[1.12.X] Tantares - Stockalike Soyuz and MIR [16.1][28.05.2024][Mars Expedition WIP]

[Galileo chiu]

does the 1.5 B6 patch still work?

[Kunosheru]

Hello, Beale! after a couple of months i came back with new part ideas. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bion_(satellite)

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Znamya_(satellite)

 https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-russian-space-mirror-briefly-lit-night-180957894/

 https://www.spacelegalissues.com/space-law-znamya-the-space-mirror/

Edited January 25, 2022 by Kunosheru

[KeaKaka]

On 1/23/2022 at 7:11 PM, Galileo chiu said:

does the 1.5 B6 patch still work?

yes.

[Cheesecake]

4 hours ago, Kunosheru said:

Hello, Beale! after a couple of months i came back with new part ideas. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bion_(satellite)

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Znamya_(satellite)

 https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-russian-space-mirror-briefly-lit-night-180957894/

 https://www.spacelegalissues.com/space-law-znamya-the-space-mirror/

I think it is a little bit late because Beale said that Tantares is final. No more parts.

[Kunosheru]

@Beale if so, can I... try to "continue" it? 

I loved this mod and always wanted to be part of something like this... I have a lot of free time and live in Russia, which can help in further development... if you don't mind, please, answer

[Galileo chiu]

Just now, Kunosheru said:

@Beale if so, can I... try to "continue" it? 

I loved this mod and always wanted to be part of something like this... I have a lot of free time and live in Russia, which can help in further development... if you don't mind, please, answer

if you do, add the MAKS Spaceplane

[Scarecrow71]

So, I've got a question regarding the parts in this pack, specifically their performance.  And I'll apologize up front if this has been asked an answered...but with 848 pages of posts on this mod, I just didn't go reading everything.  It's literally the definition of TLDR. 

Anyhow, I am working on recreating the Space Race, from the R-7 Semyorka launched in 1957 to the Mir space station inhabitation in 1990.  I am unfortunately only up to the Sputnik I launch (second launch in the timeline), and I'm already stuck.  The Sputnik I satellite was launched using the 8K71PS vehicle, which has only 2 stages:

• Liftoff stage consisting of 4 strap-on boosters (Block B, V, G, D) and powered by 4 RD-107 engines
• Transfer stage consisting of 1 Block A core and powered by 1 RD-108 engine

Sputnik I has an orbital inclination of 65.10 degrees, with an Ap of 939km and a Pe of 215km.  These should all be easily achievable with most stock parts...but the Tantares parts don't have the power/thrust/dV to get the satellite into orbit.  I tried multiple times today with this build, and the best I could reach was an Ap of ~85km with a Pe still under the atmospheric line of 70km.  I cannot even get into orbit with this launch vehicle, let alone into the historical orbit achieved by the actual Sputnik I.  For what it's worth, I'm launching from the Desert Complex, although I am told that Woomerang is closer to the real-life latitudinal coordinates that the Soviets used to launch from.

So what am I doing wrong here?  I tried using MechJeb to do the launch, but even MJ is having issues even reaching 70km, let alone hitting orbit (and I think that has to do with the fact that I don't have Advanced Flight Control unlocked in R&D in this particular career game yet).  Launching manually I have tried slight and heavy gravity turns, as well as launching straight up until the first stage is ejected and then doing a major gravity turn.  And on this note, the 4 RD-107  engines have a TWR on the launchpad with this vehicle of 0.97, which means I have no choice but to fire both the first and second stages at the same time, which uses up fuel that I shouldn't have to use up out of the Block A core.

Do the part files need modification to increase the output of the engines, or increase the capacity of liquid fuel available?  Is there some trick to launching with these parts that I am unaware of (and potentially missed due to not reading 800+ pages of posts)?  Were these parts not created to replicate historical launches?  Anybody have any idea as to what I need to do here to get this to work, beyond switching to strict core parts and "faking" the 8K17PS?

[Cheesecake]

@Scarecrow71Do you play in stock or in a rescaled (2.5x/2.7x) world like JNSQ or KSRSS or in RSS?
In Stock it should very overpowered. In a 2.5/2.7 it should have a similar performance like in real. This worked last time I used Tantares. Only in RSS/RO you need separate configs. Here you should ask the RO-Guys.

Also: I think you don`t understand the R-7. All Engines, core and Boosters are launched at the same time at launch in real. The Block A isn`t a second Stage like the most other launchers. R-7 without an real upper stage (designated as 3rd stage at R-7 derivates)  is more like a 1.5 stage design like Atlas.

[Scarecrow71]

@Cheesecake

I'm playing in stock 1.8.1; I do not have any physics-altering mods installed.  As far as understanding the engines goes, I literally went off the specs from the 8K71PS Wikipedia entry, and that states there are 2 distinct and separate stages:

Sputnik (rocket) - Wikipedia

Now, as you pointed out, I did end up having to fire the first and second stages (the 4 x RD-107 and 1 x RD-108) at the same time to get any type of lift off the Desert launchpad.  Unfortunately, I am unable to achieve orbit using this rocket.  I will state that I did alter the payload portion of the rocket slightly, but only to include a decoupler and a couple of the rectangular support columns to get the Sputnik probe up and away from the base of the fairing.  But the amount of weight added there is so small that it shouldn't have impacted the rocket's ability to reach orbit.

Again, I don't know why this thing won't reach orbit.  Here is a shot of the rocket in the VAB so you can see what I built:

What am I missing here?  Why do I not have a TWR higher than what I have, and why I am unable to reach orbit?  Again, I built this using the specs on the page I linked to for the actual 8K71PS rocket.  I could probably build the 8A91 rocket to launch Sputnik I...but that's not historically accurate.

Help?

[Cheesecake]

@Scarecrow71Are you really using only Tantares because i see Raidernicks parts. That`s not Tantares.

[Scarecrow71]

@Cheesecake

I only mentioned Tantares because that's where the vast majority of the parts I'm using on this vessel come from.  But, because you asked, the entire list of mods I'm using:

• Atmosphere Autopilot
• BahaSP
• MechJeb 2
• Kerbal Alarm Clock
• Reentry Particle Effect Renewed
• RN Salyut
• RN Soviet Probes
• RN Soviet Rockets
• RN Soyuz
• Tantares
• Tantares LV
• Trigger Tech

I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, and I am seriously needing help identifying why this rocket won't get into orbit with the Tantares engines and fuel tanks.

[Cheesecake]

@Scarecrow71Do I understand: You use the Core and Boosters from Raidernick (as we can see in the pic, the shown Block A and the boosters are NOT Tantares, they are from Raidernicks Soviet Rockets)) and use the engines from Tantares?
I think this is the problem because they are balanced different. It`s no good idea to mix this two mods because they are very different in look and performance (empty weight, quantity of fuel, ISP, Thrust...).
As example: I can see in the screenshot that the launcher has a weight of 97 tons. A Tantares R7 does never ever have 97 tons.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Cheesecake

[Scarecrow71]

49 minutes ago, Cheesecake said:

@Scarecrow71Do I understand: You use the Core and Boosters from Raidernick (as we can see in the pic, the shown Block A and the boosters are NOT Tantares, they are from Raidernicks Soviet Rockets)) and use the engines from Tantares?
I think this is the problem because they are balanced different. It`s no good idea to mix this two mods because they are very different in look and performance (empty weight, quantity of fuel, ISP, Thrust...).
As example: I can see in the screenshot that the launcher has a weight of 97 tons. A Tantares R7 does never ever have 97 tons.

Ah, that might be the issue here.  I thought the Block A and the boosters were from Tantares.  Back to the drawing board, and hopefully I can figure out which parts are from which mod!

[DeadJohn]

On 1/25/2022 at 7:10 AM, Kunosheru said:

@Beale if so, can I... try to "continue" it? 

I loved this mod and always wanted to be part of something like this... I have a lot of free time and live in Russia, which can help in further development... if you don't mind, please, answer

(I'm not speaking for @Beale and these are just my thoughts)

Most "continued" versions of mods are full adoptions of the original. Rather than making your mod "Tantares Continued", maybe think of it as "Tantares Plus" where you can create all-new models, or reference Tantares models in your own new part configs. You wouldn't need to copy anything from Tantares into your mod, just treat Tantares as a dependency.

That approach should be compatible with any license because you aren't copying files. I think the Tantares license lets you do more and bundle parts of Tantares, but you might not need to do so, and that gives Beale the flexibility to return to Tantares if he ever wants to do so without needing to take control back from you.

Good luck if you proceed with this. Here are some suggestions for parts I'd like to see:

• More SAF-style fairings for Soyuz. For example, some Soyuz launches use the Fregat upper stage in an expanded fairing. Fregat is already in Tantares, but the fairing is not. (yes, it can be done with a click-to-shape fairing but SAF style fairings with textures look much nicer)
• RD-0124 engines used in some recent Soyuz-2 models.
• MiG 105.
• MAKS. Already mentioned by someone else but worth mentioning again.

[Scarecrow71]

@Cheesecake

Worked like a charm once I removed most (not all) of Raidernick's parts.  One thing I am missing, though, are the Tantares probes shown on the first page.  None of them are found in CKAN...unless they are under a different name than Tantares?  I could grab them from GitHub, but I thought they'd all be in CKAN?

[Cheesecake]

5 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

@Cheesecake

Worked like a charm once I removed most (not all) of Raidernick's parts.  One thing I am missing, though, are the Tantares probes shown on the first page.  None of them are found in CKAN...unless they are under a different name than Tantares?  I could grab them from GitHub, but I thought they'd all be in CKAN?

You mean Tantares SP? I don`t know if they are on CKAN. But you can download and install it manually.

[Scarecrow71]

Just now, Cheesecake said:

You mean Tantares SP? I don`t know if they are on CKAN. But you can download and install it manually.

I shall have to do that as they aren't on CKAN.  Thanks again!

[Starhelperdude]

15 minutes ago, DeadJohn said:

RD-0124 engines used in some recent Soyuz-2 models.

we already have the RD-0124 in Eisenhower, it would be cool if anyone could make an autoshroud for it

[DeadJohn]

7 hours ago, Cheesecake said:

You mean Tantares SP? I don`t know if they are on CKAN. But you can download and install it manually.

7 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I shall have to do that as they aren't on CKAN.  Thanks again!

It's all on CKAN as these 4 mods: Tantares, Tantares LV, Tantares SP, and Tantares SAF.

The CKAN metadata for LV still says KSP 1.11, but you can force the install if you are using KSP 1.12.

Edited January 27, 2022 by DeadJohn

[Scarecrow71]

9 hours ago, DeadJohn said:

It's all on CKAN as these 4 mods: Tantares, Tantares LV, Tantares SP, and Tantares SAF.

The CKAN metadata for LV still says KSP 1.11, but you can force the install if you are using KSP 1.12.

Well, they display in CKAN...but they don't have the ability to be installed.  I can right-click and download, then unzip and drop in the GameData folder myself, which I did for the SP...and they didn't show up in the game.

Overall, it's not all that critical; I can use Raidernick's probes with Beale's rocket parts to accomplish what I need to accomplish.

[Ares27]

On 1/25/2022 at 1:10 PM, Kunosheru said:

@Beale if so, can I... try to "continue" it? 

I loved this mod and always wanted to be part of something like this... I have a lot of free time and live in Russia, which can help in further development... if you don't mind, please, answer

I've been thinking about this for a while but I'm terrible with blender, if you decide to proceed I want to offer my help with the balancing, config files and localizations. 

Edited January 30, 2022 by Ares27

[septemberWaves]

If a continuation does proceed, I have a fixed version of the TantaresLV 1.5m rescale patch that should probably be included, so let me know if that is needed at any point. The optional patch was meant to be restored to TantaresLV when I tracked down and fixed it (if I recall correctly it was accidentally removed during an update a while back) but that never happened before Beale discontinued the project.

[Beale]

I'd be extremely happy to see somebody continue the mod, but I'd like to see it demonstrated that they're actually capable of adding new parts, in game,  in the same spirit and style - not just squatting on the mod "namespace" and making minimal config / balance tweaks (and discouraging others from actually doing something interesting with it). Hope that makes sense.

I still like to keep my finger on the pulse, and I'm looking forward to creating more mods for KSP 2, but I won't be returning to KSP 1 modding, just to clear any confusion up

If you want to make an "tantares expanded" or similar mod, I don't hold the copyrights on Russian Spacecraft! go nuts!  

Edited January 31, 2022 by Beale

[OrbitalManeuvers]

On 1/26/2022 at 12:58 PM, Scarecrow71 said:

and hopefully I can figure out which parts are from which mod!

May I suggest Janitor's Closet?

10 minutes ago, Beale said:

but I won't be returning to KSP 1 modding

Well then a big "thank you" is in order for this amazing body of work. It adds so much to the game, thank you for all the labor you poured into this!

[AtomicTech]

35 minutes ago, Beale said:

I'd be extremely happy to see somebody continue the mod, but I'd like to see it demonstrated that they're actually capable of adding new parts, in game,  in the same spirit and style - not just squatting on the mod "namespace" and making minimal config / balance tweaks (and discouraging others from actually doing something interesting with it). Hope that makes sense.

I still like to keep my finger on the pulse, and I'm looking forward to creating more mods for KSP 2, but I won't be returning to KSP 1 modding, just to clear any confusion up

If you want to make an "tantares expanded" or similar mod, I don't hold the copyrights on Russian Spacecraft! go nuts!  

I'm 100% behind a continuation!

I'd really like to see some cool IVAs representing the rich Russian spaceflight history!