KSP2 EA Grand Discussion Thread.

[PDCWolf]

Just now, MechBFP said:

Are these PFDs mounted right on the cockpit glass so they obstruct the pilots view?

In the windshield or HMDs you get a projected transparent HUD, speaking volumes of having the information where you need and not where it looks pretty and "doesn't obstruct your view". The information doesn't obstruct the view, it is part of the view, but hey, I'm the uneducated person.

You wouldn't say the cockpit obstructs your vision.

Edited November 9, 2023 by PDCWolf

[Vanamonde]

A number of personal comments have been removed. Dial down the outrage, please. 

[MechBFP]

56 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

In the windshield or HMDs you get a projected transparent HUD, speaking volumes of having the information where you need and not where it looks pretty and "doesn't obstruct your view". The information doesn't obstruct the view, it is part of the view, but hey, I'm the uneducated person.

You wouldn't say the cockpit obstructs your vision.

I would be curious what a transparent navball in the middle would feel like.

[Superfluous J]

2 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Ok, so if the major argument is viewability of the screen, and that you need to see the ship when docking and/or landing...why not just hit F2 during these situations?

Becasue I'm looking at both. I need to see the navball (and other ui elements) AND the bottom of the craft at the same time. Unless you're suggesting I toggle with F2 back and forth so I can see the navball, then the ship. Not only would that be jarring, but it'd add yet another key to the 16 or so that I may need to hit at any time.

2 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Unless during landing you say that you are focused on distance to the ground, or in either situation you need to be focused on speed....in which case you aren't really looking at the ship, are you?

I am focused on speed, distance to the ground (which in the UI is usually wrong because it's not the distance until I land, but the distance until - if I crashed - the pod would hit the ground), horizontal velocity, ground slope, and possibly the location of things on the ground I'm landing next to or (if I'm feeling especially daring) on top of.

2 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Also, why left and not right?  Why bottom left and not top left?  What is the argument for it being left and not right, or bottom and not top?

Personally, I tried it both ways and liked left better. I tried right first, so it's not just "I did it first so liked it most" but I can't tell you why I just do. I also tried it midway between center and edges, and didn't like that either.

Regarding top and bottom, I like my UI elements on the bottom. No clue why.

Regarding having the option, yes every UI element should be moveable. I've not seen anybody argue against that.

33 minutes ago, MechBFP said:

I would be curious what a transparent navball in the middle would feel like.

It feels great.

 

[Dakota]

6 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Posted on Facebook by the devs.  IVA shot.  Notice where the instrument panel is.

(1) Video | Facebook

There's context on the social posts, but this isn't actual IVA. It's the capture camera clipped into the cockpit.

[MechBFP]

46 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

It feels great.

That is definitely not what I was meaning, I meant a literally transparent navball. 
 

However the idea of augmented reality in game is intriguing. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by MechBFP

[Wheehaw Kerman]

6 hours ago, Meecrob said:

You can argue me all you want, this isn't my opinion. There is a saying in aviation: learn from others; you don't have enough lives to make enough mistakes to learn from experience yourself"

I get that your personal preference is the navball on the side, I'm simply telling you the real-life reason navballs are shoved in your face.

Thinking about it, though, if real life planes were piloted in third person view, would they put their navball where it got in the way when landing?

I immediately shifted the navball off to the left in KSP1 as soon as Squad made that possible.  IMO it’s optimally placed in KSP2.

[PDCWolf]

Just now, Wheehaw Kerman said:

Thinking about it, though, if real life planes were piloted in third person view, would they put their navball where it got in the way when landing?

I immediately shifted the navball off to the left in KSP1 as soon as Squad made that possible.  IMO it’s optimally placed in KSP2.

You'd probably get a transparent hud like on any HMD. In fact, it's been the biggest interest to keep everything as close to center as possible so the pilot can read stuff and make out details from peripheral or central vision. Particularly, the F35 overlays the zoomed in images from targeting pods right in front of your vision.

 

[Wheehaw Kerman]

18 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

You'd probably get a transparent hud like on any HMD. In fact, it's been the biggest interest to keep everything as close to center as possible so the pilot can read stuff and make out details from peripheral or central vision. Particularly, the F35 overlays the zoomed in images from targeting pods right in front of your vision.

 

Something like that would be interesting to try - IIRC that Juno/Simple Rockets does something similar, albeit simplified in the extreme.  Regardless, barring a HUD, the correct location for the navball in KSP2 is going to be “not concealing the spacecraft but easily read”.  IMHO the KSP2 navball is fine - they basically put it exactly where I wanted it.  The burn timer, OTOH, is a great idea that needs more detail.

 

[Periple]

I think it'd be great if we could move the UI elements where we want them!

Personally I'm fine with the positioning as it is, but my biggest issue with the UI right now is readability -- the pixelated fonts affect that adversely especially at screen resolutions that aren't "native" for the design, the colors lack contrast (it's not easy to tell at a glance whether SAS is on or off and too many of the markers on the navball look same-y and sometimes don't contrast enough with the navball itself), and there's also too much visual noise, little labels and other flourishes that detract from that.

[The Aziz]

7 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

Regarding top and bottom, I like my UI elements on the bottom. No clue why.

Because wherever you look, the crucial instruments are on the bottom. Games, with some exceptions, ground vehicles, aircraft... You rarely have to look up for information unless you're flying a 747 or something of this size where it has a bunch of switches up there.

53 minutes ago, Periple said:

pixelated fonts affect that adversely especially at screen resolutions that aren't "native" for the design

We've talked about this but... If you're a UI designer and in 2023 you make UI not fit natively to 1920x1080 resolution, you're gone from business.

[Periple]

17 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

We've talked about this but... If you're a UI designer and in 2023 you make UI not fit natively to 1920x1080 resolution, you're gone from business.

I'd go a step further than that, if you don't make it scale gracefully between 720p, 1080p, 1440p, 4K, and widescreen, you need to up your game. 

Even 720p is super necessary for low-end machines and potential tablet/handheld ports!

[Vl3d]

Guys make a separate thread about the NavBall placement and just say "we want to be able to move it".

[LoSBoL]

5 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

Guys make a separate thread about the NavBall placement and just say "we want to be able to move it".

No need, it's already been acknowledged in the very first AMA.

Quote

This is a good example of an area that’s being developed iteratively. I think the first goal is to give players the ability to rescale the flight HUD, but making it modular and giving both players and modders more control over how things look is a key priority for the UX/UI team.

We've already gotten the scalability since, and in the future we can place it everywhere we want to, even right in the very center of the screen to please everyone.

[LoSBoL]

1 hour ago, Periple said:

I'd go a step further than that, if you don't make it scale gracefully between 720p, 1080p, 1440p, 4K, and widescreen, you need to up your game. 

Even 720p is super necessary for low-end machines and potential tablet/handheld ports!

They got a long way to go, open the VAB and a part description tab, the part manager and a procedural wing PAW. This game doesn't seem to be developed for 16:9 but for at least 21:9.

[Meecrob]

14 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

Id love to see a challenge where players put craft paper over their entire monitor except the nav ball and try to land on the Mun. 

I can show you, gimme a few days though, I'm a bit busy at the moment.

[EugenPru]

On 11/9/2023 at 12:55 PM, Sans said:

My deer Eugen Pru,

Don't you know Squad isn't developing KSP 2 ?

If they can fix the bugs and add the missing features, then KSP 2 could be a great game.

[Deddly]

Some content removed. Be nice 

[Meecrob]

7 hours ago, The Aziz said:

Because wherever you look, the crucial instruments are on the bottom. Games, with some exceptions, ground vehicles, aircraft... You rarely have to look up for information unless you're flying a 747 or something of this size where it has a bunch of switches up there.

I think an interplanetary rocket qualifies as a "747 or something of that size."

6 hours ago, Vl3d said:

Guys make a separate thread about the NavBall placement and just say "we want to be able to move it".

Why don't you just scroll past our discussion? This is literally the KSP2 Grand Discussion Thread, afterall.

[Bej Kerman]

3 hours ago, Meecrob said:

18 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Except it's not bad.

Except it is!

It's fine when it's in the left corner, since it's in the left corner there is no problem.

[Scarecrow71]

18 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

It's fine when it's in the left corner, since it's in the left corner there is no problem.

That's a personal opinion, though, and not representative of what everyone thinks.  If you think it being in the left corner is fantastic, that's awesome.  But please understand that not all of us like it that way, and we would like at least an option to move it where it would make sense to us.

[Bej Kerman]

2 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

21 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

It's fine when it's in the left corner, since it's in the left corner there is no problem.

That's a personal opinion, though, and not representative of what everyone thinks.  If you think it being in the left corner is fantastic, that's awesome.  But please understand that not all of us like it that way, and we would like at least an option to move it where it would make sense to us.

Sounds fine to me.

[Guest]

Sometimes, when talking about how certain features that were one way in KSP1, it feels like being in a forum in which all users have hundreds if not thousands of hours spent in learning how to speedrun Doom with a Guitar Hero Controller and rudder pedals.

And, yes, their opinion that that's the most optimal way, for them, to play Doom is entirely valid, after all that trying a Mouse and Keyboard would feel alien to them. But maybe it's also time to consider that all those hours of developing a muscle memory / habit are a thing, and that, regardless of opinion, there's an objectively optimal setup and that that one should be the default, regardless of how it was in the previous title. 

 

Now, I would love to see some experiments with holographic HUDs, I love to use them in VTOL VR, and ironically, my most common use of the "see through the craft" HMD function on VTOL Planes is to look past the instrument panel to see where I'm landing.  

Edited November 11, 2023 by Master39

[AlizeInSpace]

I'm disabled. I have to sit 8 feet from my monitor. Therefore, I use a very large monitor. The Navball being in the left corner makes it so that's the only thing I get to see. [snip] My field of view is just the Navball. My rocket is somewhere off in the corner of my vision. I just want the ability to move it back to its proper spot and shrink it. 9 months in and this still isn't an option. I just really want my money back. I have zero faith in the devs to deliver any accessibility features let alone actual improvements over KSP 1. I'm now watching members of the community say my eyes should just work. [snip] At this point. I'm done with this game and Intercept. [snip] So, that's it. My faith is gone. I'll see ya all in KSP 1. At least I can see my rockets fly.

 

P.S. As a side note. After 20k hours of KSP 1 Navball being in the center, it never once got in the way of anything. You can move the camera for a reason folks.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Snark
Redacted by moderator

[PDCWolf]

14 hours ago, Master39 said:

Sometimes, when talking about how certain features that were one way in KSP1, it feels like being in a forum in which all users have hundreds if not thousands of hours spent in learning how to speedrun Doom with a Guitar Hero Controller and rudder pedals.

And, yes, their opinion that that's the most optimal way, for them, to play Doom is entirely valid, after all that trying a Mouse and Keyboard would feel alien to them. But maybe it's also time to consider that all those hours of developing a muscle memory / habit are a thing, and that, regardless of opinion, there's an objectively optimal setup and that that one should be the default, regardless of how it was in the previous title.

This is such a lousy argument, well, not even an argument but a logical fallacy. Like sure, there's people who have played thousands of hours of nothing but KSP1. I'm pretty sure they're not either the majority, or even the majority that support the navball in the middle. You're not even attacking the argument of having the navball in the middle, you're straight up attacking the person, which has so far been the only argument for the navball on the side:

• "You're uneducated"
• "You're nostalgic"
• "You're too used to how it was"
• "You dislike change"

So far, the only somewhat valid argument is that it obstructs the view, which is much more dependent on how badly designed and wasteful of space the navball is than anything else.

As for you having to use see-through to land, I don't know how VTOL VR manages its fantasy planes, but IRL you have a hud mode that tells you the AoA to maintain, and your velocity path, and every modern airliner is pretty much designed to being able to land with 0 visibility, which is why you get a flight director that hooks to the ILS. Now, before this is yet again misconstrued as meaning something else and returned as an attack on my person: No, I'm not saying the navball should cover everything and everyone should fly IFR, I'm saying we should get properly designed, compact and informative-at-a-glance tools and be told how to use them properly.

Finally, there are people with Visual Field Deficits, Focus Deficits, and so on, and they'd definitely appreciate the navball in the middle, as looking to the side (made worse depending on monitor size and resolution) means not seeing the rocket anymore.