Developer Insights #19 - Try, Fail, Try Again...and Again

[Stephensan]

15 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

That won't work if the game crashes, or if there are screenshots to be included, etc

That works if when you start asking, you specify everything needed.  It seems to me that they didn't even know what to ask for

i did say if its a game breaking bug you still have to go to the forum or discord, but it still doesn't make sense for us need to waste tons of time to do a report, going OFF the game to a discord or forum for every single bug we find.. Most players don't even want to report bugs because it takes forever to collect the data, compress into .zip etc, so why make it harder for that few percentage that want to do a report but doesn't want to jump through hoops to get all the info, game breaking = for me literally not able to load into menu screen, there is not alot of times that there is a bug that bad, Most bugs are found IN game during gameplay, everything can be done from the  main menu, in game, map, building, and actual gameplay areas.. Going off the game takes at least 10-15 seconds for each little bit of information if its "fresh off your mind", why need to do that, why complicate it when its a technical beta when there is 100's if not 1000's of bugs to report?..

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

11 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

The bolded, highlighted text had far more effect than all caps.

I'm going to quibble with you - because I'm in a quibbling mood.

A FULL SENTENCE IN ALL CAPS IS SHOUTING!!!!111

However when I bold something - it's because I want to highlight that particular point.  It's NOT shouting - neither is a single all caps word.  Both are for emphasis.

20 hours ago, Intercept Games said:

We’re here for you

Thanks.  This would have been a great post to make during the first week of the EA release.  The Comm Strategy at the time seemed to be to handwave stuff, minimize acknowledgement of the problems we all unexpectedly encountered - and run Challenges and show Tik-toks.  That said, I do appreciate the time you took to write this up and publish it to the community.

Can you comment on how the telemetry gathering process is helping compared to player published reports?

Edited May 5, 2023 by JoeSchmuckatelli

[Scarecrow71]

17 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

I'm going to quibble with you - because I'm in a quibbling mood.

A FULL SENTENCE IN ALL CAPS IS SHOUTING!!!!111

However when I bold something - it's because I want to highlight that particular point.  It's NOT shouting - neither is a single all caps word.  Both are for emphasis.

I am aware that all caps is shouting.  In the case that I'm referencing, the words were all bolded AND highlighted.  That is the equivalent, at least to me, of shouting.  One or the other would have sufficed.

 

And now I'm done with this conversation.  And this topic.  And just about these forums.  I'm done having to defend myself over and over again simply because I'm on the side of the fence that believes KSP2 is junk and needs serious work.  Buh-bye. 

[cocoscacao]

4 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I'm done having to defend myself over and over again simply because I'm on the side of the fence that believes KSP2 is junk

If it's any consolidation, you are one of those on the other side of the fence who's actually making good points...

[HebaruSan]

11 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

The bolded, highlighted text had far more effect than all caps.

39 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

However when I bold something - it's because I want to highlight that particular point.  It's NOT shouting - neither is a single all caps word.  Both are for emphasis.

20 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I am aware that all caps is shouting.  In the case that I'm referencing, the words were all bolded AND highlighted.  That is the equivalent, at least to me, of shouting.  One or the other would have sufficed.

No, nothing was bolded.

I think you may be referring to the foreground/background coloring that the forum auto-applied when I pasted the copied text. I did not notice this because it matched my theme. I have gone back and cleared this formatting.

Edited May 5, 2023 by HebaruSan

[atomontage]

44 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I'm on the side of the fence that believes KSP2 is junk and needs serious work

We're with you. When I feel the same ('tired of defending myself'), I just close the conversation. You can't tell ppl that like the game that it is bad - they won't listen. In the end, they have their own opinion. Usually I just leave them in peace. Like to let them be.

And to the topic.. All the corporate stuff makes me feel sad. The least to say.
We're not allowed to know what happened and why @Nate Simpson told us a few months ago that the game was in need of polishing and they wanted to deliver the product that is up to high quality standards. And we're not allowed to know what happened in the last 3 years that made the game THAT unplayable (or painfully playable). Are we?
Meh... all these dev diaries were quite fun (most of them) during the development. Now they remind us (me) the great hype train derailment. And its painful to remember that. We wanted the game so much... But now its not what we wanted.

Edited May 5, 2023 by atomontage
fixed typos

[Bej Kerman]

21 hours ago, Intercept Games said:

A. “This game doesn’t work!  I can’t play!!” 
(end of message)

Or

B. “This game doesn’t work, here is some info and specific steps of what I was doing – please fix it!!” 
(adds a bunch of information we can work with)

We will obviously do as much as we can about B, but there is literally nothing we can do about A.  I’ve chatted with Dakota and the others on the Community team… and they don’t ban people for hitting us with hard criticism.  You bought the game, and you are VERY entitled go full rage-mode on the boards when you run into an issue.  But, at the same time: we don’t have to read it. So, if you are over the top and just trolling the boards… we probably aren’t reading that.  But, if you are giving harsh but fair critiques – we take that to heart and bring that voice back to the greater team and do everything we can to ensure it gets taken care of.

The only people who are going to be mad about this blunt but honest post are those who say nothing helpful.

54 minutes ago, atomontage said:

You can't tell ppl that like the game that it is bad - they won't listen

We do listen, but we won't bend our opinions to the will of some forum plodder. I don't suppose you would be somewhat peeved if I explained that the people whining endlessly about KSP 2 just don't listen to reason and would rather stay seething about time they spent 2019-2023 hyping instead of doing something useful?

[PDCWolf]

So, some takeaways from this post:

1. QA is doing a good job.
2. QA has already found about almost all bugs.
3. You're working on investigating all reported bugs.
4. You're helping to fix all reported bugs.
5. Bug reporting is useful.
6. Constructive criticism is better.
7. You're working to decrease the minimum requirements.

Now, the one takeaway y'all have to do is that there's no place for private bugtracking on an early access title. You can't prove a single one of these points until an update hits, the same updates like Patch 2 where we get regression bugs and missed fixes and it rains poop on the QA/Devs.

 

[Socraticat]

3 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

And now I'm done with this conversation.  And this topic.  And just about these forums.  I'm done having to defend myself over and over again simply because I'm on the side of the fence that believes KSP2 is junk and needs serious work.  Buh-bye. 

I was going to leave it be... but I feel like you  deserve this feedback, as you are a valuable member of this forum.

Spoiler

I returned to these forums just for KSP2. I know no-one here, IRL or otherwise. You are all new to me.

I pegged you as an enthusiastic member immediately. I enjoy your content and generally value your opinion.

But I think you can do better here.

Stop defending your position, or maybe realize doing so will probably result in a response in kind (pro or con). We know your position. You think KSP2 is awful and maybe not redeemable. It's not an unpopular opinion.

But there is the exact opposite opinion that thrives on this forum as well. It's quiet, often just shows up as a screenshot, or maybe just a like. We are apoplectic for KSP2, chewing our fingernails for the next update.

I don't mind your anger, but I think you can tone down the vitriol. This forum is great because you can write, proofread, edit, redact, and retract. It's the ultimate tool for turning conversations more civil.

But the one thing the forum can't change is attitude. When you sign off with "[This is all garbage] Buh-bye..."

Same goes for pedantry about text and font types- economic of games- shoulds and oughts... It's passive aggressive and so easy to do unintentionally. 

Every other thing you say suddenly carries less weight. Your arguments mean less and I value your opinion less, because it seems exaggerated through a lens of anger. When I consider the exagerration, I think it diminishes the point. I suppose the same should be said for rose colored goggles, but I find that more palatable and wholesome...

When I take away the anger I just see you, frustrated at the game not working... just like the rest of us are experiencing. 

Dude, I get it. The game needs work. No arguments there. I'm sorry you are having a bad time. If you leave and come back for your own health, good. I support you. I hope you have better luck with the next update.

I put this in a spoiler instead of a DM because I wish I could say it to a few more members. 

I'm really bummed you are not enjoying the game in its current state. Please keep in mind it's OK for others to disagree, and pushing your point will ultimately result in the other side doing the same. My preference is to just... not. There was something said somewhere about the relevancy of comments in a thread past page 3 (because it gets off topic and emotional).

It's a game folks. Go get some sunlight and make a bottlerocket. Call it D.I.Y.S.P.

TL;DR We know KSP2 needs work. Please watch for passive aggressiveness- it's disheartening to see some valued members turn against each other or the forums.

Please be excellent to each other.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Socraticat
*you are a valuable member of this forum

[HebaruSan]

3 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I'm done having to defend myself over and over again simply because I'm on the side of the fence that believes KSP2 is junk and needs serious work.

For the record, my opinion on KSP2 qua KSP2 is:  It has far too many severe bugs for me to enjoy or purchase. (I also don't buy pre-orders, and for me this would constitute a pre-order for the features that were announced but aren't included yet.) I only have it in my Steam library because a generous soul donated it so I could look at the files to add CKAN support; but I have not yet been able to launch it for uninteresting reasons related to OS versioning.

So that's not why I was objecting to your complaints about the bug reporting process.

Edited May 5, 2023 by HebaruSan

[Vanamonde]

Tempers are getting too high. Please stop trying to tell each other what to think and how to express it. Talk about the game rather than each other. 

[Darrin H]

21 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Frankly, I'm a bit disheartened right now.  I spent a LOT of time (which I don't have a lot of) to write the KSP Bug Packager (with the initial push coming from @ShadowZone, thanks).  

Then @Nate Simpson says he loves it as his favorite mod.

Then you come along and totally ignore it, and start asking for yet more info.  Tell me, did you even thing to ask me to add in those fields into the bug packager to help provide you with what you are looking for?

Sometimes I think I'm being totally ignored.  It really doesn't give me any motivation to write mods for the game.

I'm going to take what you asked for and add it to the bug packager, maybe you can consider suggesting to people to use the bug packager to make YOUR lives easier.  Believe me, it doesn't make my life easier when I have to write up bug reports, and then yet more bug reports, etc.

 

@linuxgurugamer

I actually had your info in the original version of this blog.  But, when it was reviewed,  I was told I needed to remove it.  Since we didn't directly make it or test it, etc.  Aka, IF something bad happened after I told people to use it...  that sort of thing.

I should have at least mentioned that there are cool tools out there to have people search on their own for them.

Yours is great - and we all very much appreciate you putting it together.

Not gonna lie, I'm more than a bit bummed that so many are looking for issues in the blog and making assumptions that for example I ignored it without knowing the full info.  BUT at the same time I get it... because it wasn't mentioned at all and that's 100% my fault.

I'm here to help.  My goal in the bug area was more for people who were leaving NO info at all (and there are a LOT of those - actually the biggest percentage).    People who have been leaving lots of info - we love it - please keep it up!

20 hours ago, darthgently said:

Apparently no automated testing?   If they built it for Lua scripting as advertised I'd think automated testing of large chunks of the game would be a given.  It would be so valuable that getting the scripting interface working very early on would make a huge amount of sense

There is, and I mention there is in my blog.

19 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

Intercept's process for receiving external bug reports is at most 69 days old and was created by the same people who are changing it now. Your notions of "newbs to a company" and "established processes" are quite peculiar indeed. (But also just as irrelevant as the initial attempted tangent about your own bug tracker template.)

This is incorrect.  I started a week before release and I didn't make the original.   Also, the current one is generic for all games across Private Division.

18 hours ago, Strawberry said:

This is less of a dev diary and more of an announcement, I think its an important one but itd probably go down more smoothly if it was phrased more like a "Hey thank you for wanting to help us out heres the best way to do that" instead of a dev diary with that former part crammed in and taking up most of it. 

The primary goal here was to improve the large percentage of bugs & posts that are submitted across the board.  A good amount of users are doing a great job, but far too many literally say what I mention in the blog "This game is broke, i can't play".    I wanted to stress to people that if they submit that, then nothing can be done with it.
For the people submitting great info  - fantastic keep it up!

[Darrin H]

5 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

ICan you comment on how the telemetry gathering process is helping compared to player published reports?

I can't go into the details on Telemetry, but I can say:  it lines up with what we see.  We got a LOT of crashes, and reports of crashers early on and throughout Patch 1 to Patch 2.    Telemetry was telling is the great majority of a certain type of crash (the loading issue) was with video cards below the min bar.  When we reached out to users who were sumitting the issue, we got the same results.
The key is:  automation alone isn't enough.  Telemetry alone isn't either.   We need user data (with info) to help build the full picture.

[Geredis]

35 minutes ago, Darrin H said:

Not gonna lie, I'm more than a bit bummed that so many are looking for issues in the blog and making assumptions that for example I ignored it without knowing the full info.  BUT at the same time I get it... because it wasn't mentioned at all.

[...]

The primary goal here was to improve the large percentage of bugs & posts that are submitted across the board.  A good amount of users are doing a great job, but far too many literally say what I mention in the blog "This game is broke, i can't play".    I wanted to stress to people that if they submit that, then nothing can be done with it.

I don't think anyone necessarily blames you for the content you've provided - it's a valuable reminder for a lot of people, who clearly need it, and an interesting (if not super-informative) read for other folks - but it doesn't feel like a Dev Diary as  the community has come to expect through industry standard practices or past experiences here with these forums.

I think the issue is more on the CM/PR side of things that decided this post, which is basically a PSA about  "Proper Bug Report Etiquette, Procedure, and Protocol", is a Dev Diary, instead of a general Community Reminder or PSA, or Announcement or News, or whatever it is you guys might want to call such, because this did come across as a lecture, a reminder, than any kind of meaningful insight into development. Hell, this post might have been much more appropriate as a sticky in the Bug report subforum if you decided it's somehow not fit for an Announcement or News post given that it boils down to a how-to, with a bit of QA fluff attached to it.

What you call things matters and consistent mislabeling content in the future may lead to people making assumptions, true or not, about the content you're putting out in certain categories. When content is mislabeled, it creates more work for the community to have to sift through things to figure out what is actually what, leading to people dropping off because it's just more work than it's worth to figure out what is what.

Edited May 5, 2023 by Geredis

[BowlerHatGuy3]

On 5/4/2023 at 1:21 PM, Thesquaremantis Drawz said:

Our goal is to slowly increase the minimum requirements over time

What? (༎ຶ⌑༎ຶ)

[Darrin H]

8 minutes ago, BowlerHatGuy3 said:

What? (༎ຶ⌑༎ຶ)

It's a weird phrase.  I had it say "decrease" and got comments and then "improve" did also - I should have said it better.

Basically:  over time we want stuff "below the bar" now to get "above the min bar" as time goes on.

19 minutes ago, Geredis said:

What you call things matters and consistent mislabeling content in the future may lead to people making assumptions, true or not, about the content you're putting out in certain categories. When content is mislabeled, it creates more work for the community to have to sift through things to figure out what is actually what, leading to people dropping off because it's just more work than it's worth to figure out what is what.

Totally get that.  I've called it my "QA blog" as I wrote it up.   I think the CMs just need a spot to put it here on the board.   

Definitely didn't want to send a wrong vibe or mixed message there.   Apologies from me.

[InterstellarDrifter]

Just a question or two about bug reporting bugs and dealing with them. I can understand how hard crashing is a high priority bug, but how does that compare to say..hypothetically..80% of user's wings fall off when physics ease-in drops the vessel on the runway, but I can build it another way and it works okay? Looking at my own single use-case, which I would consider very average, there are bugs that are glaring, obvious, and honestly off-putting, even post 0.2. I have shelved KSP2 because of it. I don't know if this is even possible, but I think people(at least some of these more negative folks) would like to see, is laying out or somehow identifying some of these game stopping bugs(even with work-arounds), acknowledge them, and tell us they're noted and being worked on.

Also, people are much less likely to do anything when there is friction. I'd say most people need motivation, like money, recognition, reward etc..to go above and beyond, and I'd say compiling a file for submission taking 15-30min is that for most. JS.

[Darrin H]

2 minutes ago, InterstellarDrifter said:

Just a question or two about bug reporting bugs and dealing with them. I can understand how hard crashing is a high priority bug, but how does that compare to say..hypothetically..80% of user's wings fall off when physics ease-in drops the vessel on the runway, but I can build it another way and it works okay? Looking at my own single use-case, which I would consider very average, there are bugs that are glaring, obvious, and honestly off-putting, even post 0.2. I have shelved KSP2 because of it. I don't know if this is even possible, but I think people(at least some of these more negative folks) would like to see, is laying out or somehow identifying some of these game stopping bugs(even with work-arounds), acknowledge them, and tell us they're noted and being worked on.

Also, people are much less likely to do anything when there is friction. I'd say most people need motivation, like money, recognition, reward etc..to go above and beyond, and I'd say compiling a file for submission taking 15-30min is that for most. JS.

I love this question.   This goes to what I mention in the blog about "frequency"   To me frequency of a bug actually trumps severity.   Let's say it's a crasher but a very small % of the users hit it.   And you have... well... something like wings falling off that a much higher % hits.

Imo that moves the wings issue above.  Now... lots of other factors come into play.   Like where the code is, what it affects, how complex is the change, and honestly a lot more, but you get it.     So.. in summary.   Wings = important, and we need to make sure they get fixed asap.

As far as logging bugs.   I've said it on the discord like this:
If I'm playing the new Jedi game (which I am at home at night).  And I find a bug, I'm not logging it for them.   I just don't do that sort of thing.   They'll find it, they'll fix it, etc.    But... at the same time I'm not going to go up to the boards and say "I can't play, I found a bug, and it doesn't work" without any more info.

I just want people who I know care very much and are very frustrated to give us the info needed so that we can fix their issue if they care to post about it.  (the more info the better, but I don't expect anyone to spend significant time on it... just enough that we can take it from there)

[darthgently]

43 minutes ago, Darrin H said:

20 hours ago, darthgently said:

Apparently no automated testing?   If they built it for Lua scripting as advertised I'd think automated testing of large chunks of the game would be a given.  It would be so valuable that getting the scripting interface working very early on would make a huge amount of sense

There is, and I mention there is in my blog

Well, you stated that some automation was used, but that most testing could not be well automated.  I think more could probably be automated, especially if a Lua interface is available.  I'm specifically considering regression test scripts that address major playability functionality, known major fixed bugs (to catch if they re-emerge), not mere factorial combos of parts.

Gameplay flow needs to be automated in tests, not just combos of parts.  It is the gameplay flow that sells (or doesn't).  Core flow functionality needs automated regression testing.

Example test scripts:

Maneuver node creation

MN adjusting

MN burning

Decaying orbit check (example of nasty gameplay flow issue that deserves constant automated testing vigilance, one fixed, as it is a total gameplay joy quencher)

Fuel flow and distribution checks

Generic memory leak tests in all test scripts

Any major gameplay flow bug fixed deserves an automated sentinel test script to guard against re-emergence.

Just my thoughts.

Oh yeah, if Lua scripting is working, those who paid $50 deserve to have it available to help your team test.

Finally, and I mean this extremely constructively, as much as you guys hate bugs, at least you are getting paid to fix them instead of having to pay $50 to report them like those other folks who apparently don't hate the bugs as much as you do (in your stated opinion).  Tone matters a lot.  I mean I'd never tell a paying customer that product problems were less of a deal for them than for me whose job it was to deal with them in the first place.  Again: this is constructive feedback

 

[PDCWolf]

Wow, someone communicating with users that actually has the ability to acknowledge mistakes, reply, and have a discussion instead of running into the room, yelling "EVERYTHING IS GREAT" and running away? incredible.

Way to go @Darrin H.

Any word on discussion, intent or at least "noise" about a proper, public bugtracker?

[Darrin H]

Just now, PDCWolf said:

Any word on discussion, intent or at least "noise" about a proper, public bugtracker?

VERY big topic.  Great question.   There are very good reasons to have one.  BUT.... also very bad reasons to have one.   
We're having discussions about it, thinking of how we can do it and avoid the bad parts (I'm not going to list those out).
No promises, but it's high on our list of stuff to make a decision on.

[PDCWolf]

Just now, Darrin H said:

(I'm not going to list those out).

I can imagine some, but you do break my heart not listing them.

Glad to know the topic has actually reached somewhere. Just for reference, this was brought up around release when people were racing to report bugs, and I think this is the first "official" answer to the topic. It took 70 days. And no, I'm not putting that number on you, for you it must've looked like 45 seconds in a thread since I tagged you, thanks man.

[RocketRockington]

39 minutes ago, Darrin H said:

VERY big topic.  Great question.   There are very good reasons to have one.  BUT.... also very bad reasons to have one.   

Is one of the reasons because then we'd see the pace at which bugs are/aren't addressed?  That's gonna be evident anyway.

Good on you for coming back to deal with this.  Direct engagement was part of what made KSP1 great, both as a game and as a community.  Addressing/acknowledging the negatives and not just hyping positives too. 

The rest of the studio could learn a lot from you.  Good on you.  I hope you're not regretting accepting that job offer.

[InterstellarDrifter]

1 hour ago, Darrin H said:

As far as logging bugs.   I've said it on the discord like this:
If I'm playing the new Jedi game (which I am at home at night).  And I find a bug, I'm not logging it for them.   I just don't do that sort of thing.   They'll find it, they'll fix it, etc.    But... at the same time I'm not going to go up to the boards and say "I can't play, I found a bug, and it doesn't work" without any more info.

True, true.  And in fact, this has been my sentiment, well, pretty much for forever haha. Although, shamefully, it hasn't stopped me from whining about my most anticipated and beloved games when they drop with big bugs...heh heh...

also, this and Mortoc's post have been my favorite KSP2 posts across all platforms so far. please KIU!  

Edited May 5, 2023 by InterstellarDrifter
Mordoc > Mortoc ..oops lol

[Darrin H]

2 minutes ago, RocketRockington said:

The rest of the studio could learn a lot from you.  Good on you.  I hope you're not regretting accepting that job offer.

Not even the tiniest of bits.  The people here are FANTASTIC.  I've worked at MS, Amazon and other places and this crew is as good as it gets imo.   Very helpful to new person on the team and they really do care about KSP.  I can't stress that enough.     Most of the team is previous players (like all of you).

Regretting to a blog...?  eh...... maybe.    Some mean people out there on reddit.... ouchies.

4 minutes ago, InterstellarDrifter said:

also, this and Mordoc's post have been my favorite KSP2 posts across all platforms so far. please KIU!  

Appreciate that.  Mortoc and I both came from very similar teams at our previous jobs.  He's a very cool dude - and I'm very happy to be working with him.

Anyone else reading stuff.    I think I've answered everything I'm going to for now.   I might do an AMA someday... TBD.

If you post after this - please don't think I'm ignoring you.   I've just gotta get back to work...!