KSP2 map view in separate window

[DunaManiac]

10 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

@Master39

It just is not that widely asked for. Again 44% of respondents use multimonitor. That being said, you are right, this is a AA title, which means that the company will be pushing HARD on deadlines, which increases technical debt exponentially. Please watch that video I linked from shadowzone, he explains this far better than I can. I am not implying that your desire for this feature is invalid, I am clearly stating that it is not a feature that is game critical right NOW. I am sorry if this upsets you sir, but, the bottom line is, KSP2 is a product being designed to make Take Two money, and that means they will push their contracted sub designhouse to finish KSP2 as fast as they can. This will invariably lead to technical debt. Adding a feature to appease less than 45% of players at this point is ludicrous at best. Would it be nice to see AFTER the game is stable, polished, functioning nicely for ALL users in all the correct and intended ways? Absolutely sure. Is it a good idea to take what limited time the developers have RIGHT NOW to push a feature that again, LESS THAN 45% of respondents in the now 4 times linked poll consider using? NO, absolutely not, its absolutely inconsiderate. Its asking that the rest of us accept a lesser job on core features just to again appease less than 45% of people. No. I am by no means a programmer and even I can see the handwriting on the wall of just how impractical it would be. I get that you think its a good idea, I respect that you think that, its just that sadly, right now, youre wrong. I am sorry if I upset you, but, multimonitor support is not now, nor will it likely EVER be a CRITICAL feature needed to make the game work for 100% of its users. It just sadly isnt. Please do not assert that players who do not have a want or a need or the ability to make use of the feature be forced to accept the idea that there is a better than likely chance core feature developmental time will suffer at such a behest. I have absolutely nothing left to say on this. 

 

044907132020

45% is still a significant number. That would be like removing docking mechanics because most players don't know how and KSP lasted for a year and a half without it with no problems.

Edited July 13, 2020 by DunaManiac

[AlamoVampire]

@DunaManiac

I cant see it justifying diverting developmental time and resources away from critical features to support an optional feature. Especially during runup to release. Im sorry but thats just how it is. Yes some want it but given that less than 45% of respondents use it according to that poll, it just does not seem reasonable right now.
 

Docking as in your example is a bad example. It is a critical game function. At some point a player will need to dock. That is unavaiodable. Dumping a map view to a second monitor does NOT a critical feature make. It is, realistically speaking a 100% OPTIONAL function that would be best added post launch after the game stabilizes. With that said, I have nothing, 100% nothing left I feel I can contribute to this discussion.

183407132020

185007132020

Edited July 14, 2020 by AlamoVampire
190307132020

[pandaman]

4 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

a 100% OPTIONAL function that would be best added post launch after the game stabilizes.

Except that integrating it properly, from the outset, would avoid the problems associated with 'bolting it on' afterwards.  

A lot of KSP1s issues seem to be related to adding lots of features that were not even considered part of the game's scope when original development began.

KSP2 is able to learn from that and start afresh and build a lot of those things in ftom the start.  So it may even be the case that it is already 'in the pipeline', though I haven't seen any indication yet.  But nor do we know anything about multiplayer either, beyond that it is confirmed to be included in some form.

[AlamoVampire]

@pandaman

I really am tired of feeling like I am being forced to repeat myself. Less than 45% of respondents in the poll that has been linked what, 4 or 5 times now state they use multiple monitors. I am sorry Pandaman, but, the fact remains that multiple monitor support is an OPTION. Regardless of how I feel or how you feel when you strip it down to base facts, it is an OPTION. Right now, right now as the game is being built, especially right now in the middle of a world wide pandemic when time is even more limited, and given that companies have the nasty habit of demanding more and more and then demand that more and more even faster and faster the fact remains corners get cut. It cannot be helped. It is a fact of life. When corners get cut to save a few minutes or hours or a day of work to meet that deadline the company suddenly thinks it can demand more in less time, which mandates MORE corner cutting. Right now, right now, the fact remains that multiple monitor support just is NOT a mandatory feature, it is an optional feature, and as such it should needs must be considered down the road and not right now. I really am tired of feeling like I am being forced to repeat myself.

 

001407142020

[Vanamonde]

Anyway, before we get madder at each other, it might be nice to have a map view insert on the main display, however many monitors we might be using at the time. 

[AlamoVampire]

4 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

Anyway, before we get madder at each other, it might be nice to have a map view insert on the main display, however many monitors we might be using at the time. 

absolutely agree sir. i wish soo much that someone could ask the devs directly about this, but from what I can recall <please correct me if I am wrong> this sorta thing is either forum rule forbidden or more likely NDA locked? Its also why I am just going to go ahead and bow out from this erm discussion and see what time delivers us.

 

004107142020

[Gargamel]

6 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

absolutely agree sir. i wish soo much that someone could ask the devs directly about this, but from what I can recall <please correct me if I am wrong> this sorta thing is either forum rule forbidden or more likely NDA locked? Its also why I am just going to go ahead and bow out from this erm discussion and see what time delivers us.

 

004107142020

The devs do peruse the forums.  They are among us.   If they choose to respond to a thread, they will do so. 

[mattinoz]

On 7/15/2020 at 2:01 AM, linuxgurugamer said:

Actually, there is a lot more work involved than you might imagine.  Besides the coding work, there is UI development, QA of the UI, QA of the window, QA of the data being displayed in the window, etc.

Even something as "simple" as Telemachus is not;  I did a fairly deep dive into it last night on my coding stream, and there is a LOT more than you might expect.

You also have to consider the issue of performance.  Even though there are known ways to avoid performance issues, and threads, etc., it takes time to implement and time to test.

Time which, especially before the first release, is probably more profitable to invest in the main part of the game itself.  At most I would expect them to put in hooks so this can be added later

Most of that must already be dealt with for multi-player or even just the base game. Which the Dev's have committed to and have designed code from well before release for. So it is many ways leveraging that work to please more players/customers than just those who'll multi-player is goodness. The QA work would need to done anyway as a some point the map view appears on screen without other influences in the main window while the craft is under thrust in the physics thread operating out of view.

It sounds like staff enjoy QA, maybe to much on multi-player. 

Again threading and performance, Yes there are know ways and they will have had to design with them in mind. Indeed they have already suggested they have a "spacial scene graph" exists that manages the entirety of all objects in motion, sounds like map view would always be a UI to this information as it stands. While allowing that graph to send a small subset to the active physics bubble. Sounds a lot like 2 threads with cross-talk already factored in. Designing with this intent has to pay off for low end systems as well, just by thinking about maximizing the resources.

Telemachus had to graft into a system that didn't consider it should exist. Multiple views in KSP2 that has been designed to handle what has been promised is a very different situation. It's like Self-sizing table view cells iOS4 to iOS14 it could well be 1/100th code.

In marketing terms - blogs, streams and cinematic creations have sold the game far better than any marketing drives. Imagine how cool the videos will be with multiple views only limited in number to how good the machine is.

Yes not trivial but would seriously pay off to my mind.

 

[DunaManiac]

@Bej Kerman

On 7/15/2020 at 4:52 AM, AlamoVampire said:

it is an OPTIONAL feature that is wanted by less than 45%

 

[shdwlrd]

7 minutes ago, catloaf said:

Yes. This is exactly what we should have. Plus, people without a second monitor could still use the feature of they were willing to sacrifice screen area for the game.

Not much of a problem if you're lucky enough to have one of the newer curved wide screen monitors.

[Vanamonde]

The discussion of multiple monitor support has been split to its own thread.

[pandaman]

I would be in favour of a separate window for the Map view if possible.  Whether it's 'draggable' on to another monitor or not, which as @Vanamonde has illustrated, is actually separate issue.

 

[ShadowZone]

On 7/11/2020 at 4:35 AM, Redneck said:

I hope the KSP2 devs allows pc players to undock the map view and have it on a separate monitor or even have a web-based map view in a web browser.   

I no longer use two monitors, but I do use a monitor so wide I have KSP running 1440p and can have my browser open beside it. Would love to have the map view separate. However, this would even further increase the divide between console and PC. And console players have been treated very poorly regarding updates. Would hope to see KSP2 giving them more love or design the game in such a way that updates for them can get released easier.

But since KSP2 will have multiplayer, this opens up the idea of a "mission control" role in multiplayer. Players 1,2,3 can't access map view, Player 4 can only access map view and is in communication with the other three, coordinating them to rendezvous or tells them when to point their rockets where and how long to throttle etc.

Definitely would not be everybody's cup of tea but I could imagine it being fun when playing together.

 

Yes, every new feature adds potential new pitfalls in development. There's no way around it. That's why good product managers /product owners prioritize their backlog based on what will yield the highest impact on the market. We'll see whether or not this will make it.

But it's fun contemplating it and having a discussion around it

[Lewie]

On 7/31/2020 at 2:35 PM, ShadowZone said:

I no longer use two monitors, but I do use a monitor so wide I have KSP running 1440p and can have my browser open beside it. Would love to have the map view separate. However, this would even further increase the divide between console and PC. And console players have been treated very poorly regarding updates. Would hope to see KSP2 giving them more love or design the game in such a way that updates for them can get released easier.

But since KSP2 will have multiplayer, this opens up the idea of a "mission control" role in multiplayer. Players 1,2,3 can't access map view, Player 4 can only access map view and is in communication with the other three, coordinating them to rendezvous or tells them when to point their rockets where and how long to throttle etc.

Definitely would not be everybody's cup of tea but I could imagine it being fun when playing together.

 

Yes, every new feature adds potential new pitfalls in development. There's no way around it. That's why good product managers /product owners prioritize their backlog based on what will yield the highest impact on the market. We'll see whether or not this will make it.

But it's fun contemplating it and having a discussion around it

 Very well said! As a former console player, I am very glad to see that Shadowzone(!) addressed one of the biggest console issues. 

We all know it’s going to be an amazing game, and I can’t wait to see what abominations of nature @ShadowZone creates!

[Brofessional]

On 7/31/2020 at 2:35 PM, ShadowZone said:

I no longer use two monitors, but I do use a monitor so wide I have KSP running 1440p and can have my browser open beside it. Would love to have the map view separate. However, this would even further increase the divide between console and PC.

That's one more reason it should be browser-based/app-based. Not everyone has a second monitor, but virtually everyone has a phone or tablet these days.  Such functionality has already been done before on consoles with Fallout 4 and it's Pip-boy app.

[Redneck]

On 7/31/2020 at 2:35 PM, ShadowZone said:

I no longer use two monitors, but I do use a monitor so wide I have KSP running 1440p and can have my browser open beside it. Would love to have the map view separate. However, this would even further increase the divide between console and PC. And console players have been treated very poorly regarding updates. Would hope to see KSP2 giving them more love or design the game in such a way that updates for them can get released easier.

But since KSP2 will have multiplayer, this opens up the idea of a "mission control" role in multiplayer. Players 1,2,3 can't access map view, Player 4 can only access map view and is in communication with the other three, coordinating them to rendezvous or tells them when to point their rockets where and how long to throttle etc.

Definitely would not be everybody's cup of tea but I could imagine it being fun when playing together.

 

Yes, every new feature adds potential new pitfalls in development. There's no way around it. That's why good product managers /product owners prioritize their backlog based on what will yield the highest impact on the market. We'll see whether or not this will make it.

But it's fun contemplating it and having a discussion around it

i could care less about the console version. Why, after alllllllllll the trouble porting to console in KSP1, would they even, for a split second, consider KSP2 on console? Money! thats the only reason. It means nothing but trouble down the line. Ive said it before and ill say it again DONT DO IT!!!!!!!!

"mission control" If its web-based then anyone can simply goto player 4 web address (permissions) and all can see the same map and tracking and telemetry

If its web based you could have the map on a cell phone or tablet. All im saying is for people with one screen the map will look the same but if you have more than one screen give us the abilty to "pop-out" (undock/resize) the map and drag it to another screen. 

[ShadowZone]

3 hours ago, Redneck said:

i could care less about the console version. Why, after alllllllllll the trouble porting to console in KSP1, would they even, for a split second, consider KSP2 on console? Money! thats the only reason. It means nothing but trouble down the line. Ive said it before and ill say it again DONT DO IT!!!!!!!!

[...]

If it was about the money, they would go for a mobile game. Console market is almost 10 billlion dollars more than PC and mobile is twice that of PC (see below).

KSP 1 on console was a bad move because it had to be a port of a game that never was intended to be on console in the first place. If the developers are smart, they will lay the foundations for a less cumbersome conversion to consol for KSP 2. Especially since the upcoming console generation is a PC in fancy case.

I get a lot of comments per week by disappointed console players on my videos. And it really breaks my heart that there are people out there that paid money to enjoy the fun we have with KSP and can't have nearly the same experience. And no, "buy a PC instead" is not an option for many of them.

[Redneck]

4 hours ago, ShadowZone said:

If it was about the money, they would go for a mobile game. Console market is almost 10 billlion dollars more than PC and mobile is twice that of PC (see below).

KSP 1 on console was a bad move because it had to be a port of a game that never was intended to be on console in the first place. If the developers are smart, they will lay the foundations for a less cumbersome conversion to consol for KSP 2. Especially since the upcoming console generation is a PC in fancy case.

I get a lot of comments per week by disappointed console players on my videos. And it really breaks my heart that there are people out there that paid money to enjoy the fun we have with KSP and can't have nearly the same experience. And no, "buy a PC instead" is not an option for many of them.

i still think its a bad idea. And yes if you want to play the game a pc is always an option. Those consoles are not cheap and there is no modding. New Cell phones? those are not cheap either. So why is a pc not an option?

[catloaf]

14 minutes ago, Redneck said:

i still think its a bad idea. And yes if you want to play the game a pc is always an option. Those consoles are not cheap and there is no modding. New Cell phones? those are not cheap either. So why is a pc not an option?

Because if your going to buy a PC you want to spend at least 200 dollars so it turns on, and most people can't justify spending that much on a single game. The console version also has not been ported very well (based on others words no mine.) What would be truly amazing though and probably the closest thing we could get to a good ksp like game on console would be sr2 on console. The nav sphere would be better than wasdqe navball for console because it could.be controlled by the dpad, the generally simpler ui would be a much better fit for console and the fact that the game runs in mobile will make performance a non issue.

[Draco T stand-up guy]

On 8/11/2020 at 12:17 PM, catloaf said:

Because if your going to buy a PC you want to spend at least 200 dollars so it turns on, and most people can't justify spending that much on a single game.

Why would anybody be using a single game to justify buying a PC?

The PC does so much more than a console that I've never been able to understand why anyone would buy one as its simply a waste of money. Better off spending the same amount on a PC and be able to do more.

[Redneck]

I dont understand why people would be against a separate map window. If you dont want to use it then dont. Its that simple. You loose NOTHING! But why try to shoot down the idea for the rest of us that do want it? They did the same thing for ksp 1 when we mentioned multiplayer. If you dont like it then dont use it. Why is that concept so hard to comprehend? Does the idea of a separate map window ruin your day? Does it put you in a bad mood? What seems to be the problem?

[LoSBoL]

Multi monitor KSP2 would be the bomb! If there is any game that would benefit from multi monitor usage, it would be Kerbal Space program. And to those who think that they wouldn't like it, buy yourself a second hand 24" monitor for 20 bucks and try it, I bet most of you would get hooked. 

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by LoSBoL

[theJesuit]

3 hours ago, LoSBoL said:

Multi monitor KSP2 would be the bomb! If there is any game that would benefit from multi monitor usage, it would be Kerbal Space program. And to those who think that they wouldn't like it, buy yourself a second hand 24" monitor for 20 bucks and try it, I bet most of you would get hooked. 

 

You're making me jealous - and giving me ideas, not that the family would approved of two new monitors!

Peace.

[AmericanRocketryRambler]

I definitely agree, they should also put up a panel that shows map view in later stage command pods.