You promised us communication, where is it?

[MechBFP]

55 minutes ago, robgraham said:

The issue is that all we seem to get about anything are excuses rather than fixes. Like Rayne I don't and won't go to yet another discord for answers. I have to sit on way to many of them as it is, but the lack of communication and what communication does go out is bad, Like I thought honestly that Frontier Development had set my bar of 'can't be any worse than' after their handling of Elite Dangerous over the years but ever since the "We are cutting back post" things here have gotten worse.

It shouldn't be a big ask for Community Managers to take 5-10 minutes out of a week to get a round up of what is going on and be able to communicate it, I mean it's part of your job. It shoulnd't be 7 months in that we still have zup, nada, no idea of when the updates for features that were promised to be 'rapidly put out' are and some how the few video's that have been released by you all don't fill me with confidence of late either, as core fundimental items that should have been dealt with before EA are being tossed around like 'well hey we got 50$USD from these suckers we are living on their dime now" and while that might not be what is intended it is how it feels.

While I want to say congrats to Mike for his recent personal events, as a customer and a consumer at the same time those personal events should not have the roll on impact that communication and updates with the community fall behind. Especially given that it's not like what has happened was 'sudden' either it was kinda going to happen and based at least roughly on how events go you've had as a company 7 months to plan for 'fixes' so to be 'hiring' at the point when it becomes a problem kinda makes me even less confident in how things are being ran.

There are a thousand and one ways that you all as a company could be communicating better, there are thousands of examples heck one of the easiest would be to do something as simple as this https://trello.com/b/HsMiJggJ/heatblur-public-roadmap and that btw is from a very small developer, but I've seen larger companies do the same. 

But the lack of comms and then the trickle of well we shared some ss's or a talk wtih a dev that's communications isn't.  7 months and we have 0 featuers from the Roadmap, we don't even have all the proper features that were promised to release 'quickly after launch'. And what's worse Community Managers whom won't actually go to bat to get those answers it seems.

 

One thing I'll say about Rayne is that while we might have butted heads on the old forums once or twice she at least always did her best to get the community answers.

Ya can’t really disagree with any of this. Every month that ticks by with minimal progress continues to erode my patience. I understand that fixing bugs takes time, but the fact that there is so much that needs fixing doesn’t exactly breed confidence in the processes over there.

I have said this before but the longer it takes to release roadmap content the higher my expectations are going to be when it comes out, and that is probably not going to be a good thing for them given how things appear to be going. 

[Superfluous J]

1 hour ago, robgraham said:

It shouldn't be a big ask for Community Managers to take 5-10 minutes out of a week to get a round up of what is going on and be able to communicate it

I can't speak for the Community Managers here, but I am tasked with the unfortunate job of communicating with customers in my work and one thing I can tell you, there is ZERO chance the job will take 5-10 minutes.

You know those entries on the bug report thing they post, where there is literally nothing in the box? That information probably took more than 10 minutes to get.

Edited October 6, 2023 by Superfluous J

[razark]

Let's say that there is absolutely perfect communication (whatever that means to you).  There's no lack in the flow of information; you know exactly what is going on with every single bit of development; every management decision is laid bare; you know the status of every single bug and each feature; anything that you could ever possibly know is open and posted in your favorite format and location.  Every message is clearly worded, with no possibility of misinterpretation.

 

What do you get out of it?  Is it going to make the game better?  Is it going to make the releases faster?  Does it let you influence the process?  Is it going to get your $50 back?

Seriously, what do you get out of it that you aren't going to get anyway?

[Stoup]

5 hours ago, razark said:

Let's say that there is absolutely perfect communication (whatever that means to you).  There's no lack in the flow of information; you know exactly what is going on with every single bit of development; every management decision is laid bare; you know the status of every single bug and each feature; anything that you could ever possibly know is open and posted in your favorite format and location.  Every message is clearly worded, with no possibility of misinterpretation.

 

What do you get out of it?  Is it going to make the game better?  Is it going to make the releases faster?  Does it let you influence the process?  Is it going to get your $50 back?

Seriously, what do you get out of it that you aren't going to get anyway?

A sense that there's some level of respect between the community and the developers? When things like comms are bad, and they say they want to fix it, but then don't elaborate on how they plan to do that for extended periods of time, it leaves people feeling like there's just zero care given to community opinion.

[Alexoff]

6 hours ago, razark said:

Seriously, what do you get out of it that you aren't going to get anyway?

You will be sure whether you should expect anything from the game at all.

[Jacke]

This lack of communication is being noted far and wide.  Among other things.

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by Jacke

[Scarecrow71]

1 hour ago, Jacke said:

This lack of communication is being noted far and wide.  Among other things.

 

I'm on record as being one of the biggest nay-sayers of KSP2; it is no secret that I'm not very happy with the way things have gone.  With that said, even I'm beginning to get tired of the rehash of everything going on here.   Nothing is said in this video that we don't already know, and it's merely just repeating what we read here on the forums every day.

The one thing in this video that I specifically want to address is the author's take on KSP1 player counts.  I have a really hard time believing that people who are upset with KSP2 are also simply putting KSP1 down and not playing that either.  Or, rather, that the number of players stopping KSP1 gameplay due to KSP2 not making them happy is far lower than what we would be led to believe in the author's statements in the video.  In fact, most of the people I've read in this forum who aren't happy with KSP2 - including myself - are going back through career games in KSP1 because we don't want to deal with the bugs in KSP2.  For myself, I'm using mods in KSP1 that I would have never thought of before (Remote Tech, KSRSS, JNSQ, as a few examples) to try and see if I can get a different type of game play out of KSP1.  All told, I simply think that there is no correlation, at least in the numbers the author mentions, between being unhappy with KSP2 and also being unhappy with KSP1.  I could very well be wrong. 

[shelshok]

2 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

All told, I simply think that there is no correlation, at least in the numbers the author mentions, between being unhappy with KSP2 and also being unhappy with KSP1.  I could very well be wrong. 

I would think that regular updates to KSP1 would always bring people who've stopped playing or played less back to check out new features. I know it did for me multiple times.

Now that there are no more updates, that is no longer happening.

[Alexoff]

2 minutes ago, shelshok said:

back to check out new features.

...

Now that there are no more updates, that is no longer happening.

No features - nothing to check. I think no registry spam is not a feature

[MechBFP]

8 minutes ago, shelshok said:

I would think that regular updates to KSP1 would always bring people who've stopped playing or played less back to check out new features. I know it did for me multiple times.

Now that there are no more updates, that is no longer happening.

Ya that was definitely a contributing factor. Also I don't want to get burnt out on KSP so then if/when KSP 2 gets good I can actually enjoy it, and a lot of people have expressed similar sentiments.

Edited October 6, 2023 by MechBFP

[Mikki]

I don`t feel frustrated at all. And i would never  assume in public the opinion of other people about anything. Plain clickbait.

Edited October 7, 2023 by Mikki
anYthing, oh the typos haunt me

[Jacke]

16 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I'm on record as being one of the biggest nay-sayers of KSP2; it is no secret that I'm not very happy with the way things have gone.  With that said, even I'm beginning to get tired of the rehash of everything going on here.   Nothing is said in this video that we don't already know, and it's merely just repeating what we read here on the forums every day.

The people who read the KSP forums are only a fraction of the KSP playerbase.  I imagine ObsidianAnt's video will potentially reach more people who are interested in KSP.  Who likely have forgot about KSP2, since they didn't buy it and there's been nothing significant done.  Bug fixes are important (I'd like to see another 1 or a dozen bugfix releases for KSP1), but they aren't progress but fixing what shouldn't have broke.

And putting out the message on KSP2 is important to put pressure on the devs to do something, communication and progress.

 

16 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

The one thing in this video that I specifically want to address is the author's take on KSP1 player counts.  I have a really hard time believing that people who are upset with KSP2 are also simply putting KSP1 down and not playing that either.  Or, rather, that the number of players stopping KSP1 gameplay due to KSP2 not making them happy is far lower than what we would be led to believe in the author's statements in the video.  In fact, most of the people I've read in this forum who aren't happy with KSP2 - including myself - are going back through career games in KSP1 because we don't want to deal with the bugs in KSP2.  For myself, I'm using mods in KSP1 that I would have never thought of before (Remote Tech, KSRSS, JNSQ, as a few examples) to try and see if I can get a different type of game play out of KSP1.  All told, I simply think that there is no correlation, at least in the numbers the author mentions, between being unhappy with KSP2 and also being unhappy with KSP1.  I could very well be wrong. 

Some players who've given up on KSP2 likely did go back to KSP1, others probably didn't.  I can't remember the details of what ObisidianAnt said; from what you've said, I'll assume he focused on those who left KSP completely.  That is a significant issue.  No matter what happens, some of them will never be back.

 

13 hours ago, shelshok said:

I would think that regular updates to KSP1 would always bring people who've stopped playing or played less back to check out new features. I know it did for me multiple times.

Now that there are no more updates, that is no longer happening.

As I mentioned above, I'd like to see more bugfix releases for KSP1.  It's an easy measure that would generate some goodwill at a crucial time.

[Periple]

13 minutes ago, Jacke said:

And putting out the message on KSP2 is important to put pressure on the devs to do something, communication and progress.

There's a funny thing about pressure. You need the right amount. If there isn’t enough then it’s easy to just end up tooling around and not finish anything. But if there’s too much, you make hasty decisions, cut corners, get into fruitless arguments with your colleagues, and don’t make any progress.

I think it’s much more likely that the devs are under too much pressure than too little! Although it may be that earlier in the project the opposite was true!

[Nicrose]

I have no idea what to say at this point other than wow.... and not in the good way. I have stepped away for months and came back to almost the exact same "game" if you can call it that. Honestly this is probably my last time checking on KSP since it's always in the same state. Really miss the days before release when I was hopeful and excited tbh, the hype was way better when we thought we were getting a mostly finished game. Super sad about this, but with CS2 and a plethora of other games coming out, it's inevitable that KSP2 will turn into that woody meme. 

[Scarecrow71]

The simple answer is that they are focusing more on actually dealing with bugs and content than interacting with the community.  That doesn't excuse them from the lack of communication, especially when they have a social media department.  But that's the simple answer.

The complicated answer is that:

1. They are short-staffed on the social media side, which explains the need for them to post for a social media guru to help with communication.
2. This isn't the only title that TT is responsible for, which means priorities shift.
3. The CM's are probably tired of getting lambasted at every turn, which means they are less likely to show up most days.
4. IG truly is working on bug- and hot-fixes, as well as trying to incorporate new content and features.  And this isn't easy to do.  Have you looked at C code for a project?  I'm a software dev by day, and I can say with a whole lot of certainty that the code for this game is just too big for me to handle.  I can't imagine how the smart guys like Nertea and Trigger_AU (and others who I cannot name off the top of my head right now) deal with looking at the code on a daily basis.  This project is LARGE, and it can take hours just to find the right subroutine to work on, let alone tracking down a bug that may be present in multiple spots in the code.  And let's not forget that adding stuff like features and content would require altering multiple sections of code to deal with the content/feature/enhancement.

That complicated answer is actually far simpler than the truth (assuming I'm even close to the real answer, which lord only knows if I am as I'm not a developer or affiliated with the company in any way, shape, or form).  But you get the general idea.  Would you rather they communicate daily and further delay the game, or have them work on the game and communicate when they have something to say?

I'll state that I wish they were more active here.  I'm not a fan of the CM's using Discord for communicating with the community and then hoping the dev tracker on the front page here picks it up AND people read it.  That's not a good thing.  But complaining about it won't change it.

[The Aziz]

Really. The identical thing was right there in front of your nose.

 

[Alexoff]

Something tells me that there will be no response from the developers as before

[Nicrose]

1 hour ago, Scarecrow71 said:

The simple answer is that they are focusing more on actually dealing with bugs and content than interacting with the community.  That doesn't excuse them from the lack of communication, especially when they have a social media department.  But that's the simple answer.

The complicated answer is that:

1. They are short-staffed on the social media side, which explains the need for them to post for a social media guru to help with communication.
2. This isn't the only title that TT is responsible for, which means priorities shift.
3. The CM's are probably tired of getting lambasted at every turn, which means they are less likely to show up most days.
4. IG truly is working on bug- and hot-fixes, as well as trying to incorporate new content and features.  And this isn't easy to do.  Have you looked at C code for a project?  I'm a software dev by day, and I can say with a whole lot of certainty that the code for this game is just too big for me to handle.  I can't imagine how the smart guys like Nertea and Trigger_AU (and others who I cannot name off the top of my head right now) deal with looking at the code on a daily basis.  This project is LARGE, and it can take hours just to find the right subroutine to work on, let alone tracking down a bug that may be present in multiple spots in the code.  And let's not forget that adding stuff like features and content would require altering multiple sections of code to deal with the content/feature/enhancement.

That complicated answer is actually far simpler than the truth (assuming I'm even close to the real answer, which lord only knows if I am as I'm not a developer or affiliated with the company in any way, shape, or form).  But you get the general idea.  Would you rather they communicate daily and further delay the game, or have them work on the game and communicate when they have something to say?

I'll state that I wish they were more active here.  I'm not a fan of the CM's using Discord for communicating with the community and then hoping the dev tracker on the front page here picks it up AND people read it.  That's not a good thing.  But complaining about it won't change it.

Yeah, tbh I expect nothing at this point. They have officially pushed me away. Honestly the only reason I even am responding to this is because I accidentally left the browser open and came back to some replies but as a game dev, the release of this game has been inexcusable regardless of how large the code is strictly because of the hype leading up to the early access release in which we were led to believe the game was much further than it is. I don't doubt that it's not easy and that it's a lot of code but perhaps they should voice those concerns with the community instead of claiming it's full steam ahead and going swimmingly with nothing to show for it except concept art and constant promises with no delivery. But I do have to say it was nice seeing you on the forums here over the past year or more as well as some others in the community and I will truly miss seeing those familiar people <3  Good luck to everyone working on the game and to everyone waiting!

[Infinite Aerospace]

2 hours ago, Alexoff said:

Something tells me that there will be no response from the developers as before

Yup, I pretty much second this.

[Vanamonde]

Overlapping threads have been merged. 

[TLTay]

Maybe we should have a candlelight vigil post where we can all mourn the hopeful promise that KSP2 gave us during those dark covidian times.

[Pthigrivi]

Maybe its because Ive been around a while but Im curious when exactly was this golden era when devs chimed in every day and we got content updates every couple of months? Have a look at ksp1’s version history. We were lucky to get a full decimal content update every six months, sometimes as long as a year in between—as we saw between 1.0 and 1.1. Half the time even those were just a dozen or so part re-skins. Squad was great, but generally there was essentially zero communication until a month or so before a big version update. The communication is about 10x better than it was back then. The central issue was and is the actual state of the game, which definitely started rough, but genuinely is getting much better. Its just taken time, and honestly less time than it took for KSP1 issues to be addressed. I mean were wheels and jumping landing legs ever actually solved? All of this seems based on a very glossy view on times gone by. I understand we’re in needier times but I don’t think the laws of physics and the challenges of programming have wildly changed since 2015. 
 

So, again. Im just saying. There’s nothing wrong with a little patience. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[PDCWolf]

On 10/6/2023 at 2:14 AM, razark said:

What do you get out of it?  Is it going to make the game better?  Is it going to make the releases faster?  Does it let you influence the process?  Is it going to get your $50 back?

 

Seriously, what do you get out of it that you aren't going to get anyway?

Well, it'd be the first show of value for those $50, since the game doesn't take that place yet. The game is supposed to be an EA, so the customer is supposed to be part, and the customer is also supposed to know what is going on. That's not a big ask, that's the bare minimum for an EA title. People paid to be testers of a broken tech demo and are not even sure that their testing or their $50 went anywhere.

The one thing that getting put on probation and banned so often does for me is that I'm able to look at other places and see what people really believe, which  is contrary to the usual apologist narrative that goes on between the like 10 people who still attack "naysayers" in these parts: People (as in, a good portion of the 400 to 800k that purchased the game) really do believe the game is dead and on the verge of cancellation. Any other view opposite to that is definitely part of a very small minority, and almost entirely exclusive to these forums and the discord.

On 10/6/2023 at 11:18 AM, Scarecrow71 said:

The one thing in this video that I specifically want to address is the author's take on KSP1 player counts.  I have a really hard time believing that people who are upset with KSP2 are also simply putting KSP1 down and not playing that either.  Or, rather, that the number of players stopping KSP1 gameplay due to KSP2 not making them happy is far lower than what we would be led to believe in the author's statements in the video. 

Funnily enough whilst you were banned here and went on Reddit, you should've come across any of the 100 threads polling, explaining or at least showing the phenomenon. KSP2 killed almost 75% of the activity of KSP1, and it never came back to either game, or to the social platforms. Finding people that put down KSP1 to play KSP2 and got disappointed, only to move on to other games is pretty common.

47 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

Maybe its because Ive been around a while but

Which reeks of bad faith. There was a point where we'd get dev blogs every week (which eventually turned into "we're still working" and had to be cancelled because god forbid they actually worked on the game and had something to show for it), and at the same time we'd have KSPTV with developers and CMs playing the game, whilst still getting dev blogs and updates every couple months.

[Pthigrivi]

1 hour ago, PDCWolf said:

Which reeks of bad faith. There was a point where we'd get dev blogs every week (which eventually turned into "we're still working" and had to be cancelled because god forbid they actually worked on the game and had something to show for it), and at the same time we'd have KSPTV with developers and CMs playing the game, whilst still getting dev blogs and updates every couple months.

Oh sure from time to time we’d see a flurry of posts before a big update, but most of the time—often for months at a time—there was no actual communication about what they were doing or working on. Im talking from the time I started playing until the cessation of development in 2021. More recently it seems like the chicken little meltdowns start about 3 to 4 days without a devblog. Maybe Im old but feels a bit theatrical to me. 

Edited October 12, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[PDCWolf]

7 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

Oh sure from time to time we’d see a flurry of posts before a big update, but most of the time—often for months at a time—there was no actual communication about what they were doing or working on. Im talking from the time I started playing until the cessation of development in 2021. More recently it seems like the chicken little meltdowns start about 3 to 4 days without a devblog. Maybe Im old but feels a bit theatrical to me. 

Which is a feat still undefeated by KSP2. At the "best" time we'd get an upnate that told us they couldn't tell us the date, and then a communication from Dakota that the patch was near, and then it was just bugfixes and nothing more.

The last proper devblog was July 21 (83 days) , about the heat system.

The last "dev chat" was 12 days ago (after being delayed from a release statement in August, from which another video is still missing).

The last "upnate" was June 30 (104 days).

Now, you could argue that the dev chat would obviously stand as the latest communication, but I'm sure you'd quickly be reminded that not only did it state nothing about the game but it was also nothing about what could be coming to the game, considering it was only theoretical talk about an internal tool to maybe let them try some solutions.

One can call people naysayers, haters, meltdown havers, and whatever else, but I once again invite you and everyone to take a snoop outside these forums (and much more the discord), and actually get a taste at what differing opinions look like. It's way too easy to call people toxic and cower under the blanket thinking everyone else is the problem. Here you go, have an album.