurugamer's statement that KSP2 as it stands at the moment is an entirely unsalvageable "Start over" project. I can't believe people are even entertaining this as an idea. With respect to all of his work over the years, this is just not a statement I agree with at all.

With respect, what would it take to fix KSP 2 then? Nobody's saying it's physically impossible to salvage, but generally "unsalvageable" means the magnitude of resources needed to get an improvement over KSP 1 probably wouldn't be worth it.

[dave1904]

9 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Funny how nobody bats an eye to this brand of malice.

Why should they? People forgive mistakes but not lies. Fact is he lied so I'm not going to defend him. Lying is a nogo for me. I dont care how nice you are. 

[Bej Kerman]

1 minute ago, dave1904 said:

Why should they?

Because no well-adjusted person is going around wishing bad on others?

[Icegrx]

2 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Because no well-adjusted person is going around wishing bad on others?

I wished that he felt bad and sad for awhile. For my ill wishes of people, this one’s pretty innocent 

[dave1904]

2 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Because no well-adjusted person is going around wishing bad on others?

He didn't wish him bad. If someone lies to me. I honestly dont care if they feel bad about it. After all they did it to themselves. 

[Fizzlebop Smith]

I am just glad someone with status has confirmed something many of us have complained about since day one...

Nate is a willfully blind Narcissist on an Ego trip. Yes he may be nice and energetic.

The need to focus on visuals over all else because that's what *he* wanted out of the game. Must be the most important thing to us as well.

Unwillingness to consult was prolly above his head, but asanine meddling and micromanaging all around.

Also, It does show a degree of dishonesty that was purposeful. With multiplayer being axed for so long & no adjustments to the road map.

It is so mind blowing if he pulls through this smelling like roses.

 

Edited May 24 by Fizzlebop Smith

[Bej Kerman]

7 minutes ago, dave1904 said:

He didn't wish him bad. If someone lies to me. I honestly dont care if they feel bad about it. After all they did it to themselves. 

Frankly, it's just a game.

[dave1904]

4 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Frankly, it's just a game.

I'm with you on that. I understand that the comment was in bad taste. 

[Lisias]

11 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Frankly, it's just a game.

Nope. It's also a (estimated) 80 Millions USD investment that gone down trough the tubes.

Edited May 24 by Lisias
Kraken damned auto-correctors!

[Bej Kerman]

Just now, Lisias said:

Nope. It's also a (estimated) 80 Millions USD investment that gone down trough the tubed.

Profanity happens, and I doubt T2 will lack the funds for another yacht over KSP 2.

[farelinho]

Thank you @ShadowZone! You certainly went through a lot of work to make this great video!

As you said, this community is strong, and I add that you are part of its strength!

Despite all these (not unexpected) bad news, there still is a big community that keeps a place for a game like KSP2, and I still think that there may be some ways to salvage it, if it gets out of T2's hands.

 

[drhay53]

As someone who has and does work in a software environment under dysfunctional project management, none of this explanation surprises me. I had a lot of hope that I was wrong, but this mismanagement has been painfully obvious for years. All the way back to the earliest gameplay videos of KSP2, I was afraid something was up. 

 

I know what it's like to be a proxy product owner mired in political posturing and bad decisions that you know are bad; that are so patently obviously bad that in meetings you just throw up your hands and say out loud "what are we doing?" and everyone is silent because they know it's wrong but no one has the power to fix it. It sucks. It pulls all the life and motivation and excitement out of you.

 

So while I really wanted KSP2's vision to be realized, especially colonies, I take a small amount of solace in them eating a huge loss on the mess they played a role in creating. The only people I feel sorry for with no smug satisfaction are the devs that were stuck in this mess for years. They had no chance of being successful and it wasn't their fault. 

[moeggz]

Genuine thanks to @ShadowZone for putting this together. You were in a unique position where the devs/community trust you so they could speak with anonymity but you didn’t hide the share of the blame on IG/Star Theory/Uber. 
 

Im glad to see some not taking a simplistic view of “suits bad devs good” but seeing how there is blame to share here. T2 absolutely made dumb decisions and led to many of the problems this game faced, but they’re not the only bad guys. They gave double the time and 4x the financial support that was originally agreed on. Uber not knowing the true depth of development is on them, and then continuing the lies is still on the devs. 
 

If your manager sucks and is going to make the job take twice is long, you either let them know or calculate that slowdown into your internal projections. Thinking you can still do it on time and in budget with all of the strings T2 put on you is pure hubris.

And lying for your job doesn’t make you a bad person per se. But can we all agree that IG lied directly to the community multiple times now?

Multiplayer was internally canned for a long time, EA was for funding only they never wanted any of our feedback, and this game was clearly not a rewrite of the game. 
 

Us pessimists weren’t crazy, I’m not looking for a “you were right” or anything just can we agree it was a reasonable view and doesn’t make us haters?

I don’t wish ill will on anyone but let’s be real. It’s not mean to now say, “I will not buy another project Nate Simpson is attached to again.” Lying as part of the job doesn’t make him a bad person, but he sold his reputation to try and keep this thing going. We now know he’ll lie to make suits happy, and as such his word is worth nothing and I will never buy a game that has ties to him or T2 again.

[dprostock]

2 hours ago, ShadowZone said:

"You cannot NOT communicate."

The long silence was in itself a way to communicate corporate's disdain for our community. The silence also made people more willing to talk to me because they wanted the story to be heard. Had PD/T2 decided to be super open and transparent and honest, we would not be at this point.

Self-esteem issues. It's not a development in which you have competence.

Secrecy was kept to avoid showing how poorly the project was being carried out.

Anyway, I keep insisting, it's not just the monkey that's to blame, someone put him in the cockpit.  

"Ham" was not going to do anything but babble and push buttons.

[Izny]

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

Because no well-adjusted person is going around wishing bad on others?

I guess im not well adjusted then XD

[K^2]

2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

what would it take to fix KSP 2

@linuxgurugamer has it right. It needs new code.

There is a world where KSP2 is handed to a new team and they spend time fixing it and cleaning it up and turning KSP2 EA into some form of a finished product. That will still cost tens of millions of dollars and the result will be hardly worth it. I don't think anyone who can make KSP2 better will take the contract for the budget T2 is likely to offer.

The other possibility is you start from scratch. I would argue at this point, not switching to Unreal would be criminal. You can make the game work with Unity, but it will actually be a lot less effort, and therefore both cleaner and cheaper, to make it in Unreal. This game needs a clean break at this point.

 

Take Two very clearly doesn't want to do either of these things. I'm not going to say as strictly, "Not with Take Two," but definitely not with Take Two under current management. Either the IP gets sold, or we will be waiting a very long time before a proper attempt at the KSP2 can be made.

Unfortunately, I don't think T2 will sell the rights. Kerbals are too merchandisable. The business savvy move is probably to make non-KSP games based on the characters, and maybe some are already under development, just with the same degree of secrecy. Intercept was hiring for a game project that we've never heard anything about. It's not impossible that that project was transferred to another studio a while back and is still ongoing. Either way, that's likely what's next for Kerbins. The only way I can see a KSP-style game made with KSP IP in the near future is if a third party licenses the rights. T2 might be willing to license rather than sell. But that can lead to some unfortunate questions about KSP2 that could take a legal undertone, unless converting all of the KSP2 purchases into keys for the new game is part of the deal? I just don't know how has both the resources and the desire to take on the risk. I know RocketWerkz has been talking big about a KSP-successor, but I don't think they have the know-how or the resources either. They're in the same situation as the original Star Theory was at best. Very enthusiastic, with vision, and with no resources to drive that vision to completion.

This is pretty grim. I was trying to look for silver linings over the past few weeks, but I don't think there are any left. Other than being vindicated in saying that Intercept didn't just fail - they weren't given resources to have a chance at a success, the few things I was hoping for as a way to rectify the problem no longer appear to be in play.

 

Also, thanks @ShadowZone for an in-depth dive. A lot of this was clear to people familiar with the industry, but you filled in a lot of the pieces that make the overall picture look so much worse.

 

Edit:

1 hour ago, dave1904 said:

He didn't wish him bad. If someone lies to me. I honestly dont care if they feel bad about it. After all they did it to themselves. 

I'm not sure you watched the video. Everything that prevented Nate from making the game he was talking about has come from above. And while clearly, Nate was making decisions based on look and feel rather than technical realities, that is the job of the game's creative director. The game's technical director is supposed to be pumping the brakes and making corrections. That did not happen.

All of you taking it out on Nate is bad tone on top of being just coming across as someone being ignorant and incapable of comprehending information presented even if it's broken down to you in a video.

Edited May 24 by K^2

[dlrk]

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

Frankly, it's just a game.

Well, the thing is, is that isn't just a game. It's people's investments in time and money, it's people who lost their jobs due to mismanagement, it's art that will never be seen or built upon. It's also, as exposed in this video, dishonesty. Something doesn't have to be life and death for it to be important and relevant. In the grand scheme of things, is this earthshaking? No, of course not. But many people were disappointed, many people lost money, some people lost jobs. and some people acted dishonestly towards others - which is harmful and beyond "just a game" in and of itself. The way you conduct yourself matters (incidentally, I apologize for some ill-conceived posts I made right when the news of T2 closing IG broke).

So, yes, @Nate Simpson, and every other executive or decision maker should feel bad and sad for a while. Because when you screw something up badly, no matter what thing is or how relatively unimportant it may be in the grand scheme of things, you should feel bad and sad about it for a while. If dishonest behavior was part of that screw up, all the more reason to feel bad, sad, and reform yourself as a person so that you do things right and honestly in the future.

At the end of the day, the silver lining is we still have KSP1, it's still moddable, and it's fairly stable. I've been having a lot of fun with it lately.

Edited May 24 by dlrk

[whatsEJstandfor]

This was pretty cathartic to watch, and to get confirmation on things that I feel like we all had assumed for the past 4 years.

[Klapaucius]

I have been watching Mentour Pilot's excellent and depressing series of videos on Boeing and the effect the merger had on the corporate culture.  It is well worth checking out--there are three videos in the series so far. I have linked the first one below.

While details and circumstances are different, in both cases we see companies ignoring engineers, putting up front profits ahead of long-term development and destroying reputations in the process.

This is something my father, who worked for Pratt & Whitney for many years talked about.  He called it that quarterly profits focus the  "Harvard Business School" mentality.   The late 80s and early 90s were also the peak of that wave of corporate downsizing.  He hated the place the last 10 years (he retired in 1992), and it was interesting that when I met several of his co-workers at his funeral in 2006, they all said the same thing.

That is part of the reason I got an arts degree and after many zigs and zags, now work overseas in a public library. I wanted nothing to do with corporate America after watching my father's experience.  Unfortunately, I am still working for a city council. They just express their cost-cutting bureaucratic mindset slightly differently.

 

 

Edited May 24 by Klapaucius

[K^2]

Just now, dlrk said:

So, yes, @Nate Simpson should feel bad and sad for a while. Because when you screw something up badly

Please, watch the video again, and tell me what Nate should have been doing differently. Keep in mind, that the job of saying, "No, that's not how things work," falls on the technical director, not on Nate.

[Scarecrow71]

 

4 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

"Nate believed the difficulty introduced by wobble would be necessary to have a fun game."

That statement alone tells me he was the absolute wrong choice to lead this project.  I'm all for realism with joints; some flex, breaking under intense strain, maybe a slight jarring here or a minor shift there if you are being too overzealous.  But to just have a wet noodle flying through the atmosphere, and then try to sell it as both necessary and fun?  He has no clue.

2 hours ago, ShadowZone said:

The long silence was in itself a way to communicate corporate's disdain for our community.

Which a lot of us in the community have been saying since day 1.  We were told continuously that they wanted our feedback, and that the bug reports were good, and that we were important to the end product.  And then they clammed up and just pushed out whatever they thought was great, the community be damned.  Bugs be damned.  Heck, the game itself be damned, so long as the art and marketing departments were happy.

2 hours ago, RayneCloud said:

I respectfully disagree with @linuxgurugamer's statement that KSP2 as it stands at the moment is an entirely unsalvageable "Start over" project

I think this actually boils down to "How much of the code itself is salvageable, and how much has to be tossed and redone".  And depending upon your personal preference for how much code you think it takes to make the game salvageable, it could go either way.  I guess that, without knowing what the code itself looks like, and only looking at what the game is today...:shrug:?

2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Because no well-adjusted person is going around wishing bad on others?

I have no words.

4 minutes ago, K^2 said:

The other possibility is you start from scratch. I would argue at this point, not switching to Unreal would be criminal.

Hard agree.  Because I'm a software person myself (automation jockey mostly, but I dabble), I've actually downloaded and fired up Unreal.  Followed a small tutorial, and I've got a planet rotating in space near a star!  Hey, that's big news for me!  Anyhow, from what I understand Unreal is far better equipped to handle some of the physics than Unity is.  I just wonder how much of developers avoiding Unreal has to do with it being from Epic?

5 minutes ago, K^2 said:

Other than being vindicated in saying that Intercept didn't just fail - they weren't given resources to have a chance at a success

That was probably the most eye-opening thing I learned from this video.  I've seen my fair share of management imposing stupid rules on their teams in the name of business, but to be told you can't even talk to the former developers?  Don't look at the previous code and learn from their mistakes?  That alone should invoke firing of the entire board.

[TLTay]

Did anyone spill the beans on the other project the majority of the team was working on since EA release?

[dlrk]

1 minute ago, K^2 said:

Please, watch the video again, and tell me what Nate should have been doing differently. Keep in mind, that the job of saying, "No, that's not how things work," falls on the technical director, not on Nate.

"Nate believed the difficulty introduced by wobble would be necessary to have a fun game."

I'll rest on that.