Kerbal Space Program 2 (not dying and getting a new owner) Hype Train.

[Stephensan]

its not about worth not for me at all. its about experinece of the game as a whole, modded, unmodded, it's about long term playing if the game crashes or misbehaves, even if we gave the game crashing 4 times in one day, its anywhere between 28 minutes to 80 minutes of waiting just for the game to load.. Its a matter of at what point does waiting for a game turn into a chore waiting for the game itself to be ready even on high end hardware for new users, even it its 4 minutes its 16 minutes

i doubt if anyone had to wait 20 minutes to turn on a car, unlock there phone screen, turn on their computer, use any electronics at all, it would be acceptable, even if we crunch it down to 7 minutes. (talking about the car one is different between actually warming up the car vs turning on the car)..

the old ksp 1 players will always (this includes me with the old) heck just older users for gaming in general will never see an issue for loading times cause we are acclimated, since that is what we dealt with, but new players will try play ksp

we dealt with IDE harddrives all the way to m.2 ssd's and computer parts that was flagship 10 year ago is now beyond below budget range parts. or even cpu's Intel Core i7-4790K, even a R5-3600 is double the performance of the CPU, and that CPU is getting considered bottom barrel new "beginner budget pc" status.

the older gamers will never ever see issues for loading times, but newer gamers will, the die hards will always play ksp 1 regardless of loading times, i have stopped due to wanting something better.

Just now, Lisias said:

How about waiting 12 months for having Science?

291 days.. 9 months 18~ days.. not 365 days, 12 months.

[Bej Kerman]

[snip]

19 hours ago, Lisias said:

How about waiting 12 months for having Science?

The "KSP 2 is bad therefore KSP 1 is good" card.

Edited May 20 by Vanamonde

[Lisias]

18 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

The "KSP 2 is bad therefore KSP 1 is good" card.

No.

KSP2 is failing on delivery fast content to be used, KSP¹ is failing on loading fast the content it's already delivered. Both are problems, no doubt.

However, Steam Charts is telling me that the lesser of the two evils is still KSP¹:

https://steamcharts.com/cmp/220200,954850

Right now, 2024-0519T22:22Z, there're 2286 concurrent KSP¹ players on Steam, while KSP2 is bittering at 340.

This means that a lot of people is willing to wait to load KSP¹ to play with the content it already have, and comparatively very few are willing to play KSP2 right now besides loading pretty fast the few content it have at this point.

Make no mistake - if KSP 1.13 would be launched with lighting fast loading times (without alienating the mods), you can bet your mouse it will be a huge success over 1.12.5. But loading fast content no one wants to play is... slightly less appealing.

This just reminded me a nice song I enjoyed in the past (as well the movie, by the way):

Spoiler

 

Going to nowhere fast is still going to nowhere.

 

 

[Stephensan]

14 minutes ago, Lisias said:

No.

KSP2 is failing on delivery content to be used, KSP¹ is failing on loading fast the content it's already delivered. Both are problems, no doubt.

However, Steam Charts is telling me that the lesser of he two evils is still KSP¹:

https://steamcharts.com/cmp/220200,954850

Right now, 2024-0519T22:22Z, there're 2286 concurrent KSP¹ players on Steam, while KSP2 is bittering at 340.

This means that a lot of people is willing to wait to load KSP¹ to play with the content it already have, and very few are willing to play KSP2 right now besides loading pretty fast the few content it have at this point.

Make no mistake - if KSP 1.13 would be launched with lighting fast loading times (without alienating the mods), you can bet your mouse it will be a huge success. But loading fast content no one wants to play is... slightly less appealing.

This just reminded me a nice song I enjoyed in the past (as well the movie, by the way):

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Going to nowhere fast is still going to nowhere.

 

 

POV, now hear me out

• when game launches poorly almost nothing runs on it, it gets mass hate due to the "game being unplayable and nothing that we was promised"
• perception of it being as bad since launch still looms in the air when it has had a lot of fixing and is in state that would be considered a "playable state"
• nearly 1000+ bugs have been fixed to make it to a almost complete playable state besides a few large bugs, and smaller bugs
• FS! came out and gave users a near parity of science of another game but in its own game form
• Communication is slow, development cycle slowed down compared to last year and no new bug updates since the last one just nearly after FS!
• Players start to leave due to no bug updates nor content update, and the communication slowly going to a suffocation silence
• the company that is paying for devs does a warn on the same state and location saying 70 people will lose there jobs (same amount from IG)
• no communication ahem from the ig TO THIS DAY STILL ZERO COMMUNICATION  either due to being on a gag order, or not having information
• Game gets massive downvoted tell people to run away due to game being canceled 

 

vs

• Returning KSP 1 players that played ksp 1 before ksp 2/ksp 1 players that just play ksp 1 never played ksp 2 and (i told you so) it..

 

crazy that its low.

 

almost as if one had a rocky start and the other one is 10~ years old

Edited May 19 by Stephensan

[Bej Kerman]

30 minutes ago, Lisias said:

No.

KSP2 is failing on delivery fast content to be used, KSP¹ is failing on loading fast the content it's already delivered. Both are problems, no doubt.

However, Steam Charts is telling me that the lesser of the two evils is still KSP¹:

https://steamcharts.com/cmp/220200,954850

Right now, 2024-0519T22:22Z, there're 2286 concurrent KSP¹ players on Steam, while KSP2 is bittering at 340.

This means that a lot of people is willing to wait to load KSP¹ to play with the content it already have, and comparatively very few are willing to play KSP2 right now besides loading pretty fast the few content it have at this point.

Make no mistake - if KSP 1.13 would be launched with lighting fast loading times (without alienating the mods), you can bet your mouse it will be a huge success over 1.12.5. But loading fast content no one wants to play is... slightly less appealing.

This just reminded me a nice song I enjoyed in the past (as well the movie, by the way):

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Going to nowhere fast is still going to nowhere.

 

 

Hear me out, "the lesser of the two evils" is still an evil and Squad doesn't get a free pass because of an unrelated dev team.

[Lisias]

18 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Hear me out, "the lesser of the two evils" is still an evil and Squad doesn't get a free pass because of an unrelated dev team.

Agreed. But where is the Knight on a White Horse to save the day? (under EULA and Forum Rules, of course)

Insisting in how KSP¹ is slow is meaningless without understanding why people still prefer to load their preferred content slowly then anything else faster. (hint: preferred content)

Right now, complaining on how KSP¹ is slow to load things is beating a dead horse. We don't know if KSP2 will still be developed, what hope should one have about KSP¹ having its bugs and weaknesses ironed out?

Another detail you are missing is that Squad already had the free pass and used it. They walked. There's nothing else to be done or said, it's a done deal.

So, unless you think that T2 could hire Squad again to retake KSP development, I'm really failing to reach you on this subject.

[snip]

Edited May 20 by Vanamonde
Tyops, as usulla...

[Ker Ball One]

2 hours ago, Stephensan said:

i doubt if anyone had to wait 20 minutes to turn on a car, unlock there phone screen, turn on their computer, use any electronics at all, it would be acceptable, even if we crunch it down to 7 minutes. (talking about the car one is different between actually warming up the car vs turning on the car)..

I don't know.  Maybe I'm a glutton for punishment, but I think it adds to the realism.  I play with a lot of mods, and with a focus on realism (kerbalism, KCT, etc.) and with long loading times I just pretend Kerbals are commuting to work, or there's a bunch of safety checklists and such.

[TickleMyMary]

Not sure what people are running to get such long load times... I run around 170 mods and I'm looking at KSC in less than 3 minutes from running the game.

18 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Squad doesn't get a free pass because of an unrelated dev team.

And Intercept don't get to finish their game... Never mind a free pass!

I know you have an uncomfortable stick for people who say that KSP is better than KSP2, but, it really is a superior game as it stands... Squad built the game but the community made it what it is, anger isn't going to change peoples opinions or get this damned game finished.

[snip]

Edited May 20 by Vanamonde

[Lisias]

[snip]

 

15 hours ago, TickleMyMary said:

Squad built the game but the community made it what it is

Which Squad, the one before the exodus after KSP 1.1.3, or the new dev team that assumed development on 1.2.0?

Besides sharing the same employer, there's nothing else connecting these two teams. It's like they would be two completely different companies sharing the name and administration.

It's safe to declare that KSP (the franchise) had, until this moment, 4 different Companies developing it:

1. Squad before the 1.2 times
2. Squad from 1.2 to 1.12.5 times
3. Star.Theory
4. Intercept Games

 

15 hours ago, TickleMyMary said:

anger isn't going to change peoples opinions or get this damned game finished.

Agreed. Being the reason I addressed them about my failure on reaching them, implicitly asking for the development of the argument.

You don't put a fire down with more gasoline.

[snip]

 

Edited May 20 by Vanamonde
post edit

[hendrack]

7 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

"7 minutes < 20 minutes" isn't gonna convince anyone that anything longer than 30 seconds is worth waiting

Bold of you to assume what mileage other players have. Beside that, I was trying to be helpful, nothing else.

[GGG-GoodGuyGreg]

6 hours ago, TickleMyMary said:

Not sure what people are running to get such long load times... I run around 170 mods and I'm looking at KSC in less than 3 minutes from running the game.

And Intercept don't get to finish their game... Never mind a free pass!

I know you have an uncomfortable stick for people who say that KSP is better than KSP2, but, it really is a superior game as it stands... Squad built the game but the community made it what it is, anger isn't going to change peoples opinions or get this damned game finished.

I don't get why this is still up for debate.

KSP is 13 years old game that's was updated for many years constantly, by a competent team that loved the game and LISTENED to user feedback, and is today fully featured compared to an unfinished project that only got one lackluster milestone update out of the 6 that were planned (not counting the 7th that was alluded to) so it's unfinished and slow to update even for an EA. I hope people who say are a scam are wrong but today it's pretty hard to argue with them.

The fact that such an old game still has life in it and currently 8x more players play it than this newest and greatest game, should close the argument.

Don't know what is it there to discuss just because a minority of the player base boot up the game to do not that much in it, over and over again. I'm happy for them, but the reality is, objectively KSP1 > KSP2.

The worrying part is Juno New Origins is slowly rising and might one day surpass KSP2, especially with everyone at IG being so quiet and unproductive. https://steamcharts.com/cmp/220200,954850,870200

Edited May 20 by GGG-GoodGuyGreg

[Vanamonde]

Lots of personal remarks removed. Stay on-topic and polite, please. 

[Bej Kerman]

22 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I'm not sure why people are irritated over load times.  I guess I grew up before the age of instant gratification?

There should be a new rule of the internet that addresses everything being the fault of short attention spans

[Fizwalker]

On 5/19/2024 at 7:04 PM, Bej Kerman said:

Hear me out, "the lesser of the two evils" is still an evil and Squad doesn't get a free pass because of an unrelated dev team.

Squad doesn't get a free pass for what, exactly? Squad wasn't a games developer when Harvester created the game.... Nearly 13 years ago.

[TwoCalories]

On 5/20/2024 at 12:59 AM, GGG-GoodGuyGreg said:

The worrying part is Juno New Origins is slowly rising and might one day surpass KSP2, especially with everyone at IG being so quiet and unproductive. https://steamcharts.com/cmp/220200,954850,870200

At least all the KSP players will know which was the original and which was the knockoff...

***

"Radio silence" is a term I hate to describe KSP2's dev team, but there's really no other way to explain what's going on.

As of when I'm writing this, it is May 24th, 2024. The last time Nate Simpson logged on the forums was April 26th. The last time Nerdy_Mike posted was April 25th. The last post by KSP2's Twitter was on May 1st. That tweet said "We're still hard at work on KSP2. We'll talk more when we can." The last Discord update from a dev was on May 1st as well, promising the Discord and Forums would remain active. The last post by any developer (as far as I know) was CM Dakota who said:

"Creating that human connection has always been one of the biggest goals of mine as a CM. Fans of the game only become fans of the studio by developing that sort of connection with the team. In my opinion, too many CMs act as some kind of wizard behind the curtain, when really a CM should just feel like another community member.

Glad to hear I left an impression and kept you engaged with the community. Thanks for playing our game"

Nothing more since then.

Take-Two is claiming to not have shuttered Intercept Games, but seeing as Take-Two has some much bigger games under its belt that are also much more profitable from a "big-shot corporation" standpoint, it's not unlikely that KSP2's devs took a big hit at best.

Just look at the numbers comparing some of T2's games to KSP2: Per Steam Charts for April, GTA V had an average of 95,401 players. Read Dead Redemption 2 had an average of 17,732 players. And KSP2 had a peak count of 903.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this. If Intercept Games is shuttered, there's not much chance T2's going to make a new studio, because that would be Studio #3 after Star Theory and Intercept. Not to mention that KSP2 is not even close to their more successful games. Even if Intercept Games wasn't shuttered, they had to have been hit hard by the layoffs. Hell, so of the Day 1 devs may even be gone now. KSP2 may never be what it would have.

I feel like I've come off as one of the more optimistic about KSP2, but this is probably the darkest time of KSP2's development ever. It pains me, but KSP2 is probably over. This is backed up partially by speculation though, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt.

[Tony Tony Chopper]

44 minutes ago, TwoCalories said:

 The last post by any developer (as far as I know) was CM Dakota who said:

"Creating that human connection has always been one of the biggest goals of mine as a CM. Fans of the game only become fans of the studio by developing that sort of connection with the team. In my opinion, too many CMs act as some kind of wizard behind the curtain, when really a CM should just feel like another community member.

Glad to hear I left an impression and kept you engaged with the community. Thanks for playing our game"

You missed out something meaningful which I would count as answers as well: Two likes came to happen after your quote. One of which leads to this post:

Yeah,..I see it as agreement. It doesn't really left room for more interpretation, but speculate for yourself. However, It doesn't really contradict with your post anyway. Just wanted to point that out.

[TwoCalories]

3 hours ago, Tony Tony Chopper said:

Yeah,..I see it as agreement. It doesn't really left room for more interpretation, but speculate for yourself. However, It doesn't really contradict with your post anyway. Just wanted to point that out.

So even the devs are passively speaking up for themselves now. This whole situation honestly makes me feel really sad.

[Jacke]

On 5/20/2024 at 7:59 AM, GGG-GoodGuyGreg said:

The worrying part is Juno New Origins is slowly rising and might one day surpass KSP2, especially with everyone at IG being so quiet and unproductive. https://steamcharts.com/cmp/220200,954850,870200

This was posted on Monday, when things were a bit more uncertain.  But even then, there was enough certainty.  And today, after @ShadowZone's Friday video, it's painfully clear.  Those who haven't watched it should do so.

Intercept Games is not being quiet and unproductive.  There is no one left at Intercept Games.  The previous IG staff remaining employed are now all likely transferred to Private Division.  There isn't enough staff to do much more than check the recent KSP 2 work and push out updates to Steam.  Everyone else has been sent home because they are now laid out, just technically employed until the end of June, but all now looking for new employment.  What has been horrible communication is now no real communication.

Also from @ShadowZone's video, the consensus of people who know the industry and software development, looking at what is now known about what went on with KSP 2, is that the KSP 2 code was wrongly created and developed.  There is little worth salvaging besides some of the art assets.  If Take-Two ever starts development again on KSP 2, the new studio (who should have proper staff with the needed skills) should start from scratch with a proper specification.  They will waste less time.

What's more likely is that Take-Two at some time in the future will have someone develop another simpler game using the Kerbals to start recouping the losses that Take-Two has had up to now.

KSP 2 is effectively a dead project.

[Lisias]

7 minutes ago, Jacke said:

What's more likely is that Take-Two at some time in the future will have someone develop another simpler game using the Kerbals to start recouping the losses that Take-Two has had up to now.

Besides buggy and archaic, there's enough juice on KSP¹'s code base to be used on such small sidekicks.

You know, KSP 1.2.2 in 32 bits is light enough to run fine on my previous mobile phone - that I didn't managed to get rid because nobody wanted it even for free.

[Scarecrow71]

And Matt Lowne is campaigning for people in the EU to start asking for refunds.  Dang.

https://x.com/Matt_Lowne/status/1795201383416705137?t=qIuGWvJC4imnuwv-PxofTA&s=19

[Dakitess]

I'll definitely try to get a refund, then.

[Lisias]

17 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

And Matt Lowne is campaigning for people in the EU to start asking for refunds.  Dang.

https://x.com/Matt_Lowne/status/1795201383416705137?t=qIuGWvJC4imnuwv-PxofTA&s=19

From the consumer's rights point of view, I agree with him.

But there's something else to consider: imagine I'm a youtuber that earnt some money on videos about KSP2 (completely unrelated subject... ). If this dude ask for a refund, they are still entitled to have their videos using KSP2 being published and monetized?

After all, any agreement about the subject had ceased to exist with the refund.

[PDCWolf]

7 minutes ago, Lisias said:

From the consumer's rights point of view, I agree with him.

But there's something else to consider: imagine I'm a youtuber that earnt some money on videos about KSP2 (completely unrelated subject... ). If this dude ask for a refund, they are still entitled to have their videos using KSP2 being published and monetized?

After all, any agreement about the subject had ceased to exist with the refund.

KSP2's EULA have this nasty bit, which has never been put into practice AFAIK:

Quote

USER CREATED CONTENT: The Software may allow you to create content, including, but not limited to, a gameplay map, scenario, screenshot, car design, character, item, or video of your game play. In exchange for use of the Software, and to the extent that your contributions through use of the Software give rise to any copyright interest, you hereby grant Licensor an exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, fully transferable, and sub-licensable worldwide right and license to use your contributions in any way and for any purpose in connection with the Software and related goods and services, including, but not limited to, the rights to reproduce, copy, adapt, modify, perform, display, publish, broadcast, transmit, or otherwise communicate to the public by any means whether now known or unknown and distribute your contributions without any further notice or compensation to you of any kind for the whole duration of protection granted to intellectual property rights by applicable laws and international conventions. You hereby waive and agree never to assert any moral rights of paternity, publication, reputation, or attribution with respect to Licensor's and other players' use and enjoyment of such assets in connection with the Software and related goods and services under applicable law. This license grant to Licensor, and terms above regarding any applicable moral rights, will survive any termination of this Agreement.

As you can see, monetary benefit from these works is not regulated by the EULA, and neither is production of those when you haven't acquired the right to play the game. After the refund, Matt would've already ceded his rights to those works for T2/PD to use as they see fit, yet since monetization was never regulated, they can't do nothing about it. On the other hand, youtube being youtube, if T2 hits the claim button, they'll oblige, and I doubt Matt would go legal against them.

As a personal remark: Companies that think they own gameplay videos or livestreams are cancer. EULAs regulating what I do with a product I purchased beyond copying it to re-sell should be illegal, and in most civilized countries they tend to be.

[Lisias]

2 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

KSP2's EULA have this nasty bit, which has never been put into practice AFAIK:

The automatic grant of right may not apply to him - it surely doesn't apply to me, my legislation considers null and void any terms of copyright granting without a formal agreement from the copyright holder - i.e., I need to formally agree on granting any rights from stuff I made, mass contracts don't have this power here about this subject. Until I say in a legal bounding way "I'm granting you such rights", TT2 doesn't have any no matter what the EULA says.

So, if the automatic grant of rights is null and void for me, the whole clause should be. And so I think I would lose the right to keep exploring the IP after a refund.

I doubt Europe (or more specifically, England) doesn't have any similar legislation about and, so, perhaps this may apply to European (and British) users.

2 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

As a personal remark: Companies that think they own gameplay videos or livestreams are cancer. EULAs regulating what I do with a product I purchased beyond copying it to re-sell should be illegal, and in most civilized countries they tend to be.

I couldn't agree more. Fortunately for me, my Country's legislators also do.

2 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

On the other hand, youtube being youtube, if T2 hits the claim button, they'll oblige, and I doubt Matt would go legal against them.

Go Rumble!

Edited May 28 by Lisias
Entertaining grammars made slightely less entertaining...

[kerbiloid]

On 5/20/2024 at 2:04 AM, Bej Kerman said:

Hear me out, "the lesser of the two evils" is still an evil

Sometimes there is just one available evil to suffer with/from.

While another evil is not even an evil to be named evil. A misevil.

  

On 5/28/2024 at 7:47 PM, Lisias said:

imagine I'm a youtuber that earnt some money on videos about KSP2 (completely unrelated subject... ). If this dude ask for a refund, they are still entitled to have their videos using KSP2 being published and monetized?

Youtube should add "Unsee" button.

Edited June 1 by kerbiloid