Rational Resources 3.0.2 [Sep 24, 2024]

[OhioBob]

1 hour ago, JadeOfMaar said:

@OhioBob I've given that data on the Propulsion page. I'm open to any changes you have, and any interesting propellant options you want to add entirely.

I'll look up what I have and I'll get back to you.  We can continue the conversation in Discord.

[TackleMcClean]

Hi there, I'm trying to troubleshoot an issue I have after updating RR to latest version. I had to update to make Kerbal Atomics work, but I'm getting this error even without Kerbal Atomics:

 

Installed mods:

Spoiler

000_AT_Utils/			  KronalVesselViewer/
000_ClickThroughBlocker/	  KSPWheel/
000_TexturesUnlimited/		  KSTS/
000_USITools/			  KXAPI/
001_ToolbarControl/		  LETech/
AntennaHelper/			  list.txt
B9PartSwitch/			  MarkIVSystem/
Benjee10_sharedAssets/		  ModularFlightIntegrator/
Benjee10_shuttleOrbiter/	  ModuleManager.4.0.2.dll*
BetterTimeWarp/			  ModuleManager.ConfigCache*
Bluedog_DB/			  ModuleManager.ConfigSHA*
Chatterer/			  ModuleManager.Physics*
CommunityCategoryKit/		  ModuleManager.TechTree*
CommunityResourcePack/		  NavyFish/
ConfigurableContainers/		  NearFutureElectrical/
CraftManager/			  NearFutureLaunchVehicles/
CryoEngines/			  NearFutureProps/
CryoEnginesRestock/		  NearFuturePropulsion/
CryoTanks/			  NearFutureSolar/
CTTP/				  NearFutureSpacecraft/
DeployableEngines/		  PlanetShine/
DiRT/				  PlumeParty/
DistantObject/			  PoodsSkyboxes/
DMagicScienceAnimate/		  PreciseManeuver/
DynamicBatteryStorage/		  RationalResources/
EasyVesselSwitch/		  RCSBuildAid/
EnvironmentalVisualEnhancements/  reDIRECT/
Firespitter/			  ReStock/
FShangarExtender/		  SCANsat/
GroundConstruction/		  scatterer/
HabTech2/			  ShipManifest/
Historian/			  SpaceY-Expanded/
htRobotics/			  SpaceY-Lifters/
JanitorsCloset/			  Squad/
JNSQ/				  StationPartsExpansionRedux/
JX2Antenna/			  StockVisualEnhancements/
KAS/				  SVT/
KerbalEngineer/			  Tantares/
KerbalFoundries/		  TantaresLV/
KerbalJointReinforcement/	  TrackingStationEvolved/
Kerbaltek/			  TriggerTech/
KIS/				  UmbraSpaceIndustries/
Kopernicus/			  UniversalStorage2/

 

Ah never mind, solved it. I should not have TankswitchExtras.cfg installed. Removing it fixed it for me.

Edited September 13, 2019 by TackleMcClean
Fixed it

[JadeOfMaar]

Release 1.0.0

DOWNLOAD :: GitHub :: SpaceDock

WIKI :: Exists

Screenshots: Nuclear aircraft in JNSQ Tylo atmosphere. Not an SSTO but able to fly infinitely and refuel its rocket engine from the atmosphere.

..

Be sure to delete and re-add any of the extras configs you are using as their filenames have changed.

Changelog:

• Split all added parts and active stock part modifications (except the experiment and the scanners) into their own mod, RationalResourcesParts. This allows RR itself to be a resource placement mod and absolutely nothing more, for those who want to bundle it or those who just don't want parts.
• Added nuclear engines:
  • "Panther" clone "Main Coon" nuclear turbojet with built-in nuclear reactor.
  • "NERVA" clones. The "O" edition is high thrust and can choose between Carbon Dioxide and Water. The "R" edition is high Isp and can choose between Hydrogen, Ammonia and Methane. Their mode switch feature requires B9 Part Switch 2.10 or later.
• Added/Updated LqdHe3 presence via ExoRock, ExoIce, Mun templates.
• Added LqdHe3 to RR Ground Scanner.
• Added Water to Duna.
• Reduced MetalOre tank volume. A full tank weighed far, far too much.
• WBI Classic Stock:
  • Changed nuclear engines to use Classic Stock resources.
  • Added OmniConverters for cycling Atmosphere and CompressedAtmosphere.
  • Provided tank types. Most of Pathfinder's tank types available to all stock tanks through the Extras config.
• Fixed small error in OPM science config.
• Fixed XM-G50 intake patch to use harvester modules for ocean filtering. Intake modules showed very undesired behavior.
• Changes concerning Eve oceans and Kerosene/LiquidFuel:
  • Added large Ore presence to Eve Shallows biome to compensate for a lack of proper heavy hydrocarbon resource outside of RealFuels.
  • Added Extras: RR_EveLiquidFuelOcean.cfg -- what it says on the tin. Also adds a LiquidFuel harvester module to the XM-G50 air scoop. The idea of this is both very necessary on one hand and very silly on the other hand so it will not be active by default and will not be endorsed for use elsewhere.
  • Removed CRP LqdMethane from Eve oceans as this is cryogenic and should not exist at a hot inner planet. It will still appear at any decent world with hydrocarbon oceans-- cold outer worlds.
  • Classic Stock Hydrokerbon presence is unchanged as it meets the mark.

Edited September 18, 2019 by JadeOfMaar

[Geonovast]

Moved to Add-on Releases.

[zer0Kerbal]

congrats on release!

[JadeOfMaar]

@zer0Kerbal thanks

[The-Doctor]

If I delete RR in my jnsq folder will ore, nitrogen etc vanish or return to the stock way? I play with kerbalism and thus community resource pack and just need the resources for it and making fuel

[Nuke]

i started working on something like this, but im glad to see somone beat me to the punch. my c# is not strong (the forced oop was starting to get to me). 

[Zorg]

Congrats on 1.0!

[JadeOfMaar]

3 hours ago, The-Doctor said:

If I delete RR in my jnsq folder will ore, nitrogen etc vanish or return to the stock way? I play with kerbalism and thus community resource pack and just need the resources for it and making fuel

That's right. Everything will return to their defaults/randomness. RR was made to help Kerbalism, though, except for the Ore thing. that it does.

1 hour ago, Nuke said:

i started working on something like this, but im glad to see somone beat me to the punch. my c# is not strong (the forced oop was starting to get to me). 

I'm glad you like. I'd like to see someone implement this in C# actually, but with the ability to escape heavily inflating the MM cache. That might be a massive undertaking and may need to be an entirely separate resource system.

1 minute ago, Zorg said:

Congrats on 1.0!

Thanks!

[infinite_monkey]

I have a slight problem when building rockets in the VAB, and I guess it's from RR, or maybe B9 part switch?

It seems, for stock tanks there is no preselected fuel type, resulting in 0 deltaV shown at the staging info, and nothing at all for that stage in KER. Tanks from Tundra Exploration seem to work, but there's a second issue: they work correctly only if there is no command pod. So a vessel consisting just of a TE tank and an engine works fine, but if a command pod is present BEFORE attaching the tank, KER shows the correct values, but stock staging info still shows 0.

[JadeOfMaar]

@infinite_monkey Chances are the stock tanks are defaulting to the Structural subtype. That's either my intention or one of those tiny harmless quirks or oddities that KSP has. If you can still choose from RR's options in the stock tanks then my only advice is to live with it, sorry. Personally, sometimes I like that the stock tanks default to Structural for the cases where I want to play with fuel other than LFO.

I tend to ignore the stock dV system as much as possible since it has a few false assumptions from Squad built into it which makes it useless or unreliable in some situations.

It's worth mentioning that Tundra Exploration and possibly Shangsheng Orbital now contain a config that changes some (if not all) of their engines to use Methalox if RR is detected. You may want to go into the respective rocket mod's Patches folder and delete their "MethaloxEngine" config file.

[infinite_monkey]

3 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

@infinite_monkeyI tend to ignore the stock dV system as much as possible since it has a few false assumptions from Squad built into it which makes it useless or unreliable in some situations.

It's worth mentioning that Tundra Exploration and possibly Shangsheng Orbital now contain a config that changes some (if not all) of their engines to use Methalox if RR is detected. You may want to go into the respective rocket mod's Patches folder and delete their "MethaloxEngine" config file.

Thanks for your explanation!

Yeah I realized that change to Methalox, I was quite surprised as I didn't install anything new at that time, just updated RR. Already deleted those configs.

[Lach_01298]

So I got a question, why do you use MetalOre in RR instead of MetallicOre which is already in CRP?

I know MetalOre is from EPL But I would think it would be better to make patches for ELP to use metallic ore than to add another equivalent resource to the game. There is already planetary resource definitions for metallic ore in RR.

[JadeOfMaar]

@Lach_01298 I use MetalOre because I'm a fan of EL and SimpleConstruction but not a fan of the USI mods and I never got into playing with Ground/Global Construction. From my knowledge, SimpleConstruction users tend to have very few other mods in their install so they would have no use for MetallicOre, meanwhile, EL's resources were defined at first by EL and not by CRP.

The resource placements for MetallicOre that are "already there" in RR are actually there now because I got a few requests to provide MetallicOre. Originally I did not have RR provide it and I saw this resource as the redundant one.

Tell me. What is your exact reason for needing EL to use MetallicOre? I can't promise I'll produce such patches as I haven't used any base-building mods in a very long time now.

[Lach_01298]

@JadeOfMaar Just curious and thought it would make more sense since CRP is a dependence and EPL isn't. Ultimately it's up to you.

Thanks for Responding.

[Dr. Jet]

Nice idea! I approve it. 

Just some advices. 

1) CO₂ is not something you want to store as liquid. EVER. It will need constant heating (30°) and too high pressure (heavy tanks). On the other hand SOLID form of CO₂ ("dry ice") is easily storeable, does not need any pressure holding at all and converts directly to gas when heated a little bit. 

2) You forgot CO₂ ice as a crustal resource. Martian ice caps consist of this mostly, exoplanets may have it too.

3) You are putting some ice-type resources to atmosphere. It's not that bad in terms of realism (snow, you know), but what exist as snow - can be obtained as gas from the same atmoshpere - concider it.

4) You may concider to use RealIsru for parts. I made some realistic-looking chemical reactors for it.

5) Concider to expand for some Manufactoring mod support (USI/MKS, Ground Construction or ELP). ISRU operations are boring when they are about fuel/breathing air alone.

6) Karbonite & Karborundum shoud disappear. Fantastic resources do not pair well with realistic ones.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Dr. Jet

[TimothyC]

On 10/2/2019 at 1:00 AM, Dr. Jet said:

1) CO₂ is not something you want to store as liquid. EVER. It will need constant heating (30°) and too high pressure (heavy tanks). On the other hand SOLID form of CO₂ ("dry ice") is easily storeable, does not need any pressure holding at all and converts directly to gas when heated a little bit.

Hello Dr. Jet. I was one of the people who brought forward to Jade data on NIMF (Nuclear rocket using Indigenous Martian Fuels). While you may be broadly correct that there are limited reasons for using Liquid CO₂ on Earth/Kerbin, the resource here is used as both a stepping stone in chemical processes, and as a fuel for nuclear engines. When using it for nuclear engines, you are going to want it as a liquid anyway, so it makes sense to simply compress it down and and store it as such, rather than freeze it, and then compress the gas that comes off when you need fuel. Furthermore, your temperatures are slightly off. Liquid CO₂ can exist between 217K and 304K while under pressure, which is not the same as maintaining it at 303K as you imply. I'd also note that as far as density goes, Liquid CO₂ is only about 30% less dense than dry ice, which makes it still workable for a lot of rocket applications (in game, the only other application is the production of methalox meaning that the difficulties in storing it are minimal relative to the added complexity of storing it as dry ice and then liquefying it on demand.

[The-Doctor]

Hey, so I see liquid methane as an option for some tanks and I'm interested in such, but I see non for the engines, is there actually liquid methane engines or is it more likely my end some other mod making it

[JadeOfMaar]

@The-Doctor Rational Resources' own clone of the NERV has an option to burn Methane (single propellant) but you'll not find any bundled Methalox engines. Those are up to the other mod makers to produce. The quickest ones to get are in @damonvv and @Nertea's mods:

NF Launch Vehicles at the NFT group thread

 

[Dr. Jet]

On 10/9/2019 at 4:04 AM, TimothyC said:

Hello Dr. Jet. I was one of the people who brought forward to Jade data on NIMF (Nuclear rocket using Indigenous Martian Fuels). While you may be broadly correct that there are limited reasons for using Liquid CO₂ on Earth/Kerbin, the resource here is used as both a stepping stone in chemical processes, and as a fuel for nuclear engines. When using it for nuclear engines, you are going to want it as a liquid anyway, so it makes sense to simply compress it down and and store it as such, rather than freeze it, and then compress the gas that comes off when you need fuel. Furthermore, your temperatures are slightly off. Liquid CO₂ can exist between 217K and 304K while under pressure, which is not the same as maintaining it at 303K as you imply. I'd also note that as far as density goes, Liquid CO₂ is only about 30% less dense than dry ice, which makes it still workable for a lot of rocket applications (in game, the only other application is the production of methalox meaning that the difficulties in storing it are minimal relative to the added complexity of storing it as dry ice and then liquefying it on demand.

For nuclear engines? Like RD-0410 and Nerva? Then you should know that RD-0410 was gas-fed and Nerva has exploded (test of 1959) because of liquid hydrogen evaporating too fast. Neither of those was ever concidered to be CO₂ fed. I'm not sure if it's even practical. 

For any practical usage like methane production, CO₂ is stored solid, used gaseous.

[TimothyC]

10 hours ago, Dr. Jet said:

For nuclear engines? Like RD-0410 and Nerva? Then you should know that RD-0410 was gas-fed and Nerva has exploded (test of 1959) because of liquid hydrogen evaporating too fast. Neither of those was ever concidered to be CO₂ fed. I'm not sure if it's even practical.

Non-hydrogen propellants for nuclear thermal engines were considered in the 1960s as a way of retaining long-term storability on deep space missions (mostly things like Ammonia). The idea died out as the NTR programs did. However, CO₂ as a propellant for nuclear thermal engines came back under consideration starting in the early 1990s with Zubrin's work Nuclear thermal rockets using indigenous extraterrestrial propellants. This work mostly focused on Mars and Titan, but included data for all kinds of liquid fuels in NTRs. The paper does also note that a nuclear engine using a propellant that is an oxidizer at high temperatures (water, carbon dioxide, ect) would have different fuel cladding needs that one that used a hydrogen based propellant (hydrogen, methane, ammonia), limiting single-engine utility for mars applications.

[panarchist]

13 hours ago, Dr. Jet said:

For nuclear engines? Like RD-0410 and Nerva? Then you should know that RD-0410 was gas-fed and Nerva has exploded (test of 1959) because of liquid hydrogen evaporating too fast. Neither of those was ever concidered to be CO₂ fed. I'm not sure if it's even practical. 

For any practical usage like methane production, CO₂ is stored solid, used gaseous.

Kind of cherry-picking your example, aren't you? The 1959 test of Kiwi A was the very first test, and if I am not mistaken, it didn't explode - it melted part of the core due to the moderator plates fracturing. NERVA NRX and XE were later, and neither of those failed despite exceeding their rated test conditions.

In any case,  you're right that none of those used liquid CO2 as a propellant. You're incorrect that for any practical usage it's stored solid and used gaseous. It's tru in many cases, but not in the beverage industry and not in fracking. Praxair is ramping up Liquid CO2 production to expand that offering to both industries, including a 450 ton/day plant opened in 2016. (as one example)

There's no reason to think that it wouldn't be used as a nuclear rocket propellant in liquid form for the same reasons other cryogenic propellants are used as liquids in NTR designs. The primary advantage being greater fuel flow per unit area in the feed cross-section. It may not be the most common means of delivery, but it's pretty certain to be one among many.

[todi]

 

On 9/18/2019 at 6:31 PM, JadeOfMaar said:

Split all added parts and active stock part modifications (except the experiment and the scanners) into their own mod, RationalResourcesParts. This allows RR itself to be a resource placement mod and absolutely nothing more, for those who want to bundle it or those who just don't want parts.

Would it be possible to also reflect this on ckan? That would make it a lot easier for other mods to depend on it. (e.g. see the discussion for Kerbalism here: https://github.com/Kerbalism/Kerbalism/issues/16#issuecomment-522243869)

edit: I just noticed that the version on ckan is already only the resource placement parts. It would be great to also add the parts mod

Edited October 23, 2019 by todi

[JadeOfMaar]

@todi I've responded to the Git issue and sent a request to CKAN about the parts package.