CKAN vs Curseforge

[Dariusthedoggie]

I have been wanting to download mods for KSP 1, but have been wondering whether to use CKAN or Curseforge to install them. Could someone please recommend one?

[Poppa Wheelie]

I use, and recommend, CKAN.  Very easy to use.  CKAN does all the heavy lifting as far as keeping track of what dependencies are needed, and in loading up the proper folders.  As the user, I don't have to deal with any of that.  CKAN also keeps track of my various instances, including a mix of KSP1 and KSP2.  For example, I have 2 KSP1 and 2 KSP2 instances right now.  Using CKAN, I just pick the one I want and CKAN loads the correct game (with the mods specific to that instance).

I don't know anything about Curseforge.

[Dariusthedoggie]

What about on Mac?

[Cheesecake]

On 5/29/2023 at 8:57 PM, Dariusthedoggie said:

I have been wanting to download mods for KSP 1, but have been wondering whether to use CKAN or Curseforge to install them. Could someone please recommend one?

Both have their advantages in terms of direct installation. But both also have the disadvantage that only some of the mods are available. More mods are available at Spacedock or here in the forum via github. But here you have to install them manually and keep them up to date. But that's not a big problem if you're a bit familiar with it.

[Sampa]

Can is helpful in MOST instances.  I do not use ksp or can on Mac, so, no idea.  However, can does NOT in fact contain all mods ever written.  Curseforge has some of them, as well as the ksp forum and other locations.  There are various reasons why some authors choose not to have their work on can, or have their work removed (I will not go into it here as it is beyond the scope of your question).  Regardless, I use a mix of both.  I use can for most of my install, but manually install the rest.  Ultimately, it's up to you, and depends on the mod.  For mods with super complicated installations, can is the way to go (ckan will also check to ensure a specific mod you want to install does not conflict with others directly)

[Lisias]

On 5/29/2023 at 3:57 PM, Dariusthedoggie said:

I have been wanting to download mods for KSP 1, but have been wondering whether to use CKAN or Curseforge to install them. Could someone please recommend one?

CurseForge is more friendly to Authors, as they have a business model and can afford to properly pay for moderation and curating.

But you need to cope with ads both on site and Installer - someone need to pay for the party.

CKAN has no ads, and I don't have the slightest idea how they pay their bills. They are clearly overwhelmed, as they can't guarantee any level of stability once a update is made when many add'ons are updated at once. The current policy is insufficient and tends to overburden responsible Authors with support caused by misbehaving 3rd parties - I once had to agree on doing free QAS for someone else to prevent bugs on THEIR add'on from breaking mine in order to prevent a precipitated and unfair Incompatibility flag on mine.

Their technical advising is not rarely questionable, and sometimes deleterious- found some pull requests from them on 2rd parties that created worst potential problems than the one they aiming to fix - but, hey, this one is in the maintainers shoulders that merged the pull requests. On their behalf, they cared to try and this can be a good thing when both sides are willing to learn from their mistakes.

To be fair, CurseForge don't even try to do any of that - but they don't pretend it neither.

My best guess is that CKAN is terribly understaffed, and so the few available hands need to cope with technical issues they are not familiar with.

CKAN has also a still long list of very, very annoying bugs that they are, apparently, struggling to tackle down.

Authors have a way better treatment by CurseFurge, by the way. Not directly related to users, but it's still a factor.

 

On 6/1/2023 at 4:24 PM, Dariusthedoggie said:

What about on Mac?

If you are using MacOS with 32 bits applications support, CKAN works on GUI. Otherwise you will need to run it in command line or in a Text User Interface at best (there's a command-line option for it). Telling you the true, it's not bad - I even prefer it sometimes.

Curse Installer is the opposite, it only works on recent MacOS - Mojave is not supported (and I'm locked on it).

[Poodmund]

For reference, @Dariusthedoggie, the preference referenced above is pretty much only shared by the poster and the user who liked the post... almost all other mod developers within the community support CKAN and would prefer not to interact with Curseforge, so I would suggest to not just listen to those who shout the loudest. 

Try both. Pick your poison.

 

Edited June 14, 2023 by Poodmund

[HebaruSan]

Curse is a commercial enterprise. Its business plan is to monetize modding communities via the familiar model of attracting web traffic and selling ads. This can be beneficial in some cases, as when some modders receive small payments for hosting their mods there, and it can be detrimental in other cases, as when they compelled the shutdown of the only (third-party) API for listing and downloading mods they host to ensure Curseforge would be the exclusive beneficiary of those modders' work.

CKAN is a community-driven open source project. Its earliest versions grew out of efforts by KSP modders and players to automate the process of installing the large suite of mods that then was or later became known as Real Solar System / Realism Overhaul / Realistic Progression (a role in which it continues to this day). Its only monetary costs are small fees for the lowest tier of AWS cloud services to run the metadata crawling bot, which is paid out of @pjf's personal patreon; everything else leverages free services (primarily GitHub). All bug fixes and enhancements to CKAN's application code and the associated mod metadata are done by unpaid volunteers (themselves often also mod authors) who donate their time to a project they find interesting and worthwhile.

Sometimes there are functional problems when two mods are installed together. For non-CKAN users, the solution is simply to avoid installing those mods at the same time. However, when both mods are in CKAN, one author may request that CKAN add what's called a "conflict" relationship between the two mods, and CKAN can thereby find itself in the crossfire over which mod is at fault. Rather than taking it upon themselves to declare one side right and the other wrong, which is likely beyond their expertise anyway, the CKAN team tries instead to encourage the two parties to work together to find a suitable compromise, which may take the form of collaborating (gasp!) to make sure that everyone is satisfied with the outcome. Usually this works very well, as a good solution can almost always be found, and most mod authors are able to work well with others, with their different perspectives from working on different mods allowing them to anticipate problems that the other might have missed. Unfortunately a few mod authors believe their inherent rightness to be so indisputable that this is taken as an offense and a cause for resentment.

Occasionally (twice in the past 6 years), a particular mod author may become aggrieved with the CKAN team because they feel that its members have not donated enough of their free time to a particular task, or have not donated it quickly enough to satisfy what these authors feel they are entitled to. Usually this is after CKAN team members have already donated many hours to helping these individuals with previous requests; sometimes toxic or abusive behavior like indignantly refusing to compromise, name-calling, or spamming leads to less enthusiastic, more reluctant, and thus fewer donations of time; and sometimes persistent negative, hostile complaining just drains the fun out of doing the work. Sadly, when this happens, the best option is to disengage, because someone who blames and attacks you for not volunteering enough probably can't be convinced that they aren't entitled to demand that from you.

[Lisias]

17 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

as when they compelled the shutdown of the only (third-party) API for listing and downloading mods they host to ensure Curseforge would be the exclusive beneficiary of those modders' work.

I beg your pardon?

https://support.curseforge.com/en/support/solutions/articles/9000197321-curseforge-upload-api#:~:text=The CurseForge API allows users,versions and dependencies from CurseForge.

In a way or another, it's up to the author to decide to allow direct downloads from CurseForge or not, it's not a CurseForge decision. Since my add'ons are published on github and SpaceDock, I choose to disallow direct downloads on CurseForge for them. It was my decision, not CurseForge's.

CurseForge had its problems, as everybody else, but since it as bought from Twitch things are improving.

 

17 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

because someone who blames and attacks you for not volunteering enough probably can't be convinced that they aren't entitled to demand that from you.

Exactly my point (emphasis are mine):

Quote

Quote

I will commit on keeping KSP-Recall from stepping on the RO's toes if the RO guys would kindly do me the favor of reporting the problems they find in a way I could reproduce.

That's conditional on someone else doing something for you and also not what I was asking (avoiding breaking things versus simple testing before release), so I will take that as a "No." If future KSP-Recall releases will not be tested with Procedural Parts, then maybe a conflict is called for here after all.

Source. 

 

17 hours ago, HebaruSan said:

the best option is to disengage

Exactly what I did.

Edited June 15, 2023 by Lisias
Damn grammars.

[HebaruSan]

The CurseForge Upload API (linked above) is, unsurprisingly given its name, for uploading mods. It does not provide a way to list mods or retrieve information about them or their releases.

The third party API that Curse previously had shut down (api.cfwidget.com) did provide these things. It has since been brought back up, but with various fields removed that would have allowed users to browse and download mods without using Curse's own software.

[Lisias]

59 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

The CurseForge Upload API (linked above) is, unsurprisingly given its name, for uploading mods. It does not provide a way to list mods or retrieve information about them or their releases.

(sigh). Ok, I will do all the work for you:

Quote

As a game developer, you can decide if you want your game users to download mods through various methods, such as a frame within your game launcher (if you have one), an in-game UI built using our advanced API options, plugins for different consoles, such as XBOX, Playstation, etc.
In addition, you can make your game’s mods available publicly on the CurseForge website, the CurseForge client, and other 3rd party mod managers out there if you choose so.

https://docs.curseforge.com/#what-is-eternal

I will say it again: If CKAN are not being allowed to index KSP add'ons on CurseForge is because authors choose not to allow it, this is not on CurseForge's shoulders.

I'm one of the authors that choose not to allow it - everything I do is already published on github and some on SpaceDock, I see no reason to use CurseForge's infrastructure (and money) if there're alternatives to do the same job.

 

— — POST EDIT — — 

(sigh²)

From my original link, I presented you with the game and dependencies API. The Upload API were depicted after that first two. Following the links on the right of the page, one can reach this page:

https://support.curseforge.com/en/support/solutions/articles/9000207877-project-distribution-toggle

Where the gore details are available:

Edited June 15, 2023 by Lisias
POST EDIT

[cineboxandrew]

It’s a moot point because nobody actually uses curseforge

Besides, I’d rather stay away from for-profit services like that. THeyre probably only weeks away from pulling a Reddit or twitter and self destructing

also its hardly “better moderated” when just like a month ago they had a huge issue with scam accounts distributing mods embedded with viruses.

[OrbitalManeuvers]

On 5/29/2023 at 2:57 PM, Dariusthedoggie said:

but have been wondering whether to use CKAN or Curseforge to install them

I would be happy to offer you a point of view not mentioned anywhere above, so far.

As a long-time redditor (when that existed) and someone who tries their best to give back to the community and help where possible with modded install issues, I can tell you with absolutely no hesitation that everyone who I've ever interacted with who got their mods from curseforge had an incomplete, out of date mod.

KSP modding can be amazing (I have 90+ in several different installs) but there are pitfalls and time sinks everywhere. The most common tool for mod installs is CKAN. I personally don't use it but if you have any hesitation about what to put where, it's better to use CKAN. The other way I recommend is completely manual which has so many advantages I can't begin to list them, but places a lot of responsibility on you.

 

[HebaruSan]

The above conversation is taking place in the context of what Curseforge is and how it operates. The shutdown and later limiting of the third-party api.cfwidget.com API was given as an example of the downsides of their business model for users. That happened in June 2019, and the API link shared above became operational in May 2022.

From June 2019 until May 2022 (about 1055 days), there was no external API access to mods on Curseforge, because Curseforge decided to make it so. This may be of interest to some users deciding whether to use it.

[Lisias]

1 hour ago, cineboxandrew said:

also its hardly “better moderated” when just like a month ago they had a huge issue with scam accounts distributing mods embedded with viruses.

Supply chain attacks are happening everywhere - if you think CF got a bad hit, you don't know what happened to Python's Pypi repository recently - not to mention Google Play, an eternal problem still without a reasonable resolution.

SpaceDock had the same problem, by the way - these guys removed a lot of entries recently, one of them with more than a year being hosted there (granted, it was not malware, it was advertising. I know because I was the one who detected it and reported it). Digging around, I found that even the github accounts linked to that add'ons were removed!!!

CKAN is so vulnerable to this problem as anyone else - all it takes to something bad to happen is a bait and switch: a nice add'on being indexed for some time, and then suddenly a new release with a custom coded malware embedded and things go south.

Not trying to sweep CF's issues under the rug, but I consider naive - or plain dangerous - thinking that CKAN is immune to this problem. They are not. I don't blindly trust even Github, I have a branch where my binaries are committed using my digital signature for reference. If something bad ever happens, we have a digitally signed commit with the original binary for comparison and inspection.

I think SpaceDock (and CKAN) should consider asking Add'Ons to be digitally signed - this would prevent Supply Chain attacks by 3rd adversarial parties, and if an author misbehaves you can flag as suspicious anything signed with that key [instead of banning the whole account due a single misbehaviour].

Edited June 15, 2023 by Lisias
Finishing a line of thought. In italics, between brackets.

[zer0Kerbal]

2 hours ago, cineboxandrew said:

nobody actually uses curseforge

CurseForge is used by many-Many-MANY more players than all other similar services.

A very limited listing of Authors who publish on CurseForge (and several are KSP devs).

• @sarbian
• @Nils277
• @Nertea
• @FreeThinker
• @blackheart612
• @IgorZ
• @NecroBones
• @Papa_Joe
• @dtobi
• @OhioBob
• @DMagic
• @Athlonic
• @EmbersArc
• @TriggerAu
• @RoverDude
• @JPLRepo
• @Snoopy20111
• @dboi88
• @Fengist
• @Snjo
• @pizzaoverhead
• @Well
• @Lisias
• @Thrimm
• @bcink
• @OhioBob
• @Shadowmage

Thank you to all authors who have added their uniqueness to the game we all love: KSP.

2 hours ago, cineboxandrew said:

probably only weeks away from pulling a Reddit or twitter and self destructing

proof? or more probably mere speculation. 

2 hours ago, cineboxandrew said:

scam accounts distributing mods embedded with viruses

only affected MineCraft and was quickly resolved with open transparency.

2 hours ago, OrbitalManeuvers said:

curseforge had an incomplete, out of date mod.

sadly true (with qualifications) and that statement is also true of CKAN.

There are so many popular mods on CurseForge that are up-to-date. I have over 3x the addons that are updated on CurseForge first as compared to the number on CKAN (and that number is rising fast). 

The simple fact of this matter for me is that CurseForge support actually listens and works with me and other authors along with providing a much more robust service that doesn't go down because it's bandwidth is limited and ran out or due to subjectively applied standards or personal affronts. CurseForge staff are professional and love the games they support.

1 hour ago, HebaruSan said:

was

CurseForge is under (relatively) new ownership, OverWolf and is actively working on improving the user experience of KSP (and KSP2 when modding is officially supported). CKAN was and continues to be a good idea, poorly executed. It screws up, even though it tries, really-really-really hard not to.

and CKAN moderators have done squat all to use the new API to integrate CurseForge into CKAN, even though been requests to do so.

 

Finally to the OP )@Dariusthedoggie( it comes down to personal preference as much as it does to what addons you choose to use and where you can find them. This becomes harder and easier due to the devs stating KSP's EOL.  Your comfort level with manually installing mods is also important hence why several authors include a 'Manual Installation' guide in their releases.  If you have a question about any of my addons - don't hesitate to reach out to me (many links in my signature) and the readme's of my addons.

Edited June 15, 2023 by zer0Kerbal
added strong red coloring